New lathe arrived today : The ongoing saga

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Then it was on to the scraping for the fine-tuning. I had to make a tiny little scraper out of a surplus flat file because all my scrapers were made for working on power station turbines and thousand-ton stamping presses etc and would not quite get into that crowded V way with the big lumps of metal sticking up beside it.

A blurry picture of the scraping in progress. You may be able to see the diagonal patterns were you scrape alternate directions at 90 degrees, slowly removing the blue high spots.

So, scrape scrape scrape scrape scrape and we get to where we have a larger contact area on both ways, again shown with wodges of blue for the camera. But the contact area has come down the V way almost to the point. I decided to leave it at that because to get the edge of the scraper right into the point you have to cut a groove down the apex of the way, and that would weaken the already tiddly cross slide even more.

Bit more of a real world view with less blue splodged on it

For our purposes, mating to the main bed ways that have not been precision ground or scraped to match a reliable gauge-room template, this is good enough. The carriage will now sit on a larger area, making it more stable and smooth-acting. The scraper marks will help retain a bit of oil for lubrication too. No, no fancy frosting finish etc. That's for show ponies.

So that is the carriage ways cleaned up rather nicely. Next step will be to flip the bed over and get the file and stones onto those underneath ways and get them nice and smooth and dead parallel to the bed top ways. Once that is done, we can look at fitting that gib plate/clamping plate to the carriage and setting it up so it will slide nicely all the way from the headstock to that 5-inch mark from the other end where the bed falls off the edge of that five thou cliff. I am not even going to try to rectify that last bit. It will only be used to park the tailstock when not in use so it can stay as is.

And once the carriage is sliding smoothly and steadily, we can chuck up a test bar and see if it indicates that the headstock is sitting on a similar 5 thou drop-off at the other end of the ways. If it is there are three ways to deal with it: leave it and live with a slight taper on turning jobs, scrape the bed down flat (sorry don't have weeks of spare time to move that much metal) or shim the low end of the headstock (not the best for solidity but we'll see. It might be just fine.)

Will probably have a rest day tomorrow, so more Optimum news after that.

Edited By Hopper on 31/10/2015 08:19:08

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Brian that lever slackend the belt tension so you can easily move the belt from one pair of pullies to another and then tighten back up

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

To cleanse the palate, and provide a benchmark

Here is a video of a near perfect 'small lathe' … Lorch KD 50

It's over 40 minutes long, but edited into convenient chapters.

Superb Design, and obsessive attention to detail.

MichaelG.

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Edited By Michael Gilligan on 31/10/2015 09:50:49

[David ColwillParticipant @davidcolwill19261]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 31/10/2015 09:49:37:

Here is a video of a near perfect 'small lathe' … Lorch KD 50

You can still hear the clocks ticking when it's switched on!

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by JasonB on 31/10/2015 08:14:18:

Brian that lever slackend the belt tension so you can easily move the belt from one pair of pullies to another and then tighten back up

It's a slightly revamped version of the old 918 lathe. The belt drive version. The gear head one was extremely noisy as it didn't use precision ground gears and usually leaked oil. A well regarded lathe. Lots of people bought them and many retailers reckoned that it was easily the best far eastern lathe in it's day having had problems with some previous ones. Having seen them I wonder if things have improved further or gone backwards but have never looked at hidden surfaces. Accounting for inflation it wasn't that cheap a lathe. Not long after this period .de started mentioning spindle run out – meaningless on it's own.

I mentioned turning steel and rigidity along with Jason. The only problem with that is that it should be possible to take some sort of cut even if it's only an extremely light one. One problem with extremely light cuts is that they don't take out any play in the system and that will wreck finish. That aspect has a problem as well – it should be possible to set a cut that as far as the lathe is concerned puts the same load on it as aluminium does and that should give a similar level of finish on both materials. Maybe Hopper's work will help.

Just in case some one gets Taig / Peatol 1/4hp fever – when new the lathe will turn very accurate work, no real signs of taper etc, also give an excellent finish with suitable tools. With this level of power however something some where, probably the head bends and the lathe starts turning a taper. When I noticed that this had happened it was something of the order of 0.004" over 4". I can't really remember the exact numbers. Finish was still very good. Some people cure this by shimming the head now and again. The ER16 head may be better but I suspect it's down to the use of aluminium. It looks to me that they are a lot less bother than baby lathes though.

John

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[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

A quote from Optimum's website:

"Since 2003 OPTIMUM produces a large part of its metal processing machines in its proper factory at the Chinese Yangzhou with a German production manager and quality management representative.

Development, design and quality management mainly take place in Germany."

I think when they say "proper factory" it is a mistranslation and should read "own factory". But note that the production and quality managers are German! Perhaps things would be better if they were Chinese .

Russell.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Russell Eberhardt on 31/10/2015 11:05:13:

A quote from Optimum's website:

.

… and a link to Yangzhou

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 31/10/2015 09:49:37:

To cleanse the palate, and provide a benchmark

Here is a video of a near perfect 'small lathe' … Lorch KD 50

It's over 40 minutes long, but edited into convenient chapters.

Superb Design, and obsessive attention to detail.

MichaelG.

.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 31/10/2015 09:50:49

He has a rather nice piece of brass there. Mine seems to be a bit hit and miss.

Schaublin are the leaders in that particular line of lathes. Famed mainly because they made interchangeable parts that didn't lead to any loss in the basic accuracy of the lathe plus lots of bits and pieces.

If you want to see the sort of thing the UK was producing along these lines here is a for instance

**LINK**

Pity no price is given. There was also a more recent attempt during the 60's

**LINK**

There is a list of others on this page

**LINK**

As I am a bit of a lathe nut. I did have a Lorch for a while and a small Schaublin. I still have a Boley and now after a long long wait a Pultra. I reckon Holbrook and one or two others got it right. The best answer to bearings if some one want the word precision to have meaning is to try and make sure they never wear out.

Adjustable bearings sound fine until it's time to adjust them. There is a need to look into re aligning them after adjustment which means some very light very precise machining. Ideally when they are in place on the machine.

My Boley is this one but fitted with a conventional slide rest, same collet closer. They use a 2 speed motor, Bearing adjustment is "interesting".

**LINK**

I suppose Brian could sort out something along these lines but he probably wouldn't like the weight and sorting them if the wear is excessive can be difficult. Not impossible though.

 

John

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Edited By John W1 on 31/10/2015 13:53:31

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by John W1 on 31/10/2015 13:52:51:

Schaublin are the leaders in that particular line of lathes.

.

John,

Wonderful as Schaublins are … I have never seen a Schaublin so compact and 'integrated' as that little Lorch.

Add all those features to a Schaublin 70, or the Pultra 1750/1750, or [say] a Cowells, and you will need much more bench space.

MichaelG.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Not so sure about that. This for instance is on wheels.

There is an entire genuine Pultra drive unit in the back of the cabinet. Due to be replaced with something else at some point. A number of other bits and pieces too. Plenty of room.

Not sure if Brian is into woodwork but it's surprising what can be done with a straight edge, circular saw and a router. It could even look like a piece of furniture complete with a fold out cover for the lathe.

The colours of that one look a bit 50's home made kitchen stuff to me.

John

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[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Looks like we are unlikely to agree on this one, John

The Lorch includes an overhead drive within its tiny footprint; and I'm quite sure that I couldn't match that level of integration with my Pultra.

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Too late to edit my last post

Here is the aforementioned tiny footprint.

… I remain very impressed.

MichaelG.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I think Pultra did a similar sized short bed model P Michael. That would have been often fitted with a more powerful motor due to the 10,000 rpm aspect which would push the footprint size up. There will be other what in most respects are watch makers size machines that are a little bit more rigid than some are.

Not really suitable for Brian. Some form of production lathe of a similar type that takes chucks directly on the spindle rather than via having a collet fitting on the back might be.

The footprint of my Pultra is 19" x 15" with the usual hefty Pultra drive mounted underneath. There is actually more room available at the back so a countershaft for an overhead drive could be added. I'm more interested in a self powered spindle that will fit anything I happen to have.

Talking small lathes it would be nice to find one of these for free – I don't think I would like to bid for one on ebay.

**LINK**

John

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[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Another quote from the Optimum website:

Premium machines

Our Premium products are manufactured by our ISO certified subcontracted manufacturers in Europe. Beside a qualitatively high production we can also provide a considerably more rapid and flexible order processing.
Beside a considerable gain in quality we can also provide technically and optically high quality products of high functional safety.
This also includes the use of high quality components which are manufactured in Europe.

So unless you get the Optimum Premium product, you get the Optimum Very Ordinary jobs I guess.

I don't think it is fair to compare the baby Optimum to a Lorch or Schaublin though. Even secondhand they cost way more than the little Optimum and were intended as professional watchmaking machines were they not? Perhaps an Adept would be a fairer comparison??

A Kia is never going to be a Mercedes Benz. (But it should at least drive in a straight line and the cylinder bores should be honed rather than rough bored.)

[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

Whilst the Pultra/Boley/Lorch/Schaublin option sounds really good, sadly these machines crop up very very rarely in Australia. In the 10/12 years that I have been looking, there has been a Schaublin TR102 without a motor, a Pultra 1590 with a large lump missing from the cross slide, a baby Pultra, and a fairly basically equipped Cowells. That's about it. There was a rather nice Murad "Antartica" that I went to make an offer for, only to find that it had just been sold. It may be different in Sydney or Melbourne.

Looking at what is available in the UK and US makes me very envious.

cheers

Bill

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Bill Pudney on 01/11/2015 05:55:33:

Whilst the Pultra/Boley/Lorch/Schaublin option sounds really good, sadly these machines crop up very very rarely in Australia. ….

Looking at what is available in the UK and US makes me very envious.

cheers

Bill

Me too, Bill. While I treasure my old Drummond M-type, and have to pay a fortune to get bits for it shipped from the UK, I turn green every time I look at FleaBay UK and see whole M-types in good nick selling for one or two hundred pounds.

[VicParticipant @vic]

Posted by Hopper on 01/11/2015 05:44:21:

A Kia is never going to be a Mercedes Benz. (But it should at least drive in a straight line and the cylinder bores should be honed rather than rough bored.)

Very true, Kia are far more reliable than Mercedes that's why you get a seven year warranty.

**LINK**

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 31/10/2015 09:49:37:

To cleanse the palate, and provide a benchmark

.

Sorry folks: I had no intention of driving this thread off-topic

I simply wanted to share what I consider to be an excellent piece of design.

Just occasionally, even if [or perhaps because] it is out-of-our-reach, it's good to study something like this.

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 01/11/2015 08:15:34

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Quite so Michael. Truly they are objects of beauty and worth a diversion to savour. I particularly like the Rolls Royce micro lathe linked to above.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by Bill Pudney on 01/11/2015 05:55:33:

Whilst the Pultra/Boley/Lorch/Schaublin option sounds really good, sadly these machines crop up very very rarely in Australia. In the 10/12 years that I have been looking, there has been a Schaublin TR102 without a motor, a Pultra 1590 with a large lump missing from the cross slide, a baby Pultra, and a fairly basically equipped Cowells. That's about it. There was a rather nice Murad "Antartica" that I went to make an offer for, only to find that it had just been sold. It may be different in Sydney or Melbourne.

Looking at what is available in the UK and US makes me very envious.

cheers

Bill

I wouldn't be too envious. Often the machines are so far past their sell by date that they don't really deserve their reputation any more. There are exceptions but the odds are against buyers. It is possible to buy a recon'd Schaublin from a UK agent but as would be expected it will cost Schaublin prices. I'd guess the same could be done in many parts of the world. As to the rest the lathes are often 60 years old or more and will have done serious amounts of work at some point in their lives. People were sitting at lathes and turning all day in fair numbers when these types of lathe were in wide spread use. Maintenance will have varied, owners will have changed. Just to illustrate the point go back a bit further and people were making car parts by hand on milling machines in large factories that employed vast numbers of people.

I don't think straying into this sort of thing in a thread like this one matters Michael but I apologise too. People need to be aware of what they might be getting in to. Frying pans and fires spring to my mind in this area. i wouldn't have bought the Pultra in the photo unless I could go along and actually use it. From that my next aim was to find one that had obviously been just lying around for a long time unused and needing a sensible amount of cleaning up that I could actually go and look at – just in case for some spares as the other one did show signs of being cleaned up. This other one allows me to upgrade to a 1770 if I want but the 50 came with 40mm riser blocks. Some one on here sold me a head less spindle so I now have a reference for making new bearings without disturbing the others. Must admit it is easier to do this sort of thing with Pultra's in the UK but it can result in rather a lot work to get the lathe to behave as it should do. I don't see the point in owning one unless it does. Others though are more interested in the names scattered around their workshop. I have seen a couple like that where it was pretty clear that not much if any work is done with them. Other people use them and put up with the problems. It's rather noticeable that ebay prices in this area have dropped – I'd guess people are wising up or maybe many who are interested have died off. Michael's Lorch equipped as per the video would still cost a lot of money even if it was mostly worn out or even covered in rust which it might have been at some point.

John

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Edited By John W1 on 01/11/2015 10:58:15

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Bill Pudney on 01/11/2015 05:55:33:

Whilst the Pultra/Boley/Lorch/Schaublin option sounds really good, sadly these machines crop up very very rarely in Australia.

There's never been much demand for watchmaking down-under. The watches are all 12 hours out.

Neil

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 01/11/2015 11:53:27:

Posted by Bill Pudney on 01/11/2015 05:55:33:

Whilst the Pultra/Boley/Lorch/Schaublin option sounds really good, sadly these machines crop up very very rarely in Australia.

There's never been much demand for watchmaking down-under. The watches are all 12 hours out.

Neil

yes, but the 12 is at the bottom of the dial and the six at the top, so it all evens out.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by Hopper on 01/11/2015 12:03:17:

yes, but the 12 is at the bottom of the dial and the six at the top, so it all evens out.

Yeah, but that puts you 6 hrs out. What you need is a rotating bezel and turn the numbers a full turn forwards

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 01/11/2015 11:53:27:

Posted by Bill Pudney on 01/11/2015 05:55:33:

Whilst the Pultra/Boley/Lorch/Schaublin option sounds really good, sadly these machines crop up very very rarely in Australia.

There's never been much demand for watchmaking down-under. The watches are all 12 hours out.

Neil

No it's because water goes down the plug hole swirling the wrong way so pendulums run backwards.

They aren't really watch makers lathes either. More instrumentation and volume production of small bits an pieces. Micro lathes are small so loads can be put in a relatively small rooms plus no real worry about floor loadings. Many of them had capstan attachments available for them. Some Myfords too. There was a company not far from where I live making brass fittings on small myford capstan lathes even up to around 15 years ago. With the right gear on a capstan lathe the general condition of the lathe doesn't really matter. In fact loose slides and bearings can help as they let the work self centre.

John

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[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Well the Optimum is coming together quite nicely, if a little slowly.

Good news is the headstock spindle alignment in the vertical plane is basically spot on. So that end of the bed must not have the same .005" fall off that the tailstock end has. All good. Not quite so good, but not a major problem, is the spindle alignment in the horizontal plane is +.002" (.05mm) over a six inch length of ground bar held in the chuck and set to the neutral runout position. (Pics to come.) We may be able to tweak that by using the Myford trick of deliberately putting a twist in the bed at the bolting down stage in order to get it to turn parallel.

So it was back to the carriage and those lower bed ways. I decided to tidy up the cross slide ways on the top of the carriage before mounting it back on the bed. Easier that way. So a bit of bearing blue on the well-ground cross slide's sliding ways and slide it along the ways. A quick touch up with a three-sided file and the small scraper got rid of the rough machine marks and got a good consistent contact area. With the half nut re-installed and the feedscrew in place the cross slide just glides back and forth with no slack, no drag. Beautiful!

Then flipped the bed over and had a look at the lower ways. Yes, rough milled and still not quite parallel to the top ways, getting thicker at the headstock end by a few thou. So out with the small three-sided file and the slip stone to smooth down the ways and remove that couple of thou from the headstock end.

Then put that "clamping plate" gib plate in the lathe and faced it off flat, filed the concave out of it and scraped it a bit to sit flat on a plate glass.

So with it reassembled with the clamping bolts finger tight and no jacking screws in place, the carriage glides back and forth on the bed quite nicely. With the bolts tigntened up, there is about .024" gap between plate and carriage on three corners and one thou less on the other.

So next step will be to make a .025" shim pack to go in the gap so we can do away with the jacking screws. I am still not convinced about the wisdom of one plate gibbing two different ways. Makes super fine adjustment on one way without changing the other almost impossible. We will see how we go.

Probably will have a rest day tomorrow, so might be able to post some of the pics I took this morning.

Overall, it's coming along very well and I reckon it'll be a good'un when its done.

[Author]

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