New mill user, what do I need to start.

[Robert Bowen-CattryParticipant @robertbowen-cattry70600]

Hi everyone,

I’ve had my Warco WM180 lathe for a couple of years now and have been thinking about buying a mini-mill to compliment it.

Today I’ve ordered a Warco WM16B and I’m trying to work out what I need to get started. When I ordered the lathe I bought sets of cutters and other bits that I’ve never really used, so for the mill I want to get it right from the off and only order things I will need to get started and then add as I need to.

As a basis I think I need an MT3 ER32 collet holder and some collets, but is it worth buying a whole set of collets or just get some of the more used sizes first? If the latter, what sizes are recommended.

I also need a vice, though completely unsure of what size or type would be recommended.

Same for cutters, should I buy a set, or just one or two of the more commonly used type?

I’m assuming I should get a clamp set and parallels, but do I need these from the outset, or down the line?

As you can probably tell I’m a complete noob with mills, so any and all help is gratefully accepted.

Cheers,

Bob

 

 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

You can get away with 5 or 6 collets to start with, If metrically minded then cutter shanks size sof 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 and possibly 16 will do to get started. Imperial would be 1/8,  1/4, 3/8, 1/2 and possibly 5/8.

Vice around the 80mm or 3″ wide jaw mark will not swamp the machine. I usually suggest the ARC versatile used without it’s swivel base

Clamps are handy to buy a set if you want to get on and use the machine for a specific purpose. Others seem to spend more time making tooling in which case use tee nuts and clamp bars as a way to get used to the machine.

Parallels can wait, a few pieces of bright rectangular Mild steel bar will do to start with.

Buy reasonable quality cutters as needed. I would suggest a 6mm and a 10mm 3-flute HSS to get you going

Then you can continue along the slippery slope of buying what you may need as it is needed.

[Robert Bowen-CattryParticipant @robertbowen-cattry70600]

Jason, thanks for that, very useful information.

I have been perusing the ARC website and looked at that vice. I couldn’t see myself using the swivel base and had discounted it, didn’t realise it could be removed. I was actually leaning more toward the Precision Tool Vices Type 2, it’s about £30 more but seemed to be a better option?

[Clive Brown 1Participant @clivebrown1]

I have a W16B, the vice I use mostly is the one recommended by JasonB, good fit with the machine, although I also have an Abwood which is really overkill in terms of weight.

I use an ER25 chuck, which seems entirely adequate, used with a selection of imperial collets bought from Arc; 1/4″.3/8″, 1/2″ plus equivalent metric and 16mm which doubles for 5/8″.

I find very useful a 1/4″ Jacobs chuck on a parallel shank to fit straight into, say, a 10mm collet. Makes for a quick drilling set-up.

[Robert Bowen-CattryParticipant @robertbowen-cattry70600]

Thanks Clive.

As you know it comes with a drill chuck, but having one that can be quick swapped into a collet makes a lot of sense.

Forgive my ignorance, but what is the difference between ER25 and 32 collets?

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

STOP. Pity you didn’t ask before hitting the buy button.
This question has come up fairly regularly so we have an article on out club website to cover it.
https://stalbansmes.com/milling-machine-tooling/

It is a few years since it was written but is still good advice.

[Robert Bowen-CattryParticipant @robertbowen-cattry70600]

Thanks for that, I will have a good read of the article.

It was somewhat of an impulse buy as it was 25% off, I couldn’t say no to a £500 discount. 🙂

[Martin of WickParticipant @martinofwick]

Packet of fag papers for edge finding or if you are flush, an actual edge finder. A decent DTI and Tee square to tram the bloody thing.

If you can afford ’em get carbide mill bits, the 16 is a bit of a gutless wibbley wobbley beast and I always found it works best at max RPM, which is less of a risk for your B version than the geared version. Single or dual insert milling cutter is handy as is 50mm multi insert surfacing mill, run both at high speed with lightish feeds.

Your first job can be making various tee nuts if you wish(or just buy a set as they are not particularly rewarding to make). Save the making for job specific low profile clamps, hold down clamps and two piece limitless vices as required.

I never seem to have the right vice! Vice size will depend on what you plan to make, 3 in. a good start. If doing small stuff, it can help to have a small precision vice as well (especially if you can clamp it in the larger vice). Some angle gauges and an el-cheapo tilting vice is quite handy (you can 3D print or cut up some MDF for the gauges.

Oh, nearly forgot – save up for a DRO it makes using the mill so much easier. Make your own table feed – don’t bother with the one that Warco supply.

ER 32 go up to20mm handy for 3/4 in tool shanks, I would go large.

 

[Robert Bowen-CattryParticipant @robertbowen-cattry70600]

Thanks Martin.

DRO is definitely on the list, but can wait a while as I get to grips on the machine.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

For pure milling I would go with the smaller ER25 collets but a lot of people also want to eventually use their ER collets for work holding in the lathe etc in which case the larger capacity makes for a more economical option rather than two or more sets of collets.

Things like insert cutters and face/shell mills are best on an MT or R8 shank that can go straight into the spindle for rigidity and reduced stickout to save head room.

Agree about running fast but that allows for a fast feed, just reduce depth of cut not feed (chip load). Couple of articles about that due out in the next two issues of MEW. If you don’t subscribe then a digital subscription will get you those plus the series I did a couple of years ago “milling for beginners” aimed particularly at the modern benchtop mill and it’s use. If you don’t like reading on the screen then ARC have it in paper form.

[Robert Bowen-CattryParticipant @robertbowen-cattry70600]

Thanks Jason, that makes sense regarding the collet’s, guess I need to decide if I am ever likely to want to use them on the lathe (which is also MT3). I haven’t up to this point, but I like the idea of redundancy. Need to ponder.

Will get a subscription sorted and check out your articles.

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

ER collets are so useful for tool and work holding in both the mill and lathe that not buying the full set in one go is daft. Having to wait a few days while your now £10 single collet arrives instead of just unwrapping it and finishing the job is worth the small extra expense. Especially when you realise that a collet chuck for the lathe, and the hex and square collet blocks will really maximise their usage. A set will probably come in a box if you like that sort of thing.

You’ll quickly want a drill chuck even if you have a full set of collets.

A 3 or 4″ vice is a good start to discover what will be most useful for the work that you do most. I doubt anyone who actually uses a mill has just one vice.

The available clamping kits have one big problem for small mills – the clamps, straps, blocks and studs are far too big for the work that you’ll be holding. I hate making tools when they’re readily available, but I wouldn’t buy another set. Making your own based around M6 or M8 bolts/studding is also a good way to learn how to use the machine. A few minutes careful hacksaw work will provide a couple of T-nuts good enough to hold your new vice to do that. They’ll be small enough to make the lathe face plate a bit more user friendly too.

As for cutters, if you know what you’re going to be machining then you know what size to get. But if you don’t, a set that covers 4 to 12mm will be enough to determine what you actually need.

Parallels can be improvised to start with.

Fly cutter – mine has done a lovely job of filling a space in the tool chest for twenty years. Unfortunately, it hasn’t bred anything useful with the 1-2-3 blocks that have been next to it for all that time.

[Robert Bowen-CattryParticipant @robertbowen-cattry70600]

Thanks Nick, food for thought.

 

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

I have one of the “Precision Tool Vices Type 2” from ARC Eurotrade on my SX2LP and am very happy with it. Note that you will need some means of clamping it down. Initially I used the clamp set while I made up some custom clamps. I made a pair of long bars to go in the T slot with tapped holes at the correct pitches rather tha separate T nuts.
On cutters, if cutting aluminium alloy get some un-coated ones.

Robert.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Whatever vice you buy, it needs to be rigid  Milling ia series of intermittent cuts, as each flute contacts the work. So you don’t want the cutter or workpiece waving about in the breeze.

Buy Harold Hall’s book on Milling.

DON’T climb mill!  The workpiece should alwats travel in the opposite direction to the cutter flute that is going to contact the work first.

Lock unused axes.

Beware of returning a rotating cutter across the just machined surface.

Clinb milling will grab the work and pull it into the cutter, to the detriment of both, as it takes up the backlash. Industrial machines have backlash eliminators which prevent this happening, but they COST!

Work put your approximate feed rate in terms of “Feed per Tooth”, Think in terms of 0.002″ (0.050 mm ) per tooth.

Knowing the number of teeth and the rotational speed, you can then calculate the feed rate.

You will need to modify the numbers to take account of the material being cut, and that the cutt will be dry.

Don’t let the cutter idle on the work, (The cutter will rub and genereate heat which is bad for the cutter, and might provoke work hardenimng in some materials) keep up a steady feed  Practice using both hands to turn th handwheel steadily for the feed.

With some materials, a cutting lubricant helps (kerosene for Aluminium for instance) From time to time, I add soluble oil, or neat cutting oil, from a squeeze bottle. It might improve the surface finish

HTH

Howard

[Bo’sunParticipant @bosun58570]

Hello Robert,

Another vote for the ARC “versatile” vice, I use the 100mm version and it seems OK on my WM16B (so far).  Yes, discarding the swivel base does seem a bit wasteful, but as with so many other things in the workshop “it may come in handy one day”.  A spinner handle is useful for rapid jaw travel.  The supplied handle is OK for final tightening, but a bit cumbersome for winding in & out.

If you do opt for one of the precision tool vices, bear in mind that you’ll need some way of clamping it down.  Shop made toe clamps seem popular.

[NealebParticipant @nealeb]

…and ARC have just announced some special prices on milling vices!

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Almost a no-brainer, a DRO is so useful that no mill should be bought without one.   Doesn’t need to be anything fancy, I fitted mine with a pair of these, and was amazed at the difference they made!   Mine came from ArcEuro, other suppliers available.

DRO on a mill fixes a lot of human error problems.   With dials it’s easy to lose count when turning the hand-wheels multiple times, or to get confused when reversing, and be caught out by backlash.  Apart from saving the operator from silly mistakes, even a basic DRO like mine does a lot more, notably setting reference points and measuring interchangeably in either metric or imperial.

Dial Lever Indicator and edge finder.   A wiggler set is mildly useful, though I often use a dressmakers pin stuck in a  blob of plasticine.  Rubber mallet for tapping the vice into alignment.   Home made aluminium plate on a handle to deaden the hammer blows needed to release the drawbar.   Toothbrush to remove swarf from T-slots.    A variety of T-nuts, home-made parallels, spacers, jigs and v-blocks.  I bought a set of centre-drills to locate holes accurately before twist-drilling, and with hindsight think spot-drills are ‘better’, maybe.

Much depends on what you do.  I soon realised I needed a boring head and a rotary table (with headstock, though that doesn’t get used much).   Also, a small drill chuck that could be held in an ER collet.   Less vital, angle-plate.   I bought a clamping set which is too big for most jobs but wonderful for big ones.    Several tools become desirable when you need them; though I don’t use my Stevenson’s Blocks often, they save a lot of time!   I don’t do enough repeat threading to justify a tapping attachment.  For a long time I used a digital caliper to measure bores, then decided I did it often enough to justify a bore gauge set.    I also used a fly-cutter for years before finally coughing up for a shell cutter: again, not used often, but a real time-saver when it is.   Though entirely metric in theory, I have to clamp enough inch based objects in my ER collets to be a nuisance.   Although metric ER collets have the necessary range, it’s easier to use collets close to the right size, so I’ve invested in a set of common Imperial collets.  Worth it to me, not everyone else!

Biggest waste of money was a flood coolant system, even though it works well.   Mine is rarely used, partly because it’s so messy, and partly because I don’t spend hours hacking steel!  It’s not worth the hassle for small jobs.

I’m not against sets.  Although it rankles when parts of a set don’t get used due to every right-thinking Model Engineer’s extreme unwillingness to spend money, I’ve found most things in sets do get used – eventually.  And when the need arises, there it is, in the cupboard, ready to go    Experienced machinists dislike sets because they know what they need, forgetting that beginners don’t!   Not much harm I feel in splashing out on a set for educational reasons.

Dave

[Martin of WickParticipant @martinofwick]

If you have a couple of ‘budget’ type dial gauges on magnetic bases, these can be set up on the X and Y as a poor mans read out and may save the inevitable ‘ was that three or four cranks of the handw….? Oh bugger’ moments.

And since the thread has morphed into technique, bear in mind the flimsiness of this device and the need to preserve your cutters. Take any opportunity to lighten the load on the mill by use of drill, hacksaw, ten pound maul etc. to remove as much material as possible with the cheaper tools.

[Robert Bowen-CattryParticipant @robertbowen-cattry70600]

Thank you everyone so much for your input, lots to think about and a shopping list to compile.

Have to also say a big thank you to Warco, ordered today and being delivered this Tuesday! I actually wasn’t expecting it to be so fast so now have a busy weekend making space for it in the workshop.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

If you buy a collet chuck a consideration is how much it sticks out from the spindle – that and the height of the vice will limit how tall a job you can do.  I guess smaller collets (ER25) will stick out less.  At some point you might find that you want some MT3 finger collets that go straight in the spindle when headroom is short.  I always suggest that R8 taper is better but you’ve already gone for MT.  As well as a good vice such as the Arc one, a good angle plate or two can be very useful, to which you can clamp work with toolmaker’s clamps.  My go-to angle plate cost a fiver from a tool stall, it’s ground all over and has a fence on one of the vertical edges – absolutely invaluable.

ER collets are a good way to hold work in the lathe but the usual MT/ER collet chuck isn’t.  Sticks out too far and you can’t get long work into it.  A collet holder that fixes to the spindle nose bored right through is better, quite cheap to buy or you can make your own, good practice in threading and internal taper turning.

[DiogenesParticipant @diogenes]

One thing that might be worth having at the outset is an accurate, (?’graded’) square – it’ll give you an inexpensive but reliable reference and ‘sanity check’ against which other fixtures, set-ups, and test-pieces can be gauged.

 

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

Along with Clive’s advice for a small chuck on a parallel shank I suggest an ER16 parallel shank (Ø16mm) collet holder and set of collets. This will give access to places where a larger chuck is in the way and can double up for holding any small cutters or drills up to Ø10mm. Having a through hole means a drill can often be set further into the collet than in a small chuck.

Martin C

[Howard Lewis]

On Howard Lewis Said:

 

Buy Harold Hall’s book on Milling.

 

I second that.  I went through the book making nearly all of the projects as an instructional course.  You will find that many of the items suggested above are far from essential so it will save you money while teaching a great deal.

Russell

[jaCK HobsonParticipant @jackhobson50760]

I tried the idea of only buying stuff after I came across a situation where I could have done with a specific tool. This approach doesn’t work perfectly as I have never used my angle table, Collet Blocks, boring head, sensitive drill, spindexe which I ‘needed’ when I didn’t have them.

Cheapest Chinese dial gauge off amazon is useful. Splash out maybe £30 and you can get one that measures .001mm. I use a cheap centre finder a lot.

I’d be tempted to find a nice dial gauge stand – like a noga – although cheap ones can be OK. I needed a couple of magnetic stands and it was cheapest to get them with a noga style arm… which, after fettling, work well.

6mm solid carbide  seems like a nice price point for solid carbide cutters.

Love my big shell mill.

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