New To CAD? No, but….

[GordonHParticipant @gordonh]

Hi SOD,

Just a brief reply, I'm unable to go into details until tonight, too busy during the day.

Steering wheel form changes according to to placement. In simplest form its the extrusion arrow. Your bottom picture is its full 3D form. It can move and rotate features, be aligned to features then move or copy other features while maintaining that alignment, rotate surfaces and features. It is really more like an aircraft joystick than a Steering Wheel!

As to explaining it, I'll try later but I'm still learning bmyself. It can be quite confusing and it's behaviour can be sensitive to the order of mouse and key strokes

Gordon

ps Siemens have some useful resources concerning it

 

 

Edited By GordonH on 17/05/2022 09:21:01

[GordonHParticipant @gordonh]

SOD,

Re your no-appearing midpoint, had you locked the plane with F3? If I use the hole command without the F3 press, hovering over the edge of a plane does not show any end or mid points initially, slowly hovering along the line around the mid point does display the mid point symbol at the cursor, together with the mid point in orange on the line. Moving off the line, these dissappear but no red alignment marks are shown as I track along thecentre. My laptop F3 key is showing its age and not responding today but my USB keyboard is elsewhere now, certainly displays when F3 is working

Gordon

[IanTParticipant @iant]

You need to lock the plane using F3 otherwise SE will not know what you are trying to reference.

Examples of locating holes are shown in this recent YouTube by Dr Seif. It's probably more advanced than you need just now but ignore the first part and just jump to timeslot 13.22 for the hole placement part….

Solid Edge Tutorial – Bearing Base – Exercise 8 – YouTube

I'll repeat my view that you need to be systematic when learning a modern 3D CAD system – jumping in without establishing the basic skills is going to be very frustrating.

Regards,

IanT

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by GordonH on 17/05/2022 10:28:05:

SOD,

Re your no-appearing midpoint, had you locked the plane with F3?…

Gordon

Yes – I've long since realised the value of F3.

Sussed it out though! The Keypoints button on extreme right of the Hole toolbar controls what points will be used to locate the Hole. Mine – don't know why – was set to circle mid-point, which is meaningless on a box. Selecting 'All' restored normal operation.

If I have any more questions I'll start a SolidEdge Query Thread to avoid confusing Gordon's effort.

Ta,

Dave

[PatJParticipant @patj87806]

It is interesting to read this thread, and compare it with my own trials and tribulations with learning 3D modeling.

One thing that comes out of these conversations is that there is the part where you learn the general approach to 3D modeling, and another part of the learning curve where you have to learn how your particular software works with all the various and often not obvious features.

So much about 3d modeling is non-intuitive in my opinion, but once you figure it out, I would say that 3D modeling is not very difficult at all, I guess depending on the complexity of the part you are trying to model.

When I get stuck, I sometimes watch videos online, and I specifically choose Solidworks, so that I can learn using native commands.  Sometimes I have to search for a tutorial in Solidworks 2012, so that the commands are exactly the same as what I use.  Diddo for 2D CAD work that sometimes stumps me.

.

Edited By PatJ on 17/05/2022 12:29:07

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Nurbs modelling basic principles to get you started.

Martin

[VersabossParticipant @versaboss]

Now, Martin, can you please show us how to produce a workshop drawing with MOI (as that's what Nigel finally wants!)

Kind regards,
Hans

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

I've had a bit of rest for my brain to recover, but may I ask a basic question please?

MOI stands for…?

[lee websterParticipant @leewebster72680]

Moment Of Inspiration

It's the name of a CAD programme. I did try the time limited demo version, but not enough time to get to grips with it. Same with Alibre last year.

Lee

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Lee –

Thank you.

Err, Oh No, no not another make of CAD! Oh for a simple life. I want to be able to get to grips with what I have, not act as a sort of reviewer of relative difficulty by trying one wretched programme after another.

I wonder if I can put my drawing-board back together?

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

In the 80's i did Electrical installation work for a Company called Nestle. There engineers had Autocad installed on 2 Computers. This was before Windows. It used DOS 5.1 from memory. It ran using a dongle to stop copywrite. Using a Puck on a board with the various electrical & engineering symbols on it. No-one could actually get there heads around the system. I asked if i could help & they let me have a look at the system. I 1st copied the program & then took it home & worked on de dongling the system , which i did after a few days.

All i can say is that Cad program sorfware has so many commands. It is simple , but also very complicated to use. There are literally 1000's of commands. Best of luck guys.

A friend who ran classes at a college rang me & asked a question of a particular command. It was to do with a interupting a circle at a specific point. He looked up to me as a genius with Cad. It was a few years after i had stopped using it. I could not answer the simple question.

So guys if you are going to use Cad , keep at it as you get rusty very quick. Especially if you are an old F-rt like me.

Steve.,

[NealebParticipant @nealeb]

One of the secrets of using any of this software, at least when you are still learning, is to understand the minimum number of commands that you need – and where to find them! – and mentally label the other 95% as "do not touch!" A lot can be done with relatively few commands but the trick is to find someone or something that can guide you through. Once you start climbing the learning curve you start to get a feel for how things work and can explore more ambitious areas of the software.

At first glance, the range of menus and commands is intimidating – you could almost do with a mask to put over the screen to hide the bits you don't need yet – or possibly ever!

I think that that is one reason why I think F360 is easier for someone starting from scratch – the number of tabs, drop-downs and so on in Solid Edge is pretty off-putting.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Nealeb on 20/05/2022 08:55:00:

One of the secrets of using any of this software, at least when you are still learning, is to understand the minimum number of commands that you need – and where to find them! – […]

.

Which reminds me that the early versions of Autocad came with a slim booklet:

How to get started in Autocad without reading the Manual

[or some-such friendly title]

MichaelG.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

The last few posts have identified one of the possible difficulties in learning to use CAD is the sheer flood of tools and commands, daunting even before you recognise by their names and squiggles, what they do, which ones to use and how to use them.

In that regard being able switch menus on and off easily is an advantage.

I see SolidEdge appears to do that by a tab system, but that does obscure common application basics like File – Open / Save / Copy / Print. That is one I think should stay like a Victorian child, seen but not heard until needed, in its usual spot top-left. I know "Print" might be a bit more demanding in CAD, so may need its own route.

TurboCAD uses a master tool-bar menu that is simple to use, but use it without care to close short-term selections after use and you can create very cluttered borders hard to search. (I think MS 'Word' is slightly similar in that respect, though without the index.) Bit like my workshop then….

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Posted by Nealeb on 20/05/2022 08:55:00:

At first glance, the range of menus and commands is intimidating – you could almost do with a mask to put over the screen to hide the bits you don't need yet – or possibly ever!

I think that that is one reason why I think F360 is easier for someone starting from scratch – the number of tabs, drop-downs and so on in Solid Edge is pretty off-putting.

F360 uses the modern approach to a UI, so you choose a basic function like an extrude, and decide as you use it whether to change the suggested result of cutting, adding, creating a new body etc. The same applies to joints, you pick joint, then the components, then the relevant features, then the type of joint, instead of getting your magnifier to find the three separate functions to make one part rotate around another. F360 actively removes things you can't do, like apply parallel or perpendicular constraints to a circle. My initial reaction on installing Solidedge was no wonder it took so long, it's reinstalled Windows 98! All those tiny icons covering the screen; one for each separate function. Although F360 does fall into the modern trap of considering tarting up the icons every couple of years as an important and exciting upgrade, which has happened recently.

Neither approach is wrong, as people think differently. The same applies to other devices; look at electronic indexers that use 4 keys to scroll up/down/across a tiny screen instead of a 16 keyboard to directly enter the number you want.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 20/05/2022 09:47:00:

…

I know "Print" might be a bit more demanding in CAD, so may need its own route.

…

Not really, but it took me a while to find out how to print from Solid Edge. Turned out to be easy! Just type ctrl-p, which is the standard print keyboard shortcut.

The menu print option is a little hidden, but is easily revealed by clicking the button in the top left corner. Look for 'Paper Print'.

Earlier in the thread Ian drew my attention to Solid Edge's "Find a Command" search box, bottom left of the CAD window. Typing 'print' into this answers the question immediately. Not perfect, but pretty good. Recommended

Dave

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by Versaboss on 19/05/2022 16:28:50:

Now, Martin, can you please show us how to produce a workshop drawing with MOI (as that's what Nigel finally wants!)

Kind regards,
Hans

Well I could do, Hans, but it would be a complete waste of time.

Martin.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

I don't know if that's meant as a sneer, as it reads, but like the Spice Girls, I know what I want.

And that is to use the system I have effectively, be it TurboCAD or SolidEdge, not keep starting yet another! (I'd not even heard of MOI until someone mentioned it here.)

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 20/05/2022 12:55:20:

.

(I'd not even heard of MOI until someone mentioned it here.)

.

That would be Martin, on page_1 of this thread.

MichaelG.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 20/05/2022 12:55:20:

I don't know if that's meant as a sneer, as it reads, but like the Spice Girls, I know what I want.

And that is to use the system I have effectively, be it TurboCAD or SolidEdge, not keep starting yet another! (I'd not even heard of MOI until someone mentioned it here.)

Because you have tried TurboCAD, SolidEdge and Alibre, with little success and have repeated that CAD in general is hard to learn, I ventured to show on multple occasions, that MoI might well help you on your way.

You have given zero feedback for that effort and casually state that you'd never heard of MoI until now.

As far as I'm concerned, that's a complete waste of time.

Martin.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 20/05/2022 12:55:20:

… I know what I want.

And that is to use the system I have effectively, be it TurboCAD or SolidEdge, not keep starting yet another! (I'd not even heard of MOI until someone mentioned it here.)

We may all be guilty of assuming Nigel's read the Cotton Reel Shoot-Out and other recent threads!

The shoot-out asked members to explain how they would use their CAD package to develop a simple object, to whit a Cotton Reel. The purpose was to compare how they did it. From memory, apologies for any I've forgotten, the thread shows Alibre, AutoCAD, FreeCAD. Fusion 360, MOI, Solid Edge and Solid Works. Be really good if Nigel were to add a TurboCAD expose!

All the software passed the cotton reel test without breaking a sweat. However, I was impressed enough by SolidEdge to give it a go, and am doing well with it. When I have time, I'm going to give MOI a go because, of the software demonstrated, it appears to be the easiest to learn. It takes a different approach that might not satisfy all my Mechanical Engineering needs and I'm not going to look at it until I've explored SolidEdge thoroughly.

Dave

.

[PatJParticipant @patj87806]

There is much to be said for choosing software that is easy to learn, and I place great value on intuitive programs.

In the 3D modeling world though, I have found that "easy to learn" does not necessarily translate into "the program will do everything that I need it to do".

So perhaps make sure the program will satisfy all your needs, as well as being easy to use.

.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

I'm sorry if you felt that, Martin, but that was not my intention at all.

I wanted something of a view of several different makes, because I was becoming bogged down; and that is what happened.

I stuck with TurboCAD for a long time because having bought it and advanced so far with it, it seemed silly to switch to a completely new one like Alibre or Fusion – though I did give them a brief go.

I had however hit something of a brick wall with TurboCAD because the more you advance in it the harder it does become to make each step further. Even some of its basic functions like printing the image is a minefield. Also, finding help with it is not easy.

Gordon has given me an introduction to Solid Edge _ I printed the instructions he sent me – and though it looks very different from TC it does seem a more logical programme to use, and it is easy to seek advice. Gordon's introductory exercises also didn't assume prior CAD experience, as the Siemens web-site seems to do; though Siems do seem to have put a lot explanatory material on it as well.

Plus, plenty of users! Indeed I think it was one of the "Solid"-stable that one my own club fellow-members used to teach, in a school. Possibly a "student edition" of SolidWorks: a crafty piece of salesmanship by the makers!

I will try SE further, and may well switch to it. From what I have seen of it so far, it does have some very good features reasonably easy to grasp.. It also appears to have a relatively much more straightforward approach to representing solids than TC's two or three methods. Though those are the programme's' internal functions they affect how you use it, and in TC they can present a lot of hidden traps for the unwary..

So "waste of time" no – I was trying to find something within my ability to learn to sufficient level to use practically.

I may well never find or use every last bell and whistle, but who uses all those in Microsoft's 'Office' programmes? Instead, what I want, is to learn a CAD programme that will help and support my model-engineering.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Dave –

A challenge, eh?

Draw a cotton-reel in 3D, using TurboCAD.

Obviously that is dead easy for TC, but for me?

I didn't try to copy the original but invented one in the same spirit. The two black lines are the original X and Y axes markers I had to make, and left in place after I had deleted the other construction lines.

How I created this, I describe below…. Along with why I had to omit the recesses in the ends.

First was open a "Normal Metric" template. That worked. And to turn on the Grid. That would not work – I think IMSI must have set the template grid-free, for whatever reason.

First mistake but not realised then. Oh well, nothing ventured…

Draw two (X, Y) axis lines (those shown) and various construction / outline rectangles. All in one Layer, Layer 0 allegedly we are not suppose to use. Why is it available then?

Intersection snap on, four circles to give the rims each a nice neat radius.

Tangent-tool: the sloping lines to generate the two conical frustra.

Lots of Trimming and deleting, join what's left as a Polyline.

Revolve that about the X-axis. Smooth the surface (TC develops cylinders as 14-sided prisms and leaves you to edit their appearance). Delete the generating polyline.

I'd needlessly drawn both "sides" of the generating elevation. I'd not thought of that until I was deleting all the temporary constructions. Oh well, no harm done.

Lo and behold, the basic reel with a 6mm dia axial hole through it. That disappears in rendering more deeply than the hidden-lines level shown there.

The end recesses?. . .

Errrr…

The original had 6 radial recesses in the ends, I believe. Certainly most moulded plastic real reels do, though not wooden ones. So mine is wooden – painted blue if rendered.

I had worked out how to create these recesses, 6 per end, from 12 extruded pie-portion plugs. That itself is not too hard, IF the grid and snaps work as they should. They didn't, I think because I was using a template rather than a "New" file with raw "Model Space".

I would have had to create the two plug sets concentrically to the reel (on the invisible X-axis), sink them the required depth then Subtract them to leave the cavities.

Now, the so-called "Inspector Bar" was all active, showing the sizes and co-ordinates of any selected entity, and allowing its move in any (X, Y, Z) direction – and angular rotation in those planes if you want – by your entered values.

The plugs would have had mid-length Reference Points. So if each was 20mm long and shown as 20mm from the end of the reel, moving it 10mm would make it touch the reel; 15mm would sink it 5mm. The reel's mid-point of known length is at (X=0), so I know where the reel face lies. Fine so far…. provided the rose pattern of "negative recesses" is concentric to the reel. Might not be the "official" method but it will work.

So: draw 2 plug sets, identify each plug X-co-ordinate and move it in X to sink the few mm into the reel end. Then subtract it to leave the recess. TurboCAD does not have "negative" extrusions, only negative co-ordinates and distances. All its extrusions are solids; hence needing subtracting to make a hole.

Only, with no grid as a guide, at this stage in the drawing the grid-snap fails so you cannot create those extrusions. Or if you can, I don't know how. Besides, despite the values displayed, trying to visualise where things are in that open space would have taxed Escher!

I should have made the plugs' base figures at the same stage as the Revolve figure. Even then I might have run into co-ordinate and entity-type difficulties.

Clearly I go no further with that drawing, so I show what I had produced. It's a cotton reel but with a solid body apart from the spindle hole!

At least I rose to the challenge even if it partially defeated me.

[VersabossParticipant @versaboss]

Posted by blowlamp on 20/05/2022 11:12:56:

Posted by Versaboss on 19/05/2022 16:28:50:

Now, Martin, can you please show us how to produce a workshop drawing with MOI (as that's what Nigel finally wants!)

Kind regards,
Hans

Well I could do, Hans, but it would be a complete waste of time.

Martin.

Sorry, Martin, but I have to come back to that. What I didn't tell is that I have the three months free trial of MOI on my computer, and up to now I couldn't find out how to do what I asked above.

It is true that MOI can do things which are difficult to do with any other CAD program (e.g. that 'Sunburst' in the example video, https://youtu.be/1B8g42hHJqg ). But for an all-purpose mechanical CAD I think it's not the right choice. You may have another opinion, that's your right.

I will be very interested to hear what SOD (Dave) says when he gets the round tuit!

Kind regards,
Hans

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