New machines for workshop

[DaedalusParticipant @daedalus]

I'm looking to buy some new machines as a retirement present to myself. I'm in the very fortunate position of having a budget of £10K each for the mill and lathe and have been looking at various machine suppliers. You are a very knowledgeable lot on the forum and was wondering what people thought of the Chester Machine Tools kit. Not the hobby stuff, looking at smaller industrial.

Thanks, Deadalus.

[DaedalusParticipant @daedalus]

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

In my experience the smaller (300mm-450mm swing) industrial Chester Lathes are much of a muchness with the larger Warco's and with the Optimum's that Excel import; all perfectly good lathes which you'll be very satisfied with once set up.

This said, you would definitely be able to get a better lathe for the money be which is more feature rich and/or massive by buying used from a reputable dealer, but that's set against risk of faults developing or just wear, and I'm sure you've already weighed that up in deciding to buy new.

 

I would assume that the small/turret mills are a similar deal where Chester don't have a definitive lead over their direct competition, but can't justify that against first hand experience, as the new mills I've used have been XYZ's (even in workshops where they bought Chester or Optimum lathes). I don't know why exactly, but it might have been XYZ's good "ProTrak" style conversational CNC terminal offering which made them more versatile as a manual/CNC cross over.

From experience I would strongly suggest getting a turret mill with an ISO40 taper if you can fit one in, it opens up serious high quality tooling for very reasonable prices on the used market, and gives you the stiffness to use the machine's power to its fullest (you feel the benefit mostly when cutting gears or using a face mill).

 

Ultimately in your shoes, I would draw up a list of the machines you want and the minimum spec, then email or ring all the importers and (new) dealers going "this is what I want, what's your best offer all in?" and maybe angle for sweeteners like tooling or DRO fitment.

With 20K and that tactic, I would expect to be able to walk out with a decent Mill, Lathe, Surface Grinder, and several ancillaries (Box Column Drill, Bandsaw(s), Dividing Head compatible with your mill, Universal/D-bit Grinder, Pedestal Grinder, Press etc.) by leveraging the fact you're willing to drop a big chunk of change.

Edited By Jelly on 22/10/2022 23:30:57

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

First build a bigger shed….

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

Posted by Bazyle on 22/10/2022 23:30:28:

First build a bigger shed….

Yeah!

With the cash Daedalus has available he could probably spend half on getting wholly satisfactory machines and half on adding extra space for the 30+ years of stuff which will be made, needed or otherwise accumulated in pursuit of their hobby.

In retrospect I definitely regret not expanding my workshop when I had the chance, but maybe I'm just a terrible hoarder.

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

Posted by Jelly on 22/10/2022 23:36:44:

In retrospect I definitely regret not expanding my workshop when I had the chance, but maybe I'm just a terrible hoarder.

Whereas I consider myself to be an excellent hoarder!

[PeroParticipant @pero]

Hi Daedalus

I can't comment on the Chester tools range as I am not familiar with them. I live in Australia.

I assume you already have a big enough shed, noting that the bigger machines do need additional room for installation and for working around, in addition to their footprint. A very solid floor is also a requirement.

I was in a similar position to you some years ago with a similar budget ( corrected for inflation ) and purchased a larger turret mill with an NT40 ( ISO40? ) taper and 5 HP motor ( sort of a Bridgeport on steroids ). It weighs about 1.5 tonnes bare.

Note that BT40 tooling can be converted to NT40 via the use of a suitable adapter. This can be useful with BT tooling becoming much more available and frequently cheaper than the equivalent NT tooling.

I also purchased a 410 by 1000 lathe – 7.5 HP and close to two tonnes bare with the integral cast iron base. Apart from its large mass and stability this lathe has the advantage of a large through bore on the spindle and a gear box that will do an enormous number of threads

Both were Australian sourced and branded ( obviously as I live in Australia ) Chinese machines although critical parts were made in South Korea. I expect similar products would be available in Britain.

Advantages of the bigger machines – you can do more things more easily. Little things in my case are not a problem as I have smaller machines for smaller jobs.

Disadvantages – apart from the space issue mentioned above, 3 phase power is required, costs for tooling and accessories are higher ( much higher for some items ) and everything is much heavier. Lifting equipment will likely be required for changing chucks, lifting rotary tables and vices – if not now then in a few years!

Looking back I am very satisfied with my decision to buy these machines and hope that you will be similarly happy with whatever machines you decide upon.

Pero

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

I would reserve a substantial chunk of your budget to tool up the lathe and mill. People often say they finish up spending as much again on accessories and tooling. Milling accessories can consume quite a lot of money for dividing head, rotary table, vices of various types and clamping systems, chucks and collet systems and much more. Lathes probably have a smaller accessory shopping list but consider a DRO on both machines, I have never heard anyone regret purchasing a DRO.

Mike

[DaedalusParticipant @daedalus]

Thanks all for your comments.

I will be replacing an old Colchester roundhead Triumph, I've quite a bit of 25 x 25mm tooling for it that I want to keep hold of, hence looking at larger machines. In the 30 odd years I have had it I have only used the spindle bore of 2" a couple of times, but I really needed it then and I know I would need it if I bought a machine with a smaller spindle. So bigger it is then.

I have had quotes for the Optima and Knuth machines and really the increase in price over an equivalent Chester, (Warco no longer list the size I want, supply issues I suppose) really make them none starters. A couple of people have mentioned getting a milling machine with an (ISO) 40 taper and I had come to that conclusion myself. For some reason and I don't know why, I really dislike R8 tapers, I suppose it's to do with the number of rubbish Bridgeports I came across in various maintenance workshops.

With regards to the cost of the additional bits and bobs, the dividing head, rotary table etc, etc are sort of budgeted for, the lathe and mill will take just over half of it. I suppose I will be looking at tool and cutter grinders as well and a collet chuck for which ever machines I go with. I have loads of cutters and collets for the current Mill/Drill (Chester Super Lux) I have now, which I got 2nd hand from a guys workshop who'd passed away. I'm probably going to keep it and CNC it as a project, as its in good nick apart from 4 apprentice drilling marks, but it's too small really.

If anyone can recommend a decent tool grinder, rotary table and dividing head I'd appreciate it. As I have 3 phase I'm not limited on what I can get in that respect. I built the workshop (garage as the wife insists on calling it) 30 years ago, its about 7 x 7 mts, but I put a pit in it so loose about 4 sq mts of that. I'm thinking that as I no longer service my own cars I will fill it in. I then have the advantage of the 2 ton runway beam that's over it being useful for positioning the lathe and mill and for lifting off chucks, rotary tables etc.

The shed will be the problem when we downsize, but I'm not going to let that worry me yet. It will have to be built to fit what I've got, just need that welding table as well;-}

Edited By Daedalus on 23/10/2022 13:57:07

[Colin HeseltineParticipant @colinheseltine48622]

Two years ago I replaced my Chester Super Lux with a Gates PBM2000. This is a Bridgeport sized machine with 3HP main motor and it came with X and Y power feed, two axis DRO, powered drawbar and auto lubrication. I have since fitted it with powered knee and DRO on the knee and quill. Very happy with the machine.

More recently I replaced my Colchester Student with a Colchester Triumph 2000 lathe. I did not particularly have a budget but ending up spending 1/2 your budget. Extra tooling for both have pushed up the expenditure a little (Lot).

Colin

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

It would be really cool to use the pit for eg a rise up welding table giving you some extra manoeuvring space when down.

[DaedalusParticipant @daedalus]

Posted by Colin Heseltine on 23/10/2022 16:22:12:

Two years ago I replaced my Chester Super Lux with a Gates PBM2000. This is a Bridgeport sized machine with 3HP main motor and it came with X and Y power feed, two axis DRO, powered drawbar and auto lubrication. I have since fitted it with powered knee and DRO on the knee and quill. Very happy with the machine.

More recently I replaced my Colchester Student with a Colchester Triumph 2000 lathe. I did not particularly have a budget but ending up spending 1/2 your budget. Extra tooling for both have pushed up the expenditure a little (Lot).

Colin

Hi Colin,

where did you get the Gate PMB2000 from? Was it new or used? I had a quick look online but couldn't find much, gatetooling.co.uk seems to not want to load.

I have seen so many used machines that have been in a word cr*p, that I am considering the new ones. I cannot be bothered trying to sort out an older machine if it has issues. If I get to my allotted time of 82, then I will have had 16 years use out of them and they won't be used that hard really, so even chinese machines should last the course. My middle lad will be getting them when I pop my clogs. With regards to the milling machines I'm looking at I'm really after a knee type turret mill with the addition of the horizontal spindle, just trying to cover everything off really. I'm not in a real hurry so I'm happyish to wait a while. The only issue with that is if the £ goes base over apex against any currency really.

I did consider a Colchester Master VS3250 but it only has a 42mm spindle bore, so I will be looking for a recentish good condition VS2500 or the Harrison V390. I like the idea of the VSD as I would put one on anyway. I have a brand new unused but older 5.5KW Danfoss that I'd put on, I know its a bit small for both the VS2500 and the V390, but I can keep an eye on the load easily enough.

Cheers.

[DaedalusParticipant @daedalus]

Posted by Bazyle on 23/10/2022 17:31:32:

It would be really cool to use the pit for eg a rise up welding table giving you some extra manoeuvring space when down.

Bazyle,

Now that is a thought, a realy good thought. I hadn't even considerd doing something like that. The pit is dry enough, it has the frame for my motorcycle down it at the moment, which will be coming out soon for the rebuild, so I can get it to the IOM TT next year. In fact If I do it right I can use it as a motorcycle lift at the same time. I don't have access to AutoCAD LT anymore, so I will have to start learning Fusion 360.

But I will have to consider hard because it would be quite a good place for the footings for the new lathe.

 

Edited By Daedalus on 23/10/2022 17:44:47

[Colin HeseltineParticipant @colinheseltine48622]

Daedalus,

I bought my machine second hand. It was 8 years old according to date on plate, but still had the shipping grease on the head. Not a scratch or sign of use on the bed. just a single small circular stain. Bought from traceymachinery.co.uk. He has a lot of Bridgeport type machines in stock.

I also bought the lathe from him. The lathe was significantly older.

Cheers.

Colin

 

Edited By Colin Heseltine on 23/10/2022 19:41:40

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

I would do your research before considering an Optimum. Their reputation for quality is not great. They may be labelled "Germany" but they are made in China. The parent company may be based in Germany, or have a PO box there etc.

[HollowpointParticipant @hollowpoint]

If you have that kind of money to spend why buy Chinese? I'd forget Chester.

You might as well look for a mint/very good Colchester lathe and Bridgeport mill. Hell for your budget you could probably buy something Swiss.

Edited By Hollowpoint on 25/10/2022 10:05:44

[BufferParticipant @buffer]

You could buy a new Harrison M300, that’s a very nice lathe.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

If the OP already has a Triumph an M300 is smaller. The only improvement option I can see is a newer Triumph or Gate copy (provided they are complete copies I've not checked). The M300 built in metric transposition is very good but the Colchester is even more accurate, probably ends up with less error than a metric leadscrew on a hobby lathe.

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

For the kind of money that we're talking about here, it occured to me that contacting a smaller manufacturer direct wouldn't be out of the question.

​

The one which jumped to mind was TRENS SK a.s. known as TOS Trencin before the fall of the wall, they're still making new machines, the prices aren't insane from what I've heard, and they're some of the best medium to large lathes ever designed, right up there with your DSG's, Lang's, Monarchs and American Pacemakers.

The SN50/SN500 seems to fit the bill, and is available in motors from 5.5kW to 7.5kW and spindle bores up to 105mm, and you get the 4-way joystick controlled infinitely variable, automatic stop power-feed system which is pure luxury.

Sure there's a faff element to a DIY import, but a good logistics company should be able to take the transport and customs bit off your hands as combined shipping and customs agent.

​

The other obvious two are:

• Dean, Smith and Grace themselves, who sell factory rebuilt examples of their original (and excellent) line-up,and
• (as others have pointed out) the 600 Group (Harrison/Colchester/Hardinge/Bridgeport) who are still selling new.

I suspect that a rebuilt (and warrantied) DSG or a new "Trens" ex Slovenia would both be cheaper than and more satisfying than a new Colchester (or a new Chester).

[VicParticipant @vic]

Posted by Buffer on 25/10/2022 10:16:19:

You could buy a new Harrison M300, that’s a very nice lathe.

They had four at my last place, my favourite was a long bed version. Lovely machines. I might get a lightly used one though as the new ones are I believe made in Poland.

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

Posted by Vic on 25/10/2022 13:05:23:

Posted by Buffer on 25/10/2022 10:16:19:

You could buy a new Harrison M300, that’s a very nice lathe.

 

They had four at my last place, my favourite was a long bed version. Lovely machines. I might get a lightly used one though as the new ones are I believe made in Poland.

I don't really get what you mean…

The Poles have long had an excellent reputation for making reliable, durable and accurate machine tools; branded variously as Poleba, Polameco, and Toolmex, most lathes were made by Fabryka Maszyn Andrechowska.

I'm not sure who did/does the mills, but they were a direct copy of the FNC25/32 design produced across multiple Soviet/Former Soviet states, which is amongst the best "turret type" milling machines in existence.

Ironically more common in the USA and Canada than here, where the Czechs with their direct land border with Austria seem to have cornered the pre-Taiwan (pre-pre-China?) market for import machine tools.

Edited By Jelly on 25/10/2022 13:47:55

[DaedalusParticipant @daedalus]

Jelly, re your post and comment

"I suspect that a rebuilt (and warrantied) DSG or a new "Trens" ex Slovenia would both be cheaper than and more satisfying than a new Colchester (or a new Chester)."

I will have a look at the Trens tomorrow, but I suspect they will be out of my price range. The only one I could find on line was 20 years old and $9,000 almost. I will also give DSG a call, but I think that the majority of their machines, beautiful as they are, will also be too rich and probably a bit bigger than I want. I always recall the headstocks being huge and I'm not sure if they made metric versions.

I have actually used a TOS lathe previously, when I was in the Merchant Navy. One of the ships I was on in the very early 80's, was one of 5 built in Poland and they had TOS lathes on them. They were as I recall quite big machines with probably a 2 mtr bed on them. But the machine had everything you could wish for on a centre lathe. Lots of speeds, lots of threading, and I'm sure a high speed lever for the feeds. You could get the saddle from one end of the bed to the other in seconds. Though I may be mixing that one up with a Stanko on a ship built in Russia.

The less said about that ship the better, although the workshop was really well equipped, it needed to be. I have never had a ship fall apart as often as that one did. One memorable job was having to machine a wear sleeve out of 4" mild steel bar, (it was all we had) to keep the sh*t pump from leaking from the main shaft gland. The leak was that bad it leaked more raw sewage into the waste tank room than actually got pumped over the side of the ship. (When you could still do that sort of thing). It ran like that for a couple of months before I left it. I do remember having to cut off the length of bar with a hacksaw as the power machine had no suitable blades.

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

Posted by Daedalus on 25/10/2022 21:04:36:

Jelly, re your post and comment

"I suspect that a rebuilt (and warrantied) DSG or a new "Trens" ex Slovenia would both be cheaper than and more satisfying than a new Colchester (or a new Chester)."

I will have a look at the Trens tomorrow, but I suspect they will be out of my price range. The only one I could find on line was 20 years old and $9,000 almost. I will also give DSG a call, but I think that the majority of their machines, beautiful as they are, will also be too rich and probably a bit bigger than I want. I always recall the headstocks being huge and I'm not sure if they made metric versions.

My guess is that a UK/European Manufactured/Re-Manufactured lathe would probably be pushing at the the limits of your budget, but by the same token you are in the position where you could actually spend your whole lathe budget on a lathe, and be up and running from the day you take delivery, so maybe it's worth it?

The DSG's and the TOS/Trens's are both pretty heavy beasts, just massive (literally) amounts of cast iron used everywhere (especially in the headstock); my TOS toolroom lathe weighs in a 2 tonnes for a 320 x 1000 capacity, and a 13"x36" DSG is about 2.8 tonnes – both comparable in size with a Warco GH1330 which weighs about 580kg.

To match or slightly exceed the Triumph in size (Trens SU50 or DSG Type 15), you're looking at 3.8 – 4.5 tonnes with either of those brands.

DSG did do metric lathes and I would think most re-builds get new metric leadscrews and nuts…

As a near-complete aside in relation to DSG and leadscrews; I did see one (It could have been a Lang, but I'm pretty sure it was DSG) configured with dual leadscrews, a selector, two half-nut levers, and an interesting dual layer thread chasing dial, unsure if that was a factory special or a user improvement but always thought it was cool.

 

Posted by Daedalus on 25/10/2022 21:04:36:

I have actually used a TOS lathe previously, when I was in the Merchant Navy. One of the ships I was on in the very early 80's, was one of 5 built in Poland and they had TOS lathes on them. They were as I recall quite big machines with probably a 2 mtr bed on them. But the machine had everything you could wish for on a centre lathe. Lots of speeds, lots of threading, and I'm sure a high speed lever for the feeds. You could get the saddle from one end of the bed to the other in seconds. Though I may be mixing that one up with a Stanko on a ship built in Russia.

The TOS's from Trencin, the polish brands from Andrechowska, and the Stanko's all shared the rapid travel feature as part of their generally high specification, the difference (to my knowledge) is that the TOS and Polish lathes have a 4-way joystick on the apron, whilst the Stanko has a conventional feed selectors (two-position, or three when equipped with power top-slide) driven off the feed-shaft, and the rapid feeds are push-button controlled running a separate 3-phase motor mounted directly to the side of the apron.

 

Edited By Jelly on 26/10/2022 13:35:42

[DaedalusParticipant @daedalus]

Jelly,

I'm waiting on prices at the moment from Trens.

I have found a DSG 1307 * 40 for £7K but DSG, (Now in Preston), think a rebuild would be between £5K & £10K. Then there is the hassle of getting it there etc.

The same site with the 1307 also has a Colchester VS 2500, it's in budget but is almost twice as old as I am really looking at.

I have time to be picky so will carry on looking, I must admit though that the Trens SN 32 looks good, although I would have to check if I can get a toolpost to fit it that will take the 25mm tooling.

Cheers.

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

Posted by Daedalus on 26/10/2022 14:13:47:

Jelly,

 

I'm waiting on prices at the moment from Trens.

I have found a DSG 1307 * 40 for £7K but DSG, (Now in Preston), think a rebuild would be between £5K & £10K. Then there is the hassle of getting it there etc.

The same site with the 1307 also has a Colchester VS 2500, it's in budget but is almost twice as old as I am really looking at.

I have time to be picky so will carry on looking, I must admit though that the Trens SN 32 looks good, although I would have to check if I can get a toolpost to fit it that will take the 25mm tooling.

Cheers.

Glad to have been somewhat helpful.

If you did weigh things up and go the DSG route (with that 1307 or another similar lathe), then I can recommend both "R.R. Memmory Haulage" and "Hansard Haulage" for that kind of thing, moving heavy objects including machine tools, and Hiab-ing them on and off the wagons is their bread and butter so they can be just left to get on with it quite safely.

R.R. Memmory in particular also have some specialised smaller vehicles and trailers for delivering very heavy objects to locations that you'd normally only be able to access by car, which might be of assistance with the final leg to your workshop.

​

Regards a tool-post for the Trens SN32, my TOS S32 has the same Multifix B offered with the SN32 which works very well with 25mm tooling (25×130 is the "standard" holder for that size of toolpost, but it's sometimes easier to use the 32×140 holders for 25mm tools as they're less snug).

I believe the Cross Slide and Top Slide used on the SN32 is the same design as was used on the S32, and only the apron differs between them (on that assembly, there's other major differences).

Whilst it is possible my holders may have been modified by the previous owner to allow them to go lower to get on center with 25mm tools, but it doesn't look like they have; so I suspect Trens is just being conservative in their tech spec's.

Edited By Jelly on 26/10/2022 17:13:19

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