New lathe arrived today : The ongoing saga

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by John Stevenson on 24/03/2016 00:01:03:

Sorry, wasn't keeping tally of post counts, only works out to 1.5 posts per day though.

You will soon have caught up though at 5 post per day.

Yeh I know it's too many. Caught in the tidy up problem for months and months. Still no builder so I have emptied a cupboard that I now need to use. Only problem is it's had acids in it. Washed out now and the smell has just about gone after a month. Playing with a lathe hasn't helped the tidy up either.

Brian now sees the grass as being greener on the other side of the hill. Trouble is it very probably wont be certainly not on motor power. He's been sucked in by the German involvement and may be by the USA one next.

A better heading for this thread might be take up watch / clock making or expect problems with a number of other hobbies where the parts are bigger and use different materials. Brian was warned about that aspect when he bought it. He does seem to have done better than a work acquaintance I pointed well away from a baby lathe though. I would have pointed him away from Shereline too.

John

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[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

It looks like it is possible to by an interesting chinese lathe in Oz

**LINK**

Probably noisy though. There are also some used Hercus about. One has most of what people would want with it.

I'd guess there may be some Myford ML10 or Speed 10's about as well. Not perfect but the weight is manageable especially with the head and tail stock off. Just what Brian needs really. Then there is the mini lathe.Going on the one I currently have ok once it's set up but some things irritate me and it's bigger than I really need for a 2nd lathe. I'd say it suffers to some extent by using too tensile a grade of cast iron for it's bits and pieces which will tend to keep the weight down though.

John

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[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Brian, I am home over Easter so you are welcome to give me a call and bring your tailstock and all its parts around and I am sure we can sort it out with the gear in my workshop. Bring the manual with the exploded drawings too.

You should have no problem turning steel on your lathe. When I had it in the workshop it was taking 1.0 to 1.5mm deep cuts on 1" steel bar without any dramas. Using the tailstock centre makes it pretty easy.

And BTW, mods, ongoing is one word.

[Brian JohnParticipant @brianjohn93961]

Thanks Hopper. I am working the next three nights but I will give you a call soon.

Is there some reason that they put a small hand wheel on the tailstock assembly ? I would have thought a larger hand wheel as fitted to the cross slide or lead screw would have been more useful.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

 New thread name: Perhaps it could be changed to that Charlie Drake song from the 1960s "My Boomerang Won't Come Back", maybe not, the ABC have banned it as racial.

There is only one outfit to blame for the troubles with the lathe, the Australian suppliers for selling a lathe that is not fit for sale. On this side of the Tasman we have a TV program called "Fair Go", and a threat to take a firm to the program is usually enough to get things sorted, they also work in with the Commerce Commission.

There was/is one chap on MEM from Hawks Bay (NZ) who did have big problems with a Sieg mill, I think the problem is now solved.

Ian S C

Edited By Ian S C on 24/03/2016 11:24:42

[Brian JohnParticipant @brianjohn93961]

Ian : I blame the main company in Germany for their lack of quality control in their Chinese factory. This was a new model so they should have been watching closely to see that the lathes were being produced in accordance with instructions.

I know from being involved with model trains that whenever you have something new being produced in China that you have to watch the initial output VERY closely or else you will not get what you asked for. It is a common problem I have heard time and time again.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Brian John on 24/03/2016 11:21:11:

Thanks Hopper. I am working the next three nights but I will give you a call soon.

Is there some reason that they put a small hand wheel on the tailstock assembly ? I would have thought a larger hand wheel as fitted to the cross slide or lead screw would have been more useful.

Yes, it is made small so you can't exert 150 foot pounds of torque on the poor little quill and associated threads etc and overstress the poor little tailstock.

Another thing I am not sure you have looked at is the grub screw that locates the quill, near the front of the tailstock (left hand end when standing at the lathe). It should have a small step turned down on the end that engages in the slot in the quill and stops it from turning. It's possible this has broken off under heavy drilling loads so the screw is bearing on the quill instead of just locating it via the small spigot riding in the slot in the quill. Doesn't help with the handle but may explain the jamming up etc.

Did you ever measure the outer diameter of the quill to see if it has expanded significantly at the end where the tapered centre fits in?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Hopper on 24/03/2016 11:38:15:

Posted by Brian John on 24/03/2016 11:21:11:

Is there some reason that they put a small hand wheel on the tailstock assembly ? I would have thought a larger hand wheel as fitted to the cross slide or lead screw would have been more useful.

Yes, it is made small so you can't exert 150 foot pounds of torque on the poor little quill and associated threads etc and overstress the poor little tailstock.

In much the same way that adding those larger handles to the handwheels have allowed more force to be used than intended which may just be why the handwheel is now stuck

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by Ian S C on 24/03/2016 11:23:04:

New thread name: Perhaps it could be changed to that Charlie Drake song from the 1960s "My Boomerang Won't Come Back", maybe not, the ABC have banned it as racial.

There is only one outfit to blame for the troubles with the lathe, the Australian suppliers for selling a lathe that is not fit for sale. On this side of the Tasman we have a TV program called "Fair Go", and a threat to take a firm to the program is usually enough to get things sorted, they also work in with the Commerce Commission.

There was/is one chap on MEM from Hawks Bay (NZ) who did have big problems with a Sieg mill, I think the problem is now solved.

Ian S C

Edited By Ian S C on 24/03/2016 11:24:42

I'm inclined to agree with that Ian. Suppliers should check them over and set them up. It's a bit much to expect a complete novice to do and can lead to problems as it has on this thread. It sounded like the slides needed adjusting. Eventually it sounds like they were – then the bits popped out due to the loads. A lot of us would notice that something was amiss with the saddle feed rather quickly.

On the latest "problem" I wonder what the max drill size is for truncated 1 morse. I'd guess the one they might supply would be 6mm. Maybe 8 if they wanted to exaggerate it a bit. Again experience comes into this area. I know that when I am using a 25mm dia drill in a 2 morse drill chuck that I am pushing things a bit and proceed accordingly. 2 morse fits wonderfully in my aftermarket quill, made in the uk as it has expanded the end of it.

From what I have heard from various sources is that often initial batches of things from china are wonderful. The next lot may not be, or the one after that and etc but that probably depends on who they are dealing with and also probably how much they are prepared  to pay.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 24/03/2016 13:45:12

[BOB BLACKSHAW 1Participant @bobblackshaw1]

Why did you not send the machine back to the supplier when the fault was noticed, sale of goods act, I have not read every thread here was this not thought off. When I had problems with my lathe, parts missing in the carriage, etc, it really was not fit for purpose. The machine was not checked as stated on the advertisement, but I was offered a refund or exchange, I did not take this up because of the problems I had installing it in the first place, weight etc. I fixed it myself with the parts sent out which was not difficult and now its very accurate generally, I also received a refund for my trouble. If Brian John is taking up model engineering I think he will break the record of forum posts in the near future. I suggest he takes up mixing water as a hobby, cant go wrong with that.

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

Bob Blackshaw – your comments are just plain nasty and obviously meant to hurt. I'm offended by your post and also at the John S knitting comment. Doesn't help the hobby in any way to snipe like that. JD

Edited By Jeff Dayman on 24/03/2016 16:23:27

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Jeff,

How does Brians post help the hobby then ?

Would the majority of readers on here have the same problems or just work round them ?

He did say you wouldn't expect the same problems on a new car but yes you would if you paid 15/6 for a new car.

There are probably far more people on this forum who have Chinese machinery in their workshops, lets face it without this machinery there would be virtually no new people coming into the hobby, it's probably as high as 5:1 or 6:1 over old western iron but are there 5:1 or 6:1 bitching posts over quality ?

 

Jason for one has all Chinese gear and look at what he produces.

No TBH all Brians inept bungling and jumping in is doing is putting people off buying a machine, chances are they will have little or no problems with but we are now into 46 pages and this isn't the first machine he's had a go at.

 

I do so wish he had bought a Sherline and then we could have compare his results to the ones featured on Joe Martins excellent website of excellence

Edited By John Stevenson on 24/03/2016 17:27:34

[Brian JohnParticipant @brianjohn93961]

Quite so.

<close>

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Brian is learning. Many of us are. We try to sort our own problems and often make them worse because we don't have the background or experience. It's all part of the learning curve and it's due to the patience of the majority here that we 'lower orders' hopefully improve and end up joining the ranks that enjoy the hobby.

Brian's experiences and posts are less likely to put folk off as much as unkind replies to his posts will. it'll make many people wary of asking a question and being shot down with criticism.

I'm grateful to the folk that have helped me on here as I'm sure Brian is – long may such help continue. And whatever Brian may have done at times there is no doubt that there were some fundamental issues with his lathe that Hopper improved. is it surprising the lad gets frustrated at times? No.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

So he should have done what every one told him and send it back.

 

Why ask for advise if you choose to ignore it. I'll grant you he got a real lemon with this one and all the more reason to ditch it ASAP whilst he still had a chance.

Problem is now he's stuck with it for good.

 

First post was exactly 7 months ago to the day. He could have been well up and running with something else, still asking for advise as a beginner and getting it like all on here.

Collectively we have wasted 7 months.

Edited By John Stevenson on 24/03/2016 22:36:43

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

Hi John,

7 months have not been wasted.

I do not dispute this lathe was a 'bad un', and Brian could have rejected it and got his money back.

However, the whole thread has been of great interest to many of us, not least Hopper's extremely generous help.

Brian's thread shows where the pitfalls are and how to resolve many of them with this type of lathe.

A better bigger machine might have been a better buy, but we are also aware Brian doesnt have a dedicated workshop.

Please keep up the posts Brian, and look forward to reports of further generous help by Hopper after Easter!

Cheers,

Julian

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Take no notice Brian and if there are more problems from any cause keep 'em coming because many beginners main problem is understanding the limitations of what they are using, how it works and what can go wrong and why.

I do feel however that some of the problems are in part down to the user and or lack of experience. I can understand why you get annoyed but you should bear this in mind. The truly bad aspect of this lathe was the lead screw support. This forum was of no help what so ever as we couldn't see it and suggested all sorts of things as a result. So really mentioning that people told you to send it back is pointless. Hopper fixed it anyway. It was a fault that would justify sending it back.

You will get more problems eventually – at some point you will wear some of it out. Plus as I mentioned a work colleague of more than average intelligence didn't get as far as you have with this particular size of lathe so good for you on that aspect.

Just add one other thing. If some one asked me if they should buy a baby lathe for what you want to make I would still say most emphatically no. You have done pretty well in that respect really but are probably more aware of the limitations now. Shereline better in that respect – I very much doubt it.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 25/03/2016 00:13:22

[Danny M2ZParticipant @dannym2z]

Hi people.

The tyrrany of distance is always a problem here in Australia. Many people do not realise just how big this place is.

Brian lives north of me about 2,500km, that's about the same distance as London is to Moscow. He's actually much closer to Nui Guinea than to any of the major tooling suppliers.

I am comparatively lucky, only 3 hours from Melbourne and about 5 from Sydney. (That's where my suppliers are located).

Just to simply say 'send it back' is not always realistic and I do admire his perseverance – also lucky to have an experienced mate like Hopper around. Freight costs could equal the value of the lathe.

In the true Aussie tradition he's having a go at it and the final result will be fit for purpose.

OK, Brian was sold a bit of a Friday arvo job, not quite up to the tasks that he envisaged but he's learning heaps so maybe a few people here should back-off a bit and try to be more constructive.

* Danny M *

[BOB BLACKSHAW 1Participant @bobblackshaw1]

I am on night shift so on the same time scale in Australia. If I had a experienced mate like Hopper and was having problems like Brian is having why involve the forum, surly contact your mate via the phone or e-mail for some help they have arranged a meeting over Easter, why do the forum need to know this. I have limited knowledge with mills and lathe work but read books and use You Tube and this forum has so far been helpful to me. I read Brians first thread and was rather shocked at the questions asked, is their a need for the lathe to be bolted down, and what is the plastic shield covering the chuck used for, and other so basic that common sense is needed.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Bob maybe you should read the whoel thread. For a start Brian came across Hopper via this forum and this thread in particular. You come from an engineering background, Brian had never touched a lathe before this arrived and does not come from a practical background. Reasons for not returning teh lateh have also been covered as well as the supplier sending out an engineer to do repairs.

Although I do get frustrated at times with Brian and some of his comments the last 7 months have not been wasted. Take a look at his other threads – His silver soldering on the small boilers and burners is very good, far better than I have seen shown by many on here. Also the bits he has made for his couple of engines have a good finish and look tidy, again nicer than some I have seen and his engine Run (eventually).

J

[John FieldingParticipant @johnfielding34086]

I think one thing we can all learn from this saga is that although one purchases a reputable brand name in good faith, there will always be Monday Morning cars leaving the factory. Agreed it should have been picked up before it left the factory and the selling agent also should have done a full Pre Delivery Inspection, but sometimes things slip through the cracks.

One of the problems is the use of rust preservative gels and waxes the manufacturers use to coat the machines to prevent corrosion during shipping. This needs to be carefully removed before a slide can be assessed for correct adjustment. Hell, on my Taiwanese mill/drill I bought over 25 years ago I am still finding the odd bit here and there when I take a part off the machine. How one is supposed to check slide adjustment when it is gummed up with wax eludes me! So the selling agent probably is limited in what they can and cannot do to check a machine is fit for use. And again a raw beginner isn't expected to know all the tricks someone with years of experience would have, so things do sometimes go pear shaped.

Many years ago I had a friend with a well known 4×4 vehicle which developed an intermittent clanking noise in the rear diff. Despite all attempts to find the cause it came and went erratically. Finally decided to pull the diff out of the housing and inspect. Problem solved, in the bottom of the diff casing was the remains of a 1/4-inch drill spiral bit. It had apparently broken off when the diff casing was drilled in the factory and occasionally would be thrown up from the bottom into the gears. Three chipped teeth on the diff meant an expensive repair job.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

What I don't like about this thread is certain critical comments about it from a few people when it has had 80506 views.

The other unfortunate aspect is that it has given rise to comments about Optimum in other threads when in real terms 1 lathe doesn't really say anything at all about the general quality of the brand. The same sort of thing might happen on any brand at any price level. Fact, the initial fault on this lathe was pretty simple and caused others. I suspect that the current one is down to Brian – not noticing that something had changed and then leaping in. There was another similar case on another brand where it sounds like some one leapt in and tried to cure a warped bed by modifying the tail stock. That one wasn't helped by some crackpot tests and fixes that seem to be about on the web. I've no idea where he got them from but it's pretty clear what he should have done before doing anything.

In the UK and the rest of Europe if some one sells something with faults like these they have no option other than to take them back and pay the carriage costs. It's the same on Ebay except on auctions where the buyer has to pay the return costs. If it's the same in Oz chances are in Brian's case they might just send a new lathe – always difficult 'cause some people tell lies. People also return things because they have changed their mind. This makes retailers sob. Sensible ones account for it in what they charge for the items they have a rough idea how often it will happen and will also probably recoup their costs by selling it at a reduced price or throw it away if it's duff.

The relative cost of items comes into it as well. I know of a case of half a dozen chucks going back to a retailer with stripped scrolls. Who ever bought them expected the very best at a fraction of the cost. Maybe they were replaced and some manager somewhere had rather a lot of strong words to say to his workforce. Maybe the retailer refunded and refused to supply replacements. I wouldn't blame him.

John F. If I remember correctly Arc used to charge for cleaning the preservatives off. I don't think they do any more so I assume they come in relatively clean.

John

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[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I really do hope Hopper comes back and tells us all what the problem is. I'm truly curious.

However I have a feeling that we wont hear from Brian again. Sad so really well done to the people who may have done that.

John

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[HopperParticipant @hopper]

All fixed.

It looks like the problem was a combination of factors.

The handle and bushing came off easily enough with the screw held in the 4" vice with soft jaws.

The tailstock feedscrew was a bit banana shaped so we straightened that out.

The tailstock quill measured up parallel and round and was free of burrs etc so no dramas there.

The "bushing" that locates the feedscrew in the body was burred up so we cleaned that up in the lathe. But it was not clear if the grub screw that locates in a groove around the periphery of the bushing was supposed to hold the bushing firm and let the feedscrew rotate in the hole in the middle of it, or if the grub screw was supposed to sit in the groove but let the bushing rotate in the housing on the OD.

So an executive decision was made and a small divot drilled in the groove in the bushing OD with a largish centre drill, and a longer grub screw with a lock nut screwed in hard so the bushing stays put. Where it had been rotating before had allowed the grub screw to chew up the groove.

So then we had to install the handwheel, screwing it on until firm then backing it of an eighth of a turn and holding everything in position while nipping up the locking acorn nut.

Reassembled everything with plenty of Never-Seez and all is good.

It looks like a pretty cheap and nasty design with the bushing grub screw that sort of locates the feedscrew bushing and sort of holds it firm but sort of lets it rotate too. When you crank the handwheel such as when drilling large holes etc, all the feeding force is taken by that grubscrew locating the bushing. It is only about a 3mm grub screw so will not take much to shear it off. At least now it is positively located so should endure a bit better.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Hopper on 26/03/2016 05:55:22:

… It looks like a pretty cheap and nasty design with the bushing grub screw that sort of locates the feedscrew bushing and sort of holds it firm but sort of lets it rotate too. When you crank the handwheel such as when drilling large holes etc, all the feeding force is taken by that grubscrew locating the bushing. It is only about a 3mm grub screw so will not take much to shear it off. At least now it is positively located so should endure a bit better.

.

Feeble design and ambitious usage

together = recipe for disaster

Well done for fixing it, Hopper

and, Brian: Treat the poor little thing gently.

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 26/03/2016 07:47:07

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