New lathe arrived today : The ongoing saga

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Funny enough I just looked at my Unimat 3 parts drawings and that uses exactly the same construction. Mine and many many more have given years of trouble free service so that can rule out feeble design.

The Emco does use a larger dia grub screw so if it lets go again may be worth tapping out for something abit larger

The mention of big drills by hopper and Michael saying treat things gently should be noted, that larger 16mm capacity drill chuck that you now have will be very tempting to use to push too large a drill for the machine!

J

 

PS Feed screw bush is also identical

Edited By JasonB on 26/03/2016 08:02:34

Edited By JasonB on 26/03/2016 08:05:15

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by JasonB on 26/03/2016 08:01:48:

… so that can rule out feeble design.

.

Primary definition of 'feeble' = 'lacking physical strength'

MichaelG.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by JasonB on 26/03/2016 08:01:48:

Funny enough I just looked at my Unimat 3 parts drawings and that uses exactly the same construction. Mine and many many more have given years of trouble free service so that can rule out feeble design.

The Emco does use a larger dia grub screw so if it lets go again may be worth tapping out for something abit larger

The mention of big drills by hopper and Michael saying treat things gently should be noted, that larger 16mm capacity drill chuck that you now have will be very tempting to use to push too large a drill for the machine!

J

PS Feed screw bush is also identical

Edited By JasonB on 26/03/2016 08:02:34

Edited By JasonB on 26/03/2016 08:05:15

I'd picked up that Brian may be a bit "firm" at times from the dog clutch popping out and the fact that he could move the saddle about with the lead screw out of line.

Mmmm Bay lathe 22kg Hobbymat 45kg. I did have a bit of trouble with the dog clutch on that. After some metric screw cutting via reversing the lathe it wouldn't engage as the end of the tongue had spread a little. The Oz distributor doesn't sell them for some reason but they do seem to be available in the UK – at a cost.

John

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[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 26/03/2016 08:09:20:

Posted by JasonB on 26/03/2016 08:01:48:

… so that can rule out feeble design.

.

Primary definition of 'feeble' = 'lacking physical strength'

MichaelG.

Is there also a definition of cheap and nasty? which was also used to describe the design

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by JasonB on 26/03/2016 10:23:43:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 26/03/2016 08:09:20:

Posted by JasonB on 26/03/2016 08:01:48:

… so that can rule out feeble design.

.

Primary definition of 'feeble' = 'lacking physical strength'

MichaelG.

Is there also a definition of cheap and nasty? which was also used to describe the design

.

Jason,

Possibly … But I did not use that phrase, so I decline to be drawn-in to the discussion [despite your attempt at baiting me].

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 26/03/2016 10:47:28

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Cheap and nasty – what would happen to the price of it if they did everything in the same way as a mini lathe or better still an even better lathe. Look what happened to the C1, mind you that looks better in part because of the plastic cover over the head – the tooling for that would cost a bit and add to the cost.

Pay peanuts and etc…………………………………….. What could be said here is that a grub screw could have been bigger – it seems. This sort of dial and handle location often has this problem. I'm sure I have had the same thing happen on at least one lathe. Easy to fix if it becomes a persistent one.

John

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[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Hopper on 26/03/2016 05:55:22:

It looks like a pretty cheap and nasty design

Following is being said with respect and without prejudice or baiting or anything else. I just find it funny:

In History: The Germans said this about the Brits, and the Brits said this about the Americans, who said this about the Japs, and now the same thing is being said about the Chinese. That is all this is all about…just because it wasn't made here complex. So I guess that the Australians can say this about everyone..'sweaping statement' – tongue firmly in cheek

Jasons comments on Unimat, makes me wonder how the above comment would have been phrased if it was referred to a Unimat, especially on a Unimat forum…where they possibly paid more to get less? I guess they will just say that it a cheap Chinese copy.

Thanks for posting how you fixed it Hopper. Hope to read more about his journey here or on some other thread.

Ketan at ARC.

Edited: Corrected Austrains (sorry you guys) to Australians.

Edited By Ketan Swali on 26/03/2016 12:20:28

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

People have this idea about getting IDEAL stuff, when i do agree some direction is useful, you have to adapt your expectations to what the market can provide for you at a given price, thats what it all comes down to.

Sometimes you can pick up a rare find at a low price, other times you just have to accept what the retailers will sell..

Michael W

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Ketan, surprised to see you beating L out of the Aussies. (This is supposed to be a joke!)

Hopper typifies what is best about the hobby; being willing to give practical help to a fellow model engineer who has a problem.

Brian is lucky to have such a good mate relatively close by.

I am sure that lots of us, reading this long thread, have learned something. I certainly have.

Full marks to Brian for persevering. Now, he has a lot more confidence, and knowledge, both hard won, but invaluable.

Howard

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by Ketan Swali on 26/03/2016 12:18:42:

Posted by Hopper on 26/03/2016 05:55:22:

It looks like a pretty cheap and nasty design

Jasons comments on Unimat, makes me wonder how the above comment would have been phrased if it was referred to a Unimat, especially on a Unimat forum…where they possibly paid more to get less? I guess they will just say that it a cheap Chinese copy.

Thanks for posting how you fixed it Hopper. Hope to read more about his journey here or on some other thread.

Ketan at ARC.

Edited: Corrected Austrains (sorry you guys) to Australians.

Edited By Ketan Swali on 26/03/2016 12:20:28

The Unimat is a different animal Ketan. More of an instrumentation lathe complete with follower type screw cutting which actually suits that sort of thing. Reckoned to make a good watch and clock making lathe too but I wonder what people expect to make on them when they buy one. When I sold mine I demo'd it cutting low diameter (1/2&quot steel to a bloke who was rather please because he only really wanted it to make small plastic bits and pieces. It was a pretty precise lathe too. The head design is brilliant but might cause some problems if left hand cuts were taken on it especially screw cutting.

People need to get their heads around expectations and cost. As a for instance take the baby, the proxons and the hobbymat. From a user point of view they all head in different directions and have different levels of attention to detail. The Hobbymat of old is now the SU300 and costs just short of £1200. No idea where they are made now but doubt if it's still in Europe. A lot of the cost is probably down to detail and some might be due to trading on the name or look in this case. The larger Proxon is a similar price. Both weigh around twice the weight of a baby lathe – weird what, clearly totally unnecessary or is it? I do have a couple of baby lathe parts bought from Arc. They are just slides and will do their job with some limitations. I wouldn't call the design nasty just cheap. It's very clear why they have been made as they are. Cost and that's it. Some other aspects of the lathe and others is specification – they must look good in that respect which says little about their real capabilities. Spec changes are sometimes a missleading too but not on this one so far.

Brian if I remember correctly was warned that he might have some problems turning steel. Above certain sizes some people do. Hopper didn't have much of a problem at an inch but he does know what he is doing. Brian's tried cast iron and didn't like it at all but I suspect Brian is likely to want to machine it again.

To be honest as the designs of well made precision lathes in all sizes was thought out long ago I can't understand why the Chinese don't get on and do some in smaller sizes Even Brian's. There are problems though, leaving castings lying around for a very long time to allow them to stress relieve. The alternative is a tunnel that they take a good while to go though and get very hot and cool down very very slowly – days, lost and lots of them.That as far as I am aware has never caught on anywhere as it costs too much and also doesn't always work out well. It's cheaper to just store them in the open. A couple of years as far as I am aware. Maybe that can be reduced by different casting techniques.

John

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[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 26/03/2016 14:42:31:

Ketan, surprised to see you beating L out of the Aussies. (This is supposed to be a joke!)

Howard

Just felt in an L taking mood . Like you, I was enjoying reading about Brians journey. This thread was starting to become tense, so I was trying to get people to look at the situation from a different perspective, and move forward with a little less anger. Life is too short.

Ketan at ARC

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

For light relief I just had a look at Oz consumer rights. They are maybe a bit laxer than EU on mail order but are pretty clear about returns for faults etc – if difficult they have to organise and pay for it. If easy they have to refund reasonable costs. Compensation is even mentioned but I didn't look to closely. It also mentions miss description.

Pretty good really as would be expected from colonials we didn't go to war with. Not sure about those.

John

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[Roger HeadParticipant @rogerhead16992]

Ketan, Howard, don't feel bad about taking the mickey. Every time I hear one of those kids (under 40's ** ) on TV telling the world what a great place Austraya is, I grind my teeth a little further. But what else can you expect from an education system that has been dumbed down so far that they can't even pronounce their country's name, let alone spell it.

** Not all, just too damn many!

Roger

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Ketan Swali on 26/03/2016 12:18:42:…

Edited: Corrected Austrains (sorry you guys) to Australians.

 

LOL, Ketan you had the pronunciation right the first time, if not the spelling.

John, I think we went over the return situation, with the 2,000-mile round trip to send it back to the supplier in the capital city and then get the repaired or new lathe and the six to eight week time delay, and the unknown quality of a possible replacement lathe, it really is not as easy as it would be in other places to send it back.

And with regard to quality vs price, this was not a particularly cheap lathe to buy. Brian paid about $800 for it, the equivalent of 400 UK pounds. That is 120 quid more than a higher-specced C0 Sieg sells for in the UK at ARC and about the same price as a Sieg C3 sells for in Australia, the latter being a much more substantial machine than Brian's tiddler, I believe.

So one would expect when paying C3 price for a C0-sized machine "Made in Germany" that is should be better quality but smaller than a C3 Sieg. Seems a reasonable expectation to me.

I suppose the debate could go on forever but Brian is back production and looking at making the next larger Beng Stirling engine with stainless displacer cylinder etc, for which the little lathe should be just fine.

 

 

Edited By Hopper on 28/03/2016 03:23:34

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by JasonB on 26/03/2016 08:01:48:

Funny enough I just looked at my Unimat 3 parts drawings and that uses exactly the same construction. Mine and many many more have given years of trouble free service so that can rule out feeble design.

I havent looked at a Unimat in over 20 years, but a quick net search shows me only a much more substantial bushing than the Optimum. The Unimat bushing, show below, appears about three times longer than the Optimum, and has a positive locating hole drilled in it for the grubscrew to poke into. A much better set up than the Optimum's radial groove which I think was done that way because it is easier to make quickly. Simply turn the groove and part off. The Unimat style would need putting in a drill press to drill the hole, a second machining operation that would cost more money.

The cheaper to make Optimum bushing has the nasty drawback of allowing the bushing to rotate in the housing and in the process get burred up by the pointed end of the grubscrew.

The very nice looking Unimat tailstock bushing:

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I was going by my parts diagram as I've never had it apart to see whats inside, looks very similar to Brians and done far more work than his.

Same with the leadscrew bush, I have had that out a I seem to remember that needs to be done when fitting the power feed.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by JasonB on 28/03/2016 07:44:04:

I was going by my parts diagram as I've never had it apart to see whats inside, looks very similar to Brians …

.

Jason,

I don't want to labour this, but:

You stated, previously, that your Unimat "uses exactly the same construction" [your emphasis].

I'm sure that most of us have seen things that are a "little bit worse and a little bit cheaper" than the original … It seems to me that a direct comparison between Optimum and Unimat might be revealing.

The Devil is in the detail.

MichaelG.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

One interesting detail I found on mine was the headstock bearing fit. The one against the thrust spring washers will move. The front one needed the headstock dipping in hot water to get it out easily. I'd say about 60C or so. I used an oven to put the new one in.There was an amazing amount of wear in the bearings that hadn't really caused any problems at all as they were running in angular contact mode.

Pointless comparison with Brian's lathe anyway. Most of us might have adjusted the saddle and realised that something was wrong and looked further. Brian used it with sufficient force to cause the parts to pop out. Other than the lead screw should have been mounted correctly there is no point in criticising the lathe. Or Brian really as he didn't know what to expect and our comments being unaware of the problem wouldn't have helped at all.

I suspect the tailstock is similar really and lathes that use the lock nut method do loosen off at times who ever makes them. There needs to be an adjustment because the parts would have to be made to silly precisions to avoid it and there is also the problem with needing adjustment for wear.

John

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[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Michael maybe I should have said the U3 was the same basic design as it was the design that was being critisised, yes the fine details may be different and may have lost something when copied. That is not a design problem that is making to a budget.

A U3 would probably cost about £1000 today in the UK so again it comes down to you get what you pay for

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by JasonB on 28/03/2016 07:44:04:

I was going by my parts diagram as I've never had it apart to see whats inside, looks very similar to Brians and done far more work than his.

Same with the leadscrew bush, I have had that out a I seem to remember that needs to be done when fitting the power feed.

Judging/guessing from your parts diagram, I would say the Unimat bushing is three times the length of the Optimum's, making it sit squarely in the bore with out canting over and jamming. And the Unimat's grub screws for both the bushing and the quill anti-rotation guide are at least double the diameter and length of the Optimum. The Optimum has tiny little 3mm grub screws there (or maybe even 2mm?), whereas the Unimat appears to have grub screws the same size as the quill clamping bolt, ie 6mm.

Likewise, the plate that goes under the bed to clamp the tailstock appears in the Unimat drawing to be three times thicker than the one on the Optimum, which was roughly press-cut from a piece of maybe 2mm flat steel, almost sheet steel but not quite, ie manages to fall just short of being totally useless.

So same but different. Smaller size fittings all round. Thinner metal. Poorly finished. Cheap and nasty.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by JasonB on 28/03/2016 13:28:49:

… yes the fine details may be different and may have lost something when copied. That is not a design problem that is making to a budget.

.

I am still struggling to get my head around that distinction, Jason

Are you saying that the Optimum was not "designed" …

or that the factory did not make it to the specified design ?

MichaelG.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Michael I though it was well known that many of the far eastern designs are copied from based on other lathes.

But as you say it may well have been designed to a specification and if that specification had cost factors in it then again it comes back to you get what you pay for.

If you had to design a tailstock that could be made for a fiver or one for five hundred quid I'm sure you would would come up with two different products.

This is my last comment on the subject.

J

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Jason means struggling to meet a cost Michael. It's very much a look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves.

One catch that is very popular now is change one word to profit. Then look at market penetration against price and profit. Things aren't sold at minimum cost to increase numbers. They are sold at a price that minimises the work needed and maximises the profits. Do otherwise and you become a busy fool.

John

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[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

John,

It's O.K. … I understand Jason's point.

We've all been saying much the same thing in [politically] different ways.

It's what one might call 'violent agreement'

MichaelG.

.

Edit:

Now let's return to the repair/re-engineering of Brian's particular example of the breed.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 30/03/2016 10:25:59

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Off topic but relevant my feeling is that this guy got it right especially on point 2 of his listed contributions that are more far reaching than the words suggest

**LINK**

They can increase design costs though. The general idea behind the first one can used in a manner that he didn't intend

John

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