New lathe arrived today : The ongoing saga

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by John W1 on 04/11/2015 12:29:37:

It would be interesting to see how you get on turning steel on it Hopper. It should be capable of taking some sort of cut.

Saddle lifting as it's moved along the bed by the lead screw is a new one for me. One to tuck away and remember.

John

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It's something you have to watch when scraping or grinding a lot of metal off old worn-out larger lathes' beds. If you take ten thou off the bedways, the half nuts are now ten thou too low to line up with the lead screw properly and have to be raised that bit.

I'm sure it will turn steel just fine. I can't see any reason why not. Wasn't planning on testing it on anything else. Nicely honed HSS knife tool with an acute "angle of keen-ness" of about 60 degrees should do the trick.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

A few pics of this morning's findings:

The original bushing showing the misalignment where it sits on the leadscrew but missed the hole by about .025".

Turning an offset bushing the quick and dirty way in the three jaw chuck with a shim between one jaw and the bushing which has already had the OD and length turned to size. With it running off centre by the correct amount, bush was centre drilled and drilled 6mm in the normal way.

The finished bushing. You may be able to see the offset of the hole in the middle. Not sure about my close up photo skills though. The bush slid right on that lead screw and into the hole in the bed shown in pic one. Then I marked the grubscrew dimple position and drilled it in the drill press to locate the offset in the exact right position.

Hey look, the leadscrew is in line with the bed ways!!

Spindle runout all well within spec: Here I am checking bearing play by pulling upwards on the MT1 drill bit inserted in the spindle. No perceptible shake but .02mm of movement if I push downwards as hard as I can. On a tiddler like this, probably spindle flex etc.

Spindle runout radial and axial all very good. Just perceptible needle movement.

Tightening the chuck mounting nuts in the traditional manner with piece of wood through the jaws to stop rotation.

And carriage movement vs test bar set in the neutral position (halfway between max and min runout) is within about one thou (.02mm on this DTI) over the six inch length. Not too bad.

So tomorrow it's fit the topslide, set up the tail stock and make some swarf.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

People might be interested in any taper when it turns over say 3" Hopper. maybe a ring at each end. Me – more curiosity than anything else. It's a figure seldom mentioned.

John

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[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Yes I have some nice bits of 1" cold rolled bar so will be doing some test bars. If Brian is going to be making Stirling engines we can't have him boring tapered cylinders.

If push comes to shove, I found a piece of scrap 40mm MDF kitchen counter top that we can cut a piece from and bolt the bed to that, using shims to twist the bed if we need to get that last taper adjustment just so, a la Myford practice. I see that as last resort though.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by julian atkins on 03/11/2015 23:44:19:

i agree with Hopper, who i still think deserves a Model Engineering 'Oscar' for his efforts with Brian's machine.

i must say that in many years this has been the most interesting thread.

i dont know what ME pay per page these days (£45 per page?) but a write up of Hopper's work on this lathe if spread out ad nauseam such as the 'Emma Victoria' build would earn him a tidy sum!

Hopper, you are a Star and a real Gent and a credit to this hobby for helping out Brian!

cheers,

julian

Thanks Julian.

I took plenty of photos so maybe will have to ask Neil if he would be interested. I wouldn't want to put anyone off buying a small Chinese lathe but it seems quite a few people have had to do this kind of fettling to their new machines. It also all applies to rejuvenating older lathes too, so may be of some wider interest.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Having followed this thread for a long time:

The lathe is wrongly named. It should be SUB OPTIMUM.

In U K, the seller could be done under the Trades Description Act, or sale of Goods Act.

For a long time, I despaired of it EVER functioning properly.

If anyone deserves a place in Heaven; (may it be a LONG time before he occupies it), it's Hopper. His work looks to have transformed the machine.

Brian, you cannot believe just how fortunate you are to have found a mate like Hopper.

But, he typifies the way that Model Engineers help each other.

A sad tale, but with a happy ending in sight.

Howard

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I sounds to me like the most serious and troublesome feature was the lead screw location. The rest in terms of finish on hidden surfaces is a pretty standard feature from comments I have seen possibly on all of them but most definitely on the smaller ones. Grinding costs money.

Finding scribed lines marking hole positions is really fascinating. A problem when labour is cheap but then machines to do that automatically cost and that cost would have to be included in the final product cost. The machines don't last for ever and can be very expensive to buy and run. People funnily enough are cheap and above all else are flexible but also more inclined to make mistakes. I'd guess from what I have seen that marginal changes in the position of these holes don't really matter.

Hopper finding he could work induction hardened cast iron doesn't surprise me. It doesn't mean much unless there is a hardness number associated with it. I managed to work a Myford hardened bed but it was hard. Couldn't touch a Raglan one with anything I had at the time. I could probably mark the bed on my Boxford with a file without too much trouble. It's an ME10. If I tied it on a VSL I might well find it a lot harder.

The fact that the lathe has a single V and a flat for the saddle guide probably allows them to get away with just milling that part of the saddle. Top slides can always be milled simply as the gib strip takes out any angular error. The amount of dish the lathe faces is more important. I'd wonder if they can mill saddle guides for twin V beds but these cost more. 3 V's are better anyway, 2 for saddle and one for tailstock and head stock especially as that allows longer saddle guide as they can pass both the head stock and tailstock. None on the market as far as I know these days not even going up to £14k plus "UK" lathes. This might be why most beds are hardened now as cutting loads are lop sided as far as the bed and saddle are concerned and wear would be rapid.

Take away the lead screw and what Hopper seems to be finding is that the milling under the saddle could be better and if I remember correctly bed edge thickness could be more consistent but other factors don't seem to be too bad. The spindle axis is more or less parallel to the bed but any taper will only be seen when he turns something. So looks like the bed is fairly flat too, People should note how he tested that – I'd suggest making a between centre test bar. Nice exercise and useful for checking tail stock alignment later. For some reason we can't buy them. Only the ones with a morse taper on the end which in some ways are less useful.

From what I have seen if some one want well finished ground accurate hidden surfaces it can be bought – try wabeco. Circa £3000 with no extras for what is essentially a mini lathe with some bad design features. Do people really think that China could get that down to circa £500 by the time it was actually at the point where it was sold? Living on planet zod if they do. Sure it could be well under £3000 especially if they sold lots but it would still be at a price where they probably wouldn't so who knows what price it would finish up at.

People should be glad about cheap smaller chinese lathes in some respects because they can afford them and how often has the term casting kits and sorting out been mentioned. What people should demand is a flat bed and decent spindle alignment and no stupid things like a lead screw being madly out. Some better instructions on setting bearings would be a good idea as well because over tighten and they wont last very long at all.

John

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[HopperParticipant @hopper]

John I think you are pretty well right there. The leadscrew probably was the major problem, with the back lower way necessitating a loose fitting of that bottom gib plate and compounding the problem. But the poor fit of the carriage on particularly on the rear way certainly didn't help.

But yes, overall spindle alignment is good.

Tests today have shown about .0005" taper (0.01mm) over a three inch (75mm) length of aluminum 5/8" diam bar. Not Schlesinger limits but better than before and easily adjusted by bed "levelling" ie putting just the right twist in it.

My test bar between centres showed about .002" high and .002" toward the operator at the tailstock end. I say about because the tailstock varies a bit depending on how hard you clamp it down. There is no adjustment on the tailstock in any direction other than laborious scraping.

Fortunately when I turned a piece of steel between centres, it was only about .001" smaller at the tailstock end over a five inch distance. It goes to show, you can't beat an actual turning test. Or maybe it was just the tailstock moving about a bit.

Finish on the ally was top notch. On the steel, not quite so much. As there was quite a backcut on the return of the carriage, and as using a tailstock centre makes a huge difference, even close to the chuck, I put it down to headstock bearing play, which was more than I expected when measured with a long bar held in the chuck and pushing up and down. So we'll see about sourcing some angular contact bearings on the morrow as per Ketan's suggestion about 30 pages ago!

The little baby lathe really struggled to deal with a piece of one-inch diameter cold rolled steel bar about four inches long. With no tailstock centre in place if had to call the lathe a name it would be Chatterbox. Light cuts just as bad as slightly deeper ones.

Then with tailstock centre in place, chatter stopped, finish improved but still not sparkling, and I could take a 20 thou/half millimetre deep cut – but it kept stalling the motor or slipping the belt. At 400rpm as required for HSS tooling on one inch diameter steel, the motor simply has not enough torque. Gentle hand feeding at about half the auto feed rate with great care allowed the cut to proceed. But blimey it would be slow going to make anything at that rate. I have suggested to Brian that he eventually turn up a half-diameter pulley to put on the motor to double its RPM vis-a-vis the headstock spindle RPM and thus give more torque at 400rpm.

Half-inch (13mm) diameter cold rolled steel fared much better. Nicer finish without the tailstock centre, although not brilliant. Quite passable finish with a centre. Running at 800rpm with out drama. Took a 1mm (.040"   ) deep cut under fine hand feed OK. Not too bad at all.

So i reckon we have gone this far with the little baby that we might as well go ahead and fit $20 worth of angular contact bearings just to make the little machine the best that it can be. My repeated experience with Chinese machine bearings has been that they can be of widely varying quality. So some good name brand bearings certainly won't hurt in the long term.

I think for Brian's purposes, the making of small models such as the Beng Laura Stirling etc where most of the material is brass or ally, or smaller diameter steel, the lathe would be OK as it is now, but we might as well take that last step and upgrade it for the inevitable bigger jobs that always pop up.

Will post a few pics later.

Edited By Hopper on 05/11/2015 11:56:24 (Doh missed a zero on the taper!!)

Edited By Hopper on 05/11/2015 11:57:51

Edited By Hopper on 05/11/2015 12:04:26

Edited By Hopper on 05/11/2015 12:08:30

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

It's possible to clean up tailstock morse socket alignment with a morse reamer providing it's not much but if there is some variation according to how it's clamped that might not be a good idea and it's barrel alignment needs checking too really – usual answer is to do it half way extended. There also needs to be some spare morse taper sticking out when one is fitted in the socket. The technique is only intended to correct a few thou alignment error.

The usual technique is to hold the morse reamer in the 3 jaw. Half extend the tail stock and then push the whole thing onto the reamer. Relies on heavy tailstocks. I didn't like the sound of this but having done it all I can say is that it does work. I was told specifically not to clamp the tailstock down. That does make a certain amount of sense with some ifs and buts.

The saddle fit problems could be just casting distortion. That will relate to how long they were allowed to cool in the mould. Machining 2 side releasing stress etc. I understand real lathe manufactures leave them lying around outside for a very long time to destress them. Rust softens the skin reducing machining cost and what stress comes out after machining is finally removed by grinding. Opti do offer one small lathe where they say castings are at least 6 months old. As rolls royce used several years on engine blocks I'd suspect that ain't long enough. A unique comment though.

That hole for the leadscrew ????????? Maybe they changed one end and didn't bother with the other or got it wrong on the basic casting and couldn't be bothered to sort it out.

Just add I am not defending them by the way – just pointing out the complications with expecting better = cost in more ways than many would appreciate.

John

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Edited By John W1 on 05/11/2015 12:49:40

Edited By John W1 on 05/11/2015 12:55:51

[Brian JohnParticipant @brianjohn93961]

But as I have said before, to sort these problems out at the factory in China would not cost much as their wages are so low. The problem is that they do not have enough skilled people to go around. The guy from Coles Air Tools in Cairns has a lathe and they also sell lathes so he seems to be in the know about this. He said all the best machines are made in Taiwan ; the Chinese cannot get enough properly skilled people so the quality of the machines from China can be quite variable. Just something to think about if you are considering buying a machine from Asia.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Well the bearing situation is a bit of a quandary. Original spindle bearings are 6003 ZZ, deep groove ball bearings with double steel shields.

The equivalent angular contact bearings are number 7003. But they are available in Australia, and most of the net, only as open bearings with no seals or shields. Some sealed ones being sold out of China, and therefore of unknown quality, and I would be hesitant to fit rubber sealed bearings because it increases the torque loading on the little motor at start up. It already struggles to start at the 400rpm setting.

There are some "super precision" grade 7003 bearings available too, at about $200 a pop. That is what makes the upmarket machine tools more expensive right there!

And the open bearing will not do because there is no other seal or even shield on the spindle at the chuck end so swarf will end up getting in there and ruining the bearing in pretty quick order.

So I think we will be sticking with the existing bearings, unless anyone here knows a good source of 7003 ZZ bearings?

The bloke at the bearing shop suggested using a good quality Japanese bearing 6003 with the increased C3 clearance because "the balls run higher up on the races and can take more axial preloading". Bit it seems to me the only difference between a normal clearance 6003 bearing and a 6003 C3 is the extra thou or so of clearance between balls and races and I just can't see that making a big difference in this application. Or am I missing something?

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Finally got the wee beastie performing at a suitable standard. As we could not source the angular contact bearings with shields, I nipped up the pre-load on the existing headstock bearings. This improved the finish on steel. Not mirror shiny but quite good. The lathe will now take a 1mm deep cut (2mm off the diameter) on 25mm diameter steel on auto feed without drama, as long as tailstock centre is used. Without the tailstock centre it gets a bit chattery on heavy cuts but is ok on light cuts.

I'm sure the remaining shortcomings are those little headstock bearings. With the tailstock centre in place, taking a heavy cut on steel is ok at the tailstock end, but chatter increases as the tool moves closer to the chuck.

But the machine is now at least capable of doing the small model engine work Brian is doing on is Beng Laura Stirling engine. Brian is going to come and pick it up tomorrow, and we will machine his new faceplate to fit as well. He can have a scope around the net and if he can find some 7003 ZZ bearings at a suitable price (not the $200 each super precision jobs!) we will fit them at some point down the road.

All's well that ends well!

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Hopper on 07/11/2015 10:38:35:

Finally got the wee beastie performing at a suitable standard.

…

All's well that ends well!

.

Hopper,

Congratulations on a job well done.

MichaelG.

[David ColwillParticipant @davidcolwill19261]

Great work.

Having sorted out the various issues with fit and alignment, now would be a good time to think of raising the headstock by 4 inches and fitting a 3hp motor

David

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Hopper,

Regarding introducing a twist in the bed, I would suggest that it is better to leave it alone. Let the machine settle in Brians home for a while before considering anything else. You might find over time that it may cure itself. Not a good idea to introduce twist to small machines at an early stage of their birth.

Regarding the bearing change, as you have suggested, leave it alone for the time being. If it is good enough, then it is better that Brian uses it for a while before making any changes.

With reference to some points raised for the bearings in the headstock:

– 2RS or ZZ will not make much or any marked difference to torque in Brians machine. If anything, I would put 2RS rubber sealed bearing, at least at the front working end which is just behind the chuck, to more or less stop or reduce any ingress of swarf. If necessary, I would remove the back seal on the same bearing. The back bearing can be open or sealed or shielded or the outside seal/shield left in place and inside seal or shield removed.

– The original ball bearings fitted to this machine should always be C0 clearance. Never C3 clearance. C3 = looser fit = a more run-in feal. So, in some respect, the result on finish on Brians machine will be worse than it is now, until and unless the machine is running very fast and very hot. The key reason for C3 is to allow for bearing expansion when things are running hot, to reduce the possibility of the bearings seizing up. Not that useful on Brians lathe because it is unlikely to get so hot as to get the possible benefit.

The reason why your bearing stockist was suggesting C3 is because C3 is more suitable for replacement market where the product into which the bearing is to be installed is worn/run-in. To put C0 clearance bearings in such a product could mean that the chances of a new C0 clearance bearings seizing (based on application), also increase, and bearing dealers don’t want you to bring such bearings back , so C3 clearance bearings are kept more in stock to deal with certain after market applications.

– By introducing ‘some’ pre-load on the existing ball bearings, you will get some benefit as you have seen, and this is good. Do not introduce too much pre-load as not so good for ball bearings, especially slim ball bearings as in this case. However, in time, in effect this will result in the bearings becoming a kind of C3 clearance, due to the consistent force resulting from the pre-load. This in turn will be seen in the results of the finish on turned material getting poor over time. At that time, the bearing/s can be changed.

– You mentioned that you got a better result by supporting the material with a centre. Well, I am guessing that this may be due to the slim bearings supporting the spindle with a heavy chuck on the end. Un-supported, the bearings will wear a little faster, with the turning forces being introduced. Regardless of what bearings you replace the existing ones with, at the end of the day, the replacement bearings will be slim, and the load they will be driving along with the turning forces will mean that bearing wear will be faster, depending on the amount and type of use.

Continued…

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Emco have been using ordinary ball races in an angular contact fashion on unimats for donkeys years Hopper. They use disk springs to force the inners against the outers and if used for some time and the bearings are replaced the inners really are very loose in the outers. When I had one I replaced them. No need to really but the idea works well. The disk springs of course improve things further over a simple nut to set the preload. So the bearing man's idea does make sense – higher balls = bigger contact area. I was going to use the same idea on a toolpost grinder as it can work so well but for various reasons have decided plain bearings are a better option for what I want.

Seems it was pointless explaining why costs aren't so simple as people might think Brian but continue to believe what you believe if you want. Fact China has factories that can produce many things to what ever standard a customer wants – at a price just like any where else. Fact toolmaking a while ago now – China costs 7 1/2 % lower than the USA. To do that sort of thing they need the same level of equipment, skill etc as the west uses. I mean real toolmaking.

One of the what might seem odd aspects about manufacture is that profit margins are usually low so if the costs there go up by a few quid it will be a lot more by the time it gets to you. Actually I think you would be gob smacked by how much your lathe actually costed to make. A lot less than you might be inclined to think.

John

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[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

– Earlier, I mentioned that the ball bearings fitted to this machine should be C0 clearance. It is difficult for most factories in China to control this. They could be C0 or C3 or combination, and the machine making factory will not know for sure because they have to buy the bearings from a bearing wholesaler. Bearing wholesalers and certain bearing manufacturers do not necessarily declare what they have in stock, and it is not so easy to detect in large quantity purchase

– So, if you do decide to change the bearings, not now, but in the future, the process of extraction will probably damage the bearing/s, because they are slim section. So at that time, after extraction, one should not presume that they are of ’poor quality’, because the process of extraction combined with them being slim section ball bearings, can damage them.

– If you decide to replace them with known brand ball bearings, make sure they are still C0 clearance. Do not be too hung-up about Chinese origin, as long as you are buying from a long well-established source. In the U.K., some of the popular bearing on-line sites hide the fact that it is Chinese, by saying: BRAND: EU Neutral (which really means Chinese bearings which are in free circulation in the E.U.), or KG-Dubai (which really means Chinese or India most of the time, which may or may not be assembled in Dubai). Big brands are at it too. It is a total load of shizzle. For example Timken – Turkey.

– If you decide to put in Angular Contact ball bearing/s, again, please do not be hung-up on Chinese origin. With reference to Angular Contact ball bearings from China, these are generally from better makers than certain cottage industry makers of small/miniature ball bearings. Again, guidance would be for you to consider these from local well-established sources, unless you know the Chinese factory . Brians machine is not so special that it needs anything of super-precision capabilities, because even that would be useless, given the loads and forces the slim bearings are being subjected to.

– If you decide to fit an angular contact bearing, especially at the front end, behind the chuck: Is there enough room behind the chuck to make and fit a thin seal of some description to the headstock, to deal with and reduce the potential ingress of swarf?…regardless, given the points raised above, Brian is probably likely to open up the head stock to carry out maintenance, so if you decide to use ‘an open angular contact bearing’, with some kind of made up seal on the front if possible, it should hopefully not pose to be such a big problem to us open angular contact bearing/s.

Ketan at ARC.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by John W1 on 07/11/2015 13:32:45:

So the bearing man's idea does make sense – higher balls = bigger contact area.

John

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Sorry John, it doesn't, particularly not in this case or application. True bearing people as encountered by Hopper are always colourful. Unfortunately, very very few about nowadays. most of the old colourful mob from the U.K. left a while back and live in Spain.

Ketan at ARC.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Ketan thanks for your input. Yes, I would have expected C0 bearings to be used where you wanted to minimize runout, such as a machine tool spindle of any sort. The C3 suggestion left me a bit gobsmacked. Although, I found one bearing manufacturer's datasheets (NTN) that did mention a C3 bearing will take more axial loading than a standard (CN) bearing. No explanation of why.

There is no room to fit a seal in front of the front headstock bearing. The integral flange on the spindle is only a few thou away from the headstock casting and the bearing. I am not sure if this headstock is hollow inside or just a machined hole all the way through with circlip grooves to locate the bearings. If the latter, one might be able to machine circlip grooves further inboard and fit a seal. But then you might as well bore the holes out from 35mm to 40mm and fit tapered roller bearings and do the job properly.

And yes also, we decided in the end to leave Brian's lathe "loose" mounted rather than clamp it down and twist the bed. The lathe's manual says not to tighten the mounting bolts tight because it might break the bed footpads. That, we don't need. I have it turning parallel within .01mm over a 100mm length with no centre, and over 200mm with a centre just sitting on the bench, so I reckon that will do him.

So Brian will, as you say, get on with using the lathe and see how it goes. He is already amazed to watch it take a 1mm deep cut on steel today and can see already it is much improved. Hopefully now he can get on with making his models and learning basic turning instead of battling machine gremlins.

He didn't get to take it home yet though. The saga continues! His very nice little cast iron faceplate arrived so I will mount it up in the Mighty Drummond and machine the register recess to fit his headstock spindle and set it up for him.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by Ketan Swali on 07/11/2015 13:49:05:

Posted by John W1 on 07/11/2015 13:32:45:

So the bearing man's idea does make sense – higher balls = bigger contact area.

John

–

Sorry John, it doesn't, particularly not in this case or application. True bearing people as encountered by Hopper are always colourful. Unfortunately, very very few about nowadays. most of the old colourful mob from the U.K. left a while back and live in Spain.

Ketan at ARC.

Perhaps you should phone up who ever makes Unimats and tell them to stop doing it then Ketan. Doubt if they will take much notice, owners or sellers of replacement bearing either. Oddly enough they are very precise lathes. Weird that isn't it.

Sorry but I get cheesed of by no you can't when you most definitely can people.

John

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[HopperParticipant @hopper]

John W1

Yes I took a look at the Emco/Unimat bearing set up when looking for alternatives for Brian's lathe bearings. It seems the Belleville washers could be a good idea. Would require machining a spacer etc to make it work. Although, I did come across several comments that the bearings were the weak points in the Emco/Unimat lathes.

The China quality question has no easy one-size-fits-all answer, I believe. I read a book “Poorly Made in China” by Paul Midler, who works in QC in China. There is a good summary of it here **LINK**

He makes some interesting points, eg large reputable factories that get QC certification and pass independent tests etc, then subcontract work out to cottage industry workshops because they can do it cheaper by circumventing pollution and safety laws. Also points out that most factories operate on slim margins and at the same time want to make as much money as possible as soon as possible because nobody over there knows when the next edict will come down from the party and the whole ballgame changes.

It is interesting stuff, because as you say, some Chinese factories can and do turn out top notch work, often for the world's leading brand names where quality is a must. On the other hand, we see machines and parts like Brian's commonly. I absolutely will not fit Chinese parts inside any motorcycle engine or gearbox I work on. Some are good. Some are bad. But I can't take a gamble on a piston disintegrating and ruining a whole engine, or a gear breaking off teeth that jam a gearbox and spit the mainshaft out through the casing. I pay the extra money and fit US-made parts only from reputable brands.

The latest QC debacle in Australia is thousands of kilometres of 240volt electrical wire made in China and sold here has been found after a few years of use to have disintegrating insulation. It has started several house fires and now will have to be pulled out of thousands of newly built homes and buildings and replaced. Seems like it used to be good wire that passed the required Australian safety standards, but then as time went on the plastic used for the insulation was substituted by a cheaper product (probably recycled based) that did not last very well at all.

I guess they will get it sorted out over there eventually. After all, Japan started off post-WW2 making "Jap junk" and nobody tops Honda, Toyota, Mitutoyo etc for QC these days. But having worked in Hong Kong for a few years I know that business ethics over there consists of whatever you can get away with. Of course, the big corporations worldwide are on that bandwagon too, so who knows?

[Brian JohnParticipant @brianjohn93961]

Chinese QC : ''The mountains are high and the emperor is far away.''

Edited By Brian John on 08/11/2015 11:04:16

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Brian John on 08/11/2015 11:03:11:

Chinese QC : ''The mountains are high and the emperor is far away.''

.

An interesting choice of quotation, Brian

**LINK**

MichaelG.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

They upgraded the disk springs on the later machines Hopper. There is a fair stack of them so small changes in distances don't have much effect on the loading the springs give. I've wondered if I could graft something into my boxford but don't know how well it would work out on a more powerful machine and there isn't enough extra length on the spindle to do anything sensible anyway. I was on the yahoo unimat group for some time and no complaints about bearings there. Really when they are used like this there isn't much difference to angular contact other than contact angle. I've no idea about that aspect. Maybe they wont last so long, maybe they will. I do associated disc springs with relatively low power stuff though but that's gut feeling really.

I ran a used Toyota Celica for 12 months or so when people laughed at Japanese cars. One review I had seen in a fringe car tuning mag went through the model pretty thoroughly and were impressed. I had a Triumph Stag and strange engine noises so needed something quick. All in all it was a pretty impressive car and I ran it for longer than intended. Price wise it was pretty amazing. My wife to be turned up her nose but changed her mind after being run around in it as did several friends. Later as we ran a 4×4 I bought another one. Not with the 4 valve per cylinder high reving drop forged piston engine one of my cousins who worked at Holbay worked on but a more moderate version. An outstanding car, it drove and even sounded and felt just as Brit sports cars should. I later found out that they had been talking to Lotus. It did feel a bit like one, I have owned a couple and there is something distinctive about cars Chapman passed off. I changed the plugs on it. The engine ran a little rough while the electronics sorted itself out to match them. LOL People talk about .de attention to detail. At this time they started including goodies for free, some were gimmicks some not.

I have some "jap junk" microscopes. They knocked them out at around 1/2 the price of the west. Optics very similar some makes worse some better. They didn't last as long mechanically but in real terms lasted more than long enough.

I suspect this bloke had a lot to do with there success but there is a need to read up on his philosophy and also some examples of what it achieved in real world results – essentially a quality feel / look often at lower cost,

**LINK**

They also largely due to lack of space had some interesting ideas concerning running factories and supplies. Used the world over now. Other interesting aspects as well – what to do if production gets behind. The supplies keep coming so you stack them in the corridors or where ever as it encourages people to speed up. That one goes way back.

It's not QC Brian it's how they choose to make them. I suspect a lot of what Hopper found on the saddle fit was casting distortion following machining. I suppose they could leave the parts in the moulds longer to cool more slowly = more moulds needed and then leave them lying around for a couple of years before doing anything with them = a lot more unpaid for stock but once machined with a casting of that shape they would probably still need to machine them again to do anything about it. Start checking them = slow and many would be rejected. This is why they are so variable. People are well aware that they are buying unground parts that fit together and really should be ground but in real terms it isn't just as simple as that.

Company balance sheets are very much look after the pennies and the pounds look after themselves.

Cars – I tried a couple of Kia's before buying my current car. All I can say on that score is watch out manufacturers. Other make retailers though are still trying to treat them as disposable cars – worthless once they have had one owner. They never have been that bad really only a bit rustic, before Hyundai got hold of them.

Hyundai make lathes and all sorts of things but not much use to Brian. Me well I have been running Korean tyres for some time. Fitted as OE on some makes now.

John

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Edited By John W1 on 08/11/2015 16:08:41

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

A fellow Kiwi has just bought a Sieg X3 mill off Trade Me (Kiwi version of Ebay), had to pull it to bits to get it in the workshop, opened one part (the column I think), full of sand.

Brian, with Hoppers help will understand his lathe better than most who are just starting out, when you start your apprenticeship as a machinist you don't usually have to build the lathe—-Perhaps it's not a bad idea.

Ian S C

[Author]

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