Newbie from Essex requiring your assistance

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Michael Belcher on 23/02/2023 08:03:17:

Thanks to your valued feedback I am getting the impression that this lathe has a Jarno taper and not a Morse.

If that is the case I have a couple of questions.

Is tooling this lathe going to be difficult, MT seems to be plentiful but I have not come across Jarno very often?

If it is difficult to get tooling is it possible, practical, desirable to change the tail stock to accept more readily available parts?

thanks

Mickb

Don't jump too quickly to conclusions because tapers are difficult to measure. Although it might be Jarno, MT0 is more likely. Can easily be tested by buying an MT0 dead centre, this example just under £5.

Don't push the taper hard into the socket without understanding how to remove it! Some tailstocks have a hole through the spindle allowing the taper to tapped out with a rod. More common is an arrangement where winding the handle back pushes the rear of the taper forwards: this type depends on taper being the right length, and/or, fitted with a tang. It may be necessary to reduce the length of a taper.

If it is Jarno, it's true that tooling is harder to source and expensive, but you may not need much of it. Almost all my tailstock requirements are met with two tools: a drill chuck, and a live centre. Also possible to make tapers with the lathe; not a beginner job, so later on.

I think the missing banjo and gears are the biggest problem. The banjo and gears have to fit, and the set of gears have to have to right number of teeth needed to cut threads. I recommend 'Gearing of Lathes for Screwcutting' by Brian Wood (who is active on the forum.) An Electronic Lead Screw might be an alternative.

On the subject of books, Sparey's "The Amateur's Lathe" is my favourite, it's only fault being he wrote it before DROs and carbide inserts etc.

Could you post a photo of the lower bed and feet please? The underneath is often more distinctive than the more-or-less similar gubbins on top, examples from lathes.co.uk:

Dave

[MickBParticipant @mickb25219]

Dave

Many thanks for the time you have put into this.

I decided to send off for a MT0 dead centre yesterday so that I could resolve this once and for all. Unfortunately you aren’t the only silly old duffer here as once I’d paid for it I noticed that it was going to be put on a slow boat from china and will arrive in the spring!!!

The taper socket is completely hollow so I should beable to get it out if I make a mistake.

If I do need a Jarno fitting is there a best place to source them from at all?

I wonder if the whole banjo idea is beyond me at the moment but I’m looking forward to having a look at

your suggested reading.

I’ll get hold of “The Amateurs Lathe” asap and start

my learning.

Are the pics posted above any good at all?

Once again many thanks

MickB

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Don't recognise the lathe, so can be of limited help.

If the lathe is British and 70 -80 years old, everything is likely to be Imperial, so metric dimensions will bbe non integer. Better to measure in Inches.

The threads are very likely to be BSW and BSF, possibly with BA used for the gib strip adjusters.

As a completer newbie, you need to buy and study some books, to learn the nomenclature of the parts..

"Basic Lathework" , by Stan Bray, "Lathework" by Harold Hall, "The Amateur's lathe" by L H Sparey, "Lathework" by Neil Wyatt, would all be contenders.

Ian Bradley's "The Amateur's Workshop" might be a useful book to have also.

You should find a set of Zeus Charts very useful (Still using mine from 1948! ).

As you progress, you will find "Model Engineer's handbook" by Tubal cain a useful reference book, since it cover many aspects.

If you have a complete set of changewheels for the lathe, you would find "screwcutting in the lathe" by Martin Cleeve.

Many of these are in the Workshop Practice Series. (One place where you could buy them would be Arc EuroTrade, or some of the other model engineering suppliers )

If you can find a local Model Engineering Society, do joiun it. You will find folk there who can help ypou.

Where are you located?

Maybe someone near could give first hand advice and help. Hnads on denonstration and guidance will be invaluable.

Reading Model Engineering magazines will also help.

Here comes a shameless plug!

The March issue of Model Engineers' Workshop contains part 1 of "Notes for Newbies" which may help you.

(It includes a poor picture naming the variousn parts of a lathe )

Presumably April will contain part 2.

Do not rush. Become familiar with the lathe, and what you can do with it. Once you grasp the most basics, you can learn by just making swarf. Then, you progress to making small tools. Not only will you learn, but they will be useful in the future.

You will need to make extra purchases, such as a digital calliper (As your first piece of measuring equipment ) and a bench grinder to grind High Speed tools. (A lathe of that age will not really be suitable for carbide tools. )

Before too long you will need Drill, and then very probably Taps and Dies (There is a book in the W P S about using those )

You have a very useful and versatile machine. With it you can do MANY things, and you will have many bnhours, years, of pleasure.

H T H

Howard

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Someone might alrgeady have suggested this, but if not, find your local model engineers club, someone there might have something with 0MT shank.

Unless you want to do screw cutting you don't need a banjo and change gears. You can go a long way feeding the saddle by hand, next up is to rig a geared motor to the lead screw, luxury is an electronic leadscrew, but that might be a bit advanced at the moment

Edit, Howard beat me to it

Edited By duncan webster on 23/02/2023 11:39:20

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

The Amateur's Lathe is an excellent guide to lathes of this vintage and to the basics of using them. My favourite too. It starts right off with basic nomenclature of the parts, how to mount and set up the lathe, and then how to use it, including the best description I know of how to grind your own toolbits from high speed steel.

You won't need the banjo and gears to get started. They were only used for screwcutting back in those days. Turning feed was normally provided by the handwheel on the right hand end of the leadscrew. Very handy, (err, so to speak) you can crank it fast for roughing cuts and can get a very fine finish with a slow hand feed using the two handed "hand over hand" method. And most small model-size threads are best done with taps and dies anyway, so the screwcutting gears can wait until you get a better understanding of things.

I think you have got yourself a bit of a special little lathe there. Certainly an unusual one.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Correection!

1958.

I maybe old but not THAT old!

Howard

[MickBParticipant @mickb25219]

Many thanks to you all for your efforts . I am very pleasantly surprised at how supportive you guys are. To put it into perspective I am a member of a forum for a very well known 1/6th scale model tank manufacturer, I put a very simple request for information out a week ago and to date have received no replies at all despite many hundreds of views.

I have this afternoon ordered the following acting on your suggestions, Basic Lathework, The Amateurs Workshop and the Amateurs Lathe.

I reside in Leigh on Sea, down in darkest Essex and unfortunately there are no Model Engineering clubs in realistic travelling distance so if it’s ok with you guys I will have to lean heavily on this forum to pick me up every time I fall over.

It is very evident just how much I have to learn so I am going to reduce my expectations for some time to come. I am in no hurry whatsoever.

I need to resolve the taper issue when possible so that I start buying the basic tooling. I’ve ordered an MT0 taper so that I can move this forward, unfortunately this part will not arrive for a few days as I mistakenly purchased it from China, I won’t make that mistake again.

The shopping list is daunting but fortunately I have a fairly decent workshop already including many of the items you suggest, strangely I also have a Zeus chart which I will know have to take a look at.

I will keep it very simple for as long as it takes so Banjo’s, changewheels, screw cutting etc will have to move off into the distance I think.

I would still like to know the heritage of my lather at some stage so if any of you stumble on any information then please shout.

Once again many thanks for your very kind support.

mickb

[MickBParticipant @mickb25219]

Hopper

I said I would update you on Tony’s response . Unfortunately I have approached him on two occasions and he has not responded at all which is a disappointment but I guess he must be very busy.

Through this forum Howard Lewis has very kindly taken me under his wing and I am due to visit him next week with my lathe and hopefully all will be revealed thereafter!

My slow boat from china has finally arrived and I can say that the lathe is definitely NOT MT0 as the tools I have are too small.

So either MT1 or a different taper altogether – over to you Howard.

Regards

Mickb

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

A couple of suggestions, maybe more.

Measure the bed to centre height (or have I missed it?). Bed length – usually measured as a maximum size when fitted between centres, too. The chuck attachment may also be enlightening.

Cheap bits on ebay can be a good source of parts to try (like the taper).

Diameter of the faceplate could be a useful measurement, as might be the hole through the spindle.

Measuring tapers (roughly) can be by measuring how far rods, of different diameters, will enter the taper – followed by some trigonometry.

Machine threads size and form have already been mentioned.

Looks like a good little lathe. Howard will certainly help and point you in the right direction.

[MickBParticipant @mickb25219]

Received a MT1 tool. It protrudes into both the headstock and tailstock by approx. 3/8th inch.

MT0 too small

any further thoughts.

thanks

mickb

[Robert ButlerParticipant @robertbutler92161]

As MT0 is too small and MT1 is too large consider Brown & Sharpe 3 or 4 or Jarno 3 all of which are sized between the MT tapers?

Robert Butler

[OldironParticipant @oldiron]

Hi Michael. Here is a link to Boxfords Know your Lathe manual. I knopw it is much bigger that your little beauty but it has all the nonclementure for the parts of the lathe. This may help you in discovering more about yours and explain to others the parts you refer top. Good luck identifying your lathe.

BTW the link is to my Dropbox and is virus & malware free.

regards

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

It's a bit strange that no-one has pinned this one down yet because it seems to be constructed from proper castings, even the faceplate looks like a proper machined casting

[MickBParticipant @mickb25219]

Yep.

it’s a mystery to me.

Howard will come to the rescue on Tuesday.

I will post the outcome

Mickb

thanks to all for your efforts

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

The standard of work would get a mention in the ME if it was one of the usual suspects who made it

[MickBParticipant @mickb25219]

My interest in entering this world of the lathe was in learning how to make rudimentary parts purely for pleasure in my later years. What I did not intend was to spend my time trying to find out what the lathe is and how/where to acquire basic tooling to accomplish the most basic of tasks.

i will ask Howard to put me out of my misery on Tuesday, failing that I will list the lathe in the classifieds and move on to a modern lathe that will allow me to concentrate on learning how to use it.

Huge thanks to all of you who have taken the time to assist me.

warm regards

Mick

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

I seem to remember Sparey remarking that he could not understand why the Jarno taper was not more widely used, since it made a lot more sense..

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

To me, the Jarno tape , having a constant angle across all sizes, seemed the obvious one on which to stadardise.

However, Morse which varies in angle as the size varies, won the day (Rather as VHS did over Betamax! )

Howard

[DustyParticipant @dusty]

Michael

Try Canvey Railway and Model Engineering Club. You can spit from Leigh to Canvey (against the wind)

I am not a member but hear good reports.

[MickBParticipant @mickb25219]

Thanks Dusty

Edited By Michael Belcher on 14/03/2023 19:45:33

[MickBParticipant @mickb25219]

If I am to make maximum use of the lathe I would like to add a 3 sheave pulley on the motor. Unfortunately I haven’t been able to find one to fit so would appreciate any advice you might have. The pulley needs to preferably be unbored, with outside diameters of approach. 45mm, 65mm and 85mm, to suit a 6mm y section belt.

 

many thanks

 

Edited By Michael Belcher on 29/03/2023 17:12:55

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

I would try and find one with the right sizes and a smaller bore,

even a scrap drill press for a tenner would do it (there are 2 or 3 pulleys in the top section)

With a bigger bore you can put an insert into it

Edited By Ady1 on 29/03/2023 17:41:56

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Michael,

You have a PM (E mails systems having failed )

Howard

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