New Mill questions

[Phil BoylandParticipant @philboyland37326]

Hi all, am considering getting a bench top mill and had a few questions. I have been happily milling on my S7 with a vertical slide for several years now and have been getting great results so that is not my main driver here. It would just be nice to have a permanent milling option to save any set up times and allow for bigger chunks to be machined easier. Not bothered too much about price and can be new or used and don’t care for DRO as learnt the old fashioned way during apprenticeship days. Have been looking at the usual suspects from Warco, Axminster, Seig, Chester etc and also the Myford VMB. Space is a little limited hence only a bench mount will work for me.
A few question’s :-

Do none come with auto feed as standard?

Can the Myford be sat on a wooden bench?

Is there any real improvement in having a bench mill over lathe/vertical slide?

Any other machines I might consider?

 

Many thanks

 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The larger benchtop SIEG  comes with PF.

The main advantaves over a vertical slide are:

Increased X&Y travel

Larger table surface allows for bigger vice and work piece with still more for clamps etc.

You are not working against gravity when setting up work on the table

 

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

Separate mill every time as far as I am concerned. I did some lathe milling and compared to a real milling machine it is slow and very limited. You can consider power feed on a mill as a luxury so to keep costs down most benchtop offerings come as manual only. Once you have a mill and a lathe making your own power feed is reasonably easy so don’t worry too much about starting off without it.

Martin C

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

I’m sure all of the usual vendors provide autofeed as an optional extra.
Looks like a VMB can be bench mounted – go for solid construction like a kitchen unit (ie not 2x4s) but using several sheets of thick ply which gives more rigidity than individual legs style. Not chipboard, not kitchen top.
A mill gives a much larger envelope enabling eg baseplates to be co-ordinate drilled.

 

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

I’d ply the ply too, so to speak: glue and screw the sheets together as closely as possible.

The stand itself can be made from square-section steel tube of appropriate size and wall thickness.

[HuubParticipant @huub]

I have made the table for my bench mill and lathe from 2 sheets of 18 mm thick plywood (36 mm total) that is glued and screwed together. I have placed this on top of 2 tool cabinets and bolted it (rubber mount to reduce noise) to the wall.

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Until I picked up a very cheap Centec 2B I found the Dore Westbury a reasonable pairing for the Myford, not least because it used the same nose thread.
It’s certainly not as rigid as some other offerings, and doesn’t have a table power feed as standard, but it’s certainly quite versatile, with a capacity beyond its initial appearance.
Mine is a long column one, with the column passing through a hole in the bench top.

I certainly couldn’t have done a job like this on the Centec

Bill

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Yes the VMB can mount on a wooden stand..  Mine has been working on one for 15 years odd. Can post photos if useful.

[Martin of WickParticipant @martinofwick]

Separate mill every time, gives you a whole new range of possibilities. Avoid anything with wibbly wobbly slender columns, the more mass and metal the better. In a short time of using, you WILL want a DRO. You may want to consider your own set up for power feed using a stepper motor and cheap controller. Only sayin’ because the X axis power feed supplied with my mill was ludicrously expensive and way too fast for larger work, in fact total carp.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Don’t forget about the AMOLCO ! Bolts onto the Myford bed, uses the same nose thread and 2MT spindle so all your existing tooling can be used ! If the ideas appeals contact me. Noel

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Neol’s suggestion reminds me of another advantage of a stand alone mill over a vert slide (or milling attachment)

Set up time, with a stand alone machine it is ready to go, no removing parts from a lathe and bolting on what you need and clocking it all in true. As an example if I’m making even a small batch of bolts I can turn and thread the shank then take the stock over to the mill and do the hex or square head, then straight back to the mill to repeat the process for the next one. You also don’t loose your settings as the milling cutter stays in the spindle and head stays at the same height. Think of the extra time that would take if you had to remove the topslide, fit vertical and then swap it all back again for the next.

Still also have the small table size to contend with on a combi machine

[Phil BoylandParticipant @philboyland37326]

Great stuff reading your replies folks.
Main reason is to stop the need for so much clocking in really. Not that I mind as I like the challenge, but sometimes you just want to mill it quick and it needs setup first.
I was looking at the Dore Westbury. Lovely looking piece of machinery and could be tempted I must say.

[Phil Boyland]

On Phil Boyland Said:

Great stuff reading your replies folks.
Main reason is to stop the need for so much clocking in really. Not that I mind as I like the challenge, but sometimes you just want to mill it quick and it needs setup first.
I was looking at the Dore Westbury. Lovely looking piece of machinery and could be tempted I must say.

I suppose it could be described as wibbly wobbly, certainly it’s nothing like as rigid as a more substantial machine, so it depends on your needs and productivity requirements.
The round column has the disadvantage of losing its indexing as you move the head up and down.
On the other hand, that can be used to your advantage, with care, as it can allow longer cuts than the table’s traverse.

Bill

[Martin of WickParticipant @martinofwick]

I was looking at the Dore Westbury. …

… a Blighty productions cottage industry fabrication….I would take the opportunity to actually see one and try it out before you decide. You may find a good one, or not.

Guess it depends on what type of jobs you have in mind. Would suggest that as with deciding on a lathe, but more so with a mill, go large or even larger if you can.

There is some good news, with advent of carbide milling cutters, the higher speeds of smaller imported machines can be put to use, if you can stand the ear shattering noise of a gear head machine running at 2500 rpm (other drive types may be available).

 

[Martin of WickParticipant @martinofwick]

Not meaning to ‘dis Westbury milling machine, but as they were essentially home made, the quality can be rather variable. As I discovered.

wobblyness was mainly a reference to my replacement, a WM16. IMO, Barely on the limit of what is acceptable for a milling machine. It mostly does what I want and when run at high speeds with small cuts produces satisfactory small work. Make sure you use earplugs followed by ear defenders if you value your hearing though!

[Hugh Stewart-Smith 1Participant @hughstewart-smith1]

hello Phil,

Yes, some mill do come with x-axis power feed.

you could try us at Amadeal as we currently have exactly that, sourced from Weiss in China.

Kind regards

Hugh

Amadeal Ltd

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

If you mount the machine on a ply topped bench, doubling the thickness, incrteases the stiffness by a factor of 8, so well worth doing!

Even better if the bench top is steel to spread the load.

Howard

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

A big difference with even a small conventional mill over the vertical slide on a Myford that hasn’t been mentioned is rigidity. This has an effect on accuracy and surface finish

You haven’t said what you are machining. Big lumps, Thin sheet, Steel, light alloy. plastic? Big cutters or small?

This makes a difference. I’m primarilly an “electronics” user so the lathe (ML7) and mill support that. So I’m mainly milling light alloys, brass and plastic. This includes milling panels and boxes. So travel and high speed (small cutters) are more important to me than power or rigidity. I’m also short of space so got a Sieg SX2LP.

It’s mounted on a modern, narrow, 4 drawer oak cabinet (SWMBO chnged her mind about the size she wanted) This did need some structural improvements. I glued and screwed a ply panel on the back to stiffen it laterally. The top is larger than the base so a length of angle wnt at the back between the top and the bodysandwiching the ply. The front of the top is a weak point due to the opening for the drawer. So anothe bit of angle was fitted inside glued and screwed to the top, two uprights and the piece across the top drawer opening. This was a pain to set up but makes a big difference. Mill bolts through the top into a couple of 25mm box sections underneath.

One thing I’d avoid, having used one before, is anything with a round pillar.

Robert.

[Phil BoylandParticipant @philboyland37326]

Ok so materials wise it will be aluminium, brass or steels and I doubt it will ever be anything very large. Cutters I have used successfully on the S7 and hope to still use would be up to 25mm hss, carbide and inserts. Have a sturdy bench already so that part of the conundrum is sorted.

Out of interest can someone please give me the full dimensions of a Dore Westbury mk2(incl motor) so I can see if one would fit. Still not sure what direction to go but it all helps my choices.

 

[mgnbukParticipant @mgnbuk]

One thing I’d avoid, having used one before, is anything with a round pillar.

Not all round column machines are the same – the excellent Emco FB2 (and its Taiwanese clone bretheren) has a round column but also a substantial key that keeps head alignment & IIRC the Hobbymat small mill has also.

Genuine Emco badged FB2s can be very expensive, but the clones come up from time to time for reasonable money. I am on my second and, while having some shortcomings that can be worked around, I don’t see anything available at the moment of similar size that would make me want to change.

Nigel B.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

A round pillar Mill/Drill (Such as a RF25)can be aligned by using a laser aimed at a line on a wall about 3 metres away.

I used a cheap laser bought from a DIY store (B&Q in UK) at the time it cost less than £10.

The late Stan Bray said that this would align the Mill to within 0.001″, and i never found any reason to disagree with him. (The drill, used a check, always goes down the hole quite easily!)

On my machine, I made and fastened to the head, and grooved steel plate into which the laser unit was a snug fit.

If a dovetail column machine had been available at the time, I would have bought one.

Howard

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

How well does the ‘laserline on wall’ method really work?

I would imagine that the accuracy depends on the mill column and the line drawn on the wall must both have to be vertical (or on the same plane parallel to each other) to a high degree of accuracy. The bench or stand the mill is on has to be solid too.

Ian P

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

In my case, they are!

As I said, having drilled a hole before moving the head up or down, after aligned, using the laser, the drill edasily enters the hole again.

As Stan said, it aligns within 0.001″ (25 microns for those who are metricated )

The line is drawn where the laser is on the target surface, so the laser beam and the target align coincide.

A misalignment, the width of a pencil line, over 3 metres, as actually a very small error

If the pencil line is 0.5mm wide, over 3 metres, the angular error 0.024 degrees, which is 1.44 minutes of arc.

Howard

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

But what happens if the line (or mill column) are not vertical?  (I accept yours are)

Ian P

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Head would move progressively to one side or the other the further it went up the column if one or both were not parallel

As the OP says he does not have much room, that could indicate a small workshop so the error of line to laser thickness will be greater the closer the line is to the machine.

At the end of the day it’s just a faff to line things up when they can be easily avoided with a dovetailed column.

[Author]

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