Newcomen Atmospheric Engine

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Michael Moore on 12/09/2022 13:07:14:

…

I've found what looks to be an interesting video lecture (youtube) by Mike Potts on the history of the Newcomen engine. I fell asleep watching it last night, but I plan on finishing tonight.

Thanks to Michael I found and watched Mike Potts talk and the Q&A on youtube. About 1 hour 40 minutes here.

Ironically Mike starts by asking "can everybody hear me", because sound is a problem on the video. However, I managed OK by setting the volume to 11 as per Spinal Tap, donning earphones, and concentrating extra hard.

Not much technical detail on the engines as such in the video, but a valuable insight into the confused world of early engine development. Mike starts by saying it's misty, admits to fog later, and ends up calling it a mire! A jigsaw puzzle with most of the bits missing.

I was impressed by Mike's contribution to the Newcomen Society's effort to cast light upon the darkness. I'd assumed these engines would be well-documented at the time because they were amazing, but seems not. Lots missing from the history, for example Mike points out that no-one knows how Newcomen came to understand basics like the potential of atmospheric pressure for doing practical work, or how he went about designing and developing the engine. Given how little was known at the time Newcomen's achievement is even greater than I'd thought.

The Q&A session raised many other interesting points such as the early drawings of Newcomen engines being intended to explain how the engine worked by showing all the parts in a single view; they're not technical drawings. Considerable liberties were probably taken with proportions and layout, and a Swedish installation was mentioned where the surviving engine house shows the real engine layout had a 90° bend not shown in it's drawing.

Anyway, thanks to Mike for putting the talk together: kept me out of trouble this afternoon.

Dave

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Thanks for posting the link, Dave … that’s this evening’s viewing sorted

MichaelG.

[Michael MooreParticipant @michaelmoore38916]

Might be of interest to some. I'm on chapter III of Andrew Carnegie's biography of James Watt, and I've stumbled on some info regarding a model Newcomen engine.

The short of it, while working at Glasgow university Watt found out (in 1771) that the university had purchased a model of Newcomen's engine but it had been sent to London for repairs. He promptly raised funds and requested its return. Unfortunately the model could not go past a few strokes of the piston before stopping; the same issues regarding scaling down alluded to in this thread, perhaps.

From what I can gather it's on display today at the Hunterian Museum. I wonder if it's ever tested or fired up. I did try and find out online but to no avail.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Well found, Sir

MichaelG.

.

The force is with me :

https://www.gla.ac.uk/hunterian/collections/collectionssummaries/scientificinstruments/modelnewcomensteamengine

https://jameswatt.scot/2019/08/20/newcomen-award/

 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 14/09/2022 22:28:35

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 14/09/2022 22:32:17

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I’m sure Jason could knock-out a replica from this image:

Credit: https://jameswatt.scot/2019/08/20/newcomen-award/

[Michael MooreParticipant @michaelmoore38916]

Good one, Michael.

I'm reading that Sisson, who supposedly manufactured that model, went bankrupt a number of times and even went to prison for failing to cough up money.

On reading about these tinkerers and innovators of the early industrial revolution, I'm struck by how many ended their days in poverty. It seems Sisson fared well in the end but many did not.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 12/09/2022 16:11:04:

[…] no-one knows how Newcomen came to understand basics like the potential of atmospheric pressure for doing practical work, or how he went about designing and developing the engine. […]

.

I think the Wikipedia page does a reasonable job of concisely covering that: **LINK**

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Newcomen#Developing_the_atmospheric_engine

MichaelG.

[Michael MooreParticipant @michaelmoore38916]

Just realized Mike Potts alludes to the model Newcomen engine at the Hunter museum in a post of his on this thread; apologies.

I should look into the Newcomen Society as it appears to be the best place to go to for further reading on this engine.

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Our own Tubal Cain (Tom Walshaw) was at one time editor of the transactions of the Newcomen Society.

Rod

[Michael MooreParticipant @michaelmoore38916]

Posted by Michael Moore on 14/09/2022 13:33:46:

while working at Glasgow university Watt found out (in 1771) that the university had purchased a model of Newcomen's engine but it had been sent to London for repairs.

This date is incorrect, apologies. What seems clear is that he knew of the model's existence by at least 1761, but it appears it never returned to Glasgow until 1763. Between these dates Watt's was experimenting and building around the premise of Newcomen's engine. A couple of extracts below from Carnegie on Watt's experimenting in the interim, and once the model arrived.

1.

"How did he obtain the necessary appliances and apparatus, one asks. The answer is easy. He made them. Apothecaries' vials were his steam boilers, and hollowed-out canes his steam-pipes. Numerous experiments followed and much was learnt."

2.

"The Newcomen model arrived at last and was promptly repaired, but was not successful when put in operation. Steam enough could not be obtained, although the boiler seemed of ample capacity. The fire was urged by blowing and more steam generated, and still it would not work; a few strokes of the piston and the engine stopped."

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Michael Moore on 15/09/2022 11:04:27:

Posted by Michael Moore on 14/09/2022 13:33:46:

…

…. A couple of extracts below from Carnegie on Watt's experimenting in the interim, and once the model arrived.

1.

"How did he obtain the necessary appliances and apparatus, one asks. The answer is easy. He made them. Apothecaries' vials were his steam boilers, and hollowed-out canes his steam-pipes. Numerous experiments followed and much was learnt."

…

Worth knowing that Watt did this during the Scottish Enlightenment, when Scotland led the world in scientific and intellectual achievement. He provided technical services to Glasgow University, probably the best technical university of the day, working with many luminaries such as Joseph Black who discovered Magnesium, the nature of Carbon Dioxide and Latent Heat.

In addition to being a genius, Watt was part of a leading-edge intellectual power-house, where technical ideas, books, materials and equipment where easier come by than had he been born in Tolpuddle!

Dave

[DaggersParticipant @daggers]

Andy,

with reference to the possible engine at Polgooth, have you read the book “The lives of Boulton and Watt” by Samuel Smiles published in 1865. Just in case you haven’t it says the following on the erection on Newcomen engines “erected by Hornblower at Weal Busy, or Chacewater and a third at Polgooth…..”

There is also a etching of Polgooth.

This book is available as a free download at Project Gutenburg and contains a lot of info about Newcomen and is worth a read by anyone with an interest in early engines and engineers.

[Andy CarlsonParticipant @andycarlson18141]

Posted by Daggers on 15/09/2022 13:02:00:

with reference to the possible engine at Polgooth, have you read the book “The lives of Boulton and Watt” by Samuel Smiles published in 1865. Just in case you haven’t it says the following on the erection on Newcomen engines “erected by Hornblower at Weal Busy, or Chacewater and a third at Polgooth…..”

Thanks for that. I suspect I've seen those words reproduced elsewhere but have not seen the original. I'll check it out.

One branch of my family history traces back to Polgooth miners in the early 18th century which is why I try to find whatever fragments I can to try to understand how things were back then.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Excellent reference, thank you, daggers

**LINK** https://www.gutenberg.org/files/52069/52069-h/52069-h.htm

I was delighted to find that although that’s an htm page, the Books App on the iPad converted it to pdf in a few seconds.

[ it loses the hyperlinks, but is convenient for off-line reading ]

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 17/09/2022 09:38:54

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