New lathe arrived today : The ongoing saga

[john carruthersParticipant @johncarruthers46255]

Hi Brian, I may be teaching you to suck eggs, but how do you set your tool height?

An online mate in Sydney bought an Optimum TU1503 lathe from Machinery House, no way he could use it straight out of the box. He spent a week or so tweaking and adjusting but now it works fine.
Essentially he pulled it apart and rebuilt it. Voided his warranty of course.

[Steve PaveyParticipant @stevepavey65865]

Has anyone mentioned backlash? Every feed screw will have a certain amount and maybe you're not taking it up properly when applying a cut (at risk of teaching you to suck eggs here of course).

but if I get a poor finish this is what I do, more or less in this order:

1. Put a fresh grind on the tool, and maybe hone it with an oil stone

2. Check the centre height – a tool slightly above centre will rub, then deflect down with increased pressure and start to cut, then spring back up and the cycle repeats itself. Better to be a thou under centre than over.

3. Try a tipped tool instead of HSS, or vice versa (I've just turned a bit of stainless with a carbide tip and the finish was perfect, compared with what I was getting from an HSS tool).

4. Try a faster or a slower feed rate.

Sometimes you just have to put off the job you're trying to do and just concentrate on doing a series of test runs to get things right. If you don't yet have a bench grinder for sharpening tools you will need one very soon – I usually sharpen hss bits for every job, and more often if I'm cutting something tough. Scribe a few lines on the tool rest at say 0, 5 and 10 degrees so you get a feel for the side and front rake angles – for a 'standard' RH tool I would aim for about 5 degrees on everything to start with, maybe adjusting the top rake from 0 to 7 degrees for tough and ductile materials respectively – but that's just a starting point which works for me and you will have to experiment.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Brian,

I would like to suggest that you find a way to get someone, somewhere in Australia to help you – hands on. I understand all the geographical problems related to the point I am making. But, until and unless you are able to get this practical help – on your specific machine – I feel that you will find it difficult to get results you are looking for, on any machine, be it new or the old English.

Alternatively, you may want to consider the hobby where you only need to assemble parts, rather then make them. We are now on page 12 of this thread, and still we are at the begining of your journey.

I am aware that you have been in touch with Steven at AUSEE today with regards to buying a new C2 lathe. He called me for advice, because he has already suffered some losses in respect of damaged C0s which were supplied to you in the past. I know that the damages was not due to your or his fault.

Keeping in mind your geographical location, and lack of experience, and being unable to deal with electrical issues which could arise due to faults or resulting from your inexperience, I have advised Steven against supplying any electrical based products such as lathes and mills to you. I am saying this with the greatest of respect.

The thing is, Steven is still new to this business, and he will find it difficult to provide you with the support you need, which could run into 12 pages+, and there is just not enough profit margin in these products to deal with user inexperience, especially if such a user is in a location where self help is also an issue.

I am also aware that before the C0s, you also had a C2 which you sold off because it was too big. So, if you have any problems with a new C2 which is more heavy, the return becomes just too costly. Also, please avoid considering the product through Melbourne Tools on eBay, as they too will purchase this machine from Steven.

I hope you will accept these comments in the respectful manner that they are being made.

Ketan at ARC.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

If you are able to visit Hopper again it may be worth putting the lathe in the boot and taking it with you. Let him have a go on it and see if he can get a decent cut where you can't. At least that would eliminate user inexperiance as a cause of your poor finish.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

If Brian must have a small light lathe and this one wont work out who ever uses it I would be inclined to point him at Taig or Sherline. I can't comment on Sherline as I have never owned one. I have owned a Taig. I found 2 problems with it. Swarf on the rack feed. They seem to have provided a guard to get round that problem which can be rather irritating. The head bent spoiling the alignment. I should elaborate on that. I needed to repair a pulley so due to access problems had to machine a face of the V in one go with the riser block on. Something like a 3/4" cut with a very very fine hand feed. Later I needed to make a precise 7/8" dia mandrel around 5in long. When I mic'd it up there was 0.003" taper along the length. I didn't have any problem machining it in steps along the length to get to better than + 0 -0.0005". I have heard comments off several people that the initial accuracy of these lathes is spectacular but does drift out with use. The ER16 head may be better but I doubt if it will be as well aligned as the ordinary head. The tailstock is a bit naff but does it's job. The riser block is really made to allow a certain scale of loco wheel to be turned – not for use all of the time on longer work unless people don't mind the problem I had sooner than need be. I bought the basic lathe bits, 3 jaw, 4 jaw, face plate, fixed steady, tool grinding wheel, compound slide and the collets. As I machined the 3 jaw as described on the web I never used the collets. In my case Peatol told me what to do when I asked about holding 3/8 end mills. Looking at the Oz pages on these they now come with a variable speed motor, maybe the Sherline unit. Pass on what that will do. The original 1/4 hp motor and simple mount was more than adequate for the lathe. This is still shown on the UK pages and might still be available. The instructions on what to do with the lathe to set it up initially are on the Oz site. Seems they lap it with VIM and oil, I use a liquid version, CIF and oil. It doesn't take long to do and is only really slightly lapping what is already a good fit.

The simple tool set they do is also ok. The vertical slide can be used to mill down the thickness of carbide cutters if needed – the rather crude way that holds things is a lot better than some vices. Shim is needed to set the tool height. I'd wonder if the QCTP they do will work out with the compound slide fitted.

There was another problem – so much swarf at times that it was hard to see the lathe.

I mounted mine on a wooden bread bin and kept the bits and pieces in it.

Beginners – as the general aspects of the lathe are "OK" I can't really see why any should have any problems at all providing they don't exceed sensible cutting speeds.

I'd guess due to the motor that the Sherline's and the new Taig's aren't as powerful as the earlier Taig. That's either good or bad depending on how it's looked at. Personally I would prefer the power and simplicity of the earlier arrangement. Overload that motor and people will notice a smell. Turn off and let it cool and all is likely to be perfectly ok. I never managed to do that. Screw cutting might make the variable speed option preferable and the Taig still has a number of steps on the pulleys but there are probably designs about on the web for solving the speed problem on the earlier arrangement. Actually I'm not sure if screw cutting is available. Last time I talked to Peatol they were looking at adding it. That's some time ago now and I believe there was some diy designs on the web.

What a mad suggestion – buy a different lathe with a different problem. Why – well it should help people to learn to turn without some stupid problems that I have heard mention of before – more than once. It is pretty easy to hand feed on a Taig as well even though the wheel is rather small. In turning rather than maintaining alignment terms it's a very stable solid machine.

I'm totally disregarding what people might wish to make on it. They need to think through that themselves but actually I suspect that aspect isn't all that different to using any 12in centres lathe. It's just a bit smaller. I wish I hadn't sold mine and am looking at replacing it. That is turning out to be a tough task as I'd rather it was something that retained it's alignment and had screw cutting complete with an indicator.

Maybe there is a sherline owner about who can comment honestly on them. A longer bed is available with them also screw cutting. Variable speed though which would cause me to wonder about low speed torque if motor speed is the only way of achieving it.

John

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[Brian JohnParticipant @brianjohn93961]

1. The technician who repaired the lathe the first time is going to come out and have a look at it on Monday.

2. It is possible that the lathe has sustained some damage in transit however I would have thought that this would have shown up earlier. Things were going well for a few days.

3. The tool height is correct ie. in line with the tip of the dead centre. When facing off the end of a bar I am not left with a knob of metal in the centre.

4. Even the unused LH cutting tool from the Arceuro set is giving the same result so I doubt that the problem is the RH cutting tool. The carbide tips are even worse.

5. Results are worse on auto feed. I thought auto feed would eliminate operator error.

6. The Sherline machines are very nice and versatile lathes but they are not cheap, especially now with the Australian dollar falling like a stone.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by JasonB on 11/09/2015 13:07:32:

If you are able to visit Hopper again it may be worth putting the lathe in the boot and taking it with you. Let him have a go on it and see if he can get a decent cut where you can't. At least that would eliminate user inexperiance as a cause of your poor finish.

This might be a good idea Brian. I have seen ARCEurotrade's web postings on fettling these little lathes and it would not be to hard to go through and give it a bit of a sort out. I've got all the gear we would need in my shed. If nothing else, we could give it a quick check over and measure up the bed, spindle play etc to ascertain if there is a problem with the machine, and see if it can be made to behave itself with a more experienced hand on it. Happy to help out if you want. (And satisfy my own curiosity about these Chinese lathes!).

But best to wait until the company's tech has visited you again. Give me a call if you want to come out again sometime and bring the lathe with.

Edited By Hopper on 12/09/2015 00:48:32

[Steve PaveyParticipant @stevepavey65865]

Take some decent quality video of the machine being used, including some close-ups of the tool actually cutting, and stick it on Youtube for us to look at.

As far as I can tell from reading all this thread your problem boils down to poor surface finish and an inability to take a cut of more than 0.3mm. In my view that is caused by one or more of – feed rate, spindle speed, tool sharpness, or tool geometry.

Have you got a bench grinder? Just because you have a new tool doesn't necessarily mean it is either sharp or the correct geometry for the material you are cutting.

[Brian JohnParticipant @brianjohn93961]

Hopper : thank you, I will wait to see what the technician says on Monday and I will call you then.

I looked at the Taig lathes previously but they do not seem to come assembled. I am not so sure that this a good idea for a beginner.

It is interesting to see the exposed pulley and lack of a chuck guard on the Sherline lathes compared to the nanny state approach of Australia and the EU :

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Sherline-Model-4000A-Mini-Lathe-Micro-Lathe-w-Chucks-Made-in-The-USA-/251655364070?hash=item3a97d41de6

NOTE : the problem with small lathes travelling long distances is that some couriers tend to toss them about. They travel through many hands before they get to me and they often end up going through Australia Post in regional areas (although not in this case). Larger lathes cannot be ''tossed about'' and thrown into the back of a truck. Their sheer size and weight eliminates a lot of careless handling. I was told by one engineering firm  in Sydney that they send everything wrapped in plastic and strapped to a wooden pallet no matter how small the item.  This solved their damaged goods problem !

 

Edited By Brian John on 12/09/2015 08:01:13

Edited By Brian John on 12/09/2015 08:25:51

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Brian, if you still have troubles after the techie has been, maybe you could look to having a word with a fitter/turner at one of the engineering firms, or see what sort of things the metal work dept of a secondary school is doing these days, they may still be doing lathe work, but whether the teacher knows anything or not is another matter.

We had a night class here in metal work, and I ended up demonstrating the use of the lathes (my first go on a Boxford).

Ian S C

[Brian JohnParticipant @brianjohn93961]

I am not sure there is anything like that at the Cairns schools but I can ask. Not even the TAFE college here has a lathe course now as I have asked a few times. It seems to be all cooking and computers which is a bit annoying but this area relies on tourism and there is very little manufacturing here. My old high school in Brisbane has built a huge trade training centre in the grounds but I think Cairns is too small for that. The Men's Shed near here would probably be my best bet but let us wait and see what the techie says. Hopper has also offered to look at it if necessary after he has been.

I really do not think this is operator error. I was getting good results for two days. Also, the auto feed is producing a much worse result than the manual feed…..I do not think this should be the case.

The German company has replied to my emails regards the steadies : the follow rest is 14 euros, the steady rest is 17 euros and the postage is 180 euros. And I thought Australian postage costs were high !

Edited By Brian John on 13/09/2015 12:06:47

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Brian, you ain't seen nothing yet(postage wise). I thought perhaps one school might have had something, engineering in the north there is important. Our local High School has a machine shop, the town has less than 2000, the school about 600, coed, the girls get workshop time too.

Ian S C

[Brian JohnParticipant @brianjohn93961]

It is a ridiculous postage quote. I just received my Laura Stirling engine kit from Bengs in Germany. It was not a light item and it only cost 20 Euros postage !

 The TAFE college is more likely to have something than the high schools I think. Also, even if the high schools did have them, I doubt that anything would be available to the general public. There is usually a strict policy of students only. I did enquire about the trade school in Brisbane which I mentioned above ; you have to be an enrolled student of the school to access the facilities. Nobody wants ''unaccompanied adults'' on schools grounds now.

The technician did not show up today and I am not sure what is happening there….perhaps some good news tomorrow.

I have been practising drilling holes to match axles/shafts. I was spot drilling with the 6mm then finishing with the 6mm jobbing drill (aluminium). I found that I was not getting a good result and the drill often got stuck. So now I am spot drilling with the 3mm spot drill (going in about 5mm) , then the 3mm jobbing drill all the way through, then follow that with the 6mm jobbing drill all the way through. I then finish with the 6mm hand reamer held by hand in a drill chuck.

This is giving me a hole ranging from 6.02mm to 6.06mm. The hole seems to be slightly wider at the entry point than the exit point. Is this normal ? Given this result, I think I should be aiming for a 6.00mm minor shaft on the mandrel.

Edited By Brian John on 14/09/2015 14:33:54

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

You need to be drilling less than 6.0mm for a 6.0mm reamer. try drilling 5.8mm and then reaming. onld reamer in tailstock drill chuck and run lathe as slow as possible. Use a lubricant like kerosine or WD40

[SteambuffParticipant @steambuff]

Brian,

€160 postage does seem a lot …. I would find out the dimensions of the box and its weight and see if you can get someone in Germany (or Europe) to deliver it to and then pay them to ship to Oz.

Dave

[Steve PaveyParticipant @stevepavey65865]

As Jason says, drill slightly smaller tham 6.0 if you are going to ream. Also reamers have a very slight lead on them, just a few thou, so you need to push them through the hole as far as you can to avoid a smaller exit than entry.

I mentioned taking a video of your lathe in action in an earlier post to help see what is going wrong with your surfacing cuts – is that impossible for you?

[Chris DentonParticipant @chrisdenton53037]

Agree.

There's little point without pictures or a video.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Brian if you can't handle putting a Taig together I'm inclined to say, laughingly of course that you shouldn't go near any machine tool. As many people have pointed out your and other lathes are a bit of a casting kit. If so they can need a lot more work than a Taig does. My only reservation is the variable speed drive Taig's now have so it's a pity no one has commented because I suspect it will be the Sherline one or very similar. The other catch is the centre distance which a long bed Shereline would avoid.

On your steadies I doubt if the lathe is any different bed wise to any of the other common baby lathes. You could try a local order and send back if it doesn't fit. In the UK this would be taking an unfair advantage of the remote selling laws but sometime it can be the only thing to do. Just pick one that looks the same with the same centre height etc.

As to what to do Hopper is your best bet and I suspect a number of people would appreciate his views on the lathe before and after it's sorted out. This assumes it's not and electrical problem – it's hard to see why that would cause a finish problem. On cut depth I have heard similar comments from some one else. His opinion after some use was it's best used on plastics. This was one from Chester Machine Tools. I went up with him and said no not that one but later he did – weight the same as you. I suggested the usual mini lathe. This might surprise you but the salesman agreed with that too – pointing out that lots of people did do serious work with those. Not much choice really as I was looking as well and mentioned some things that I wouldn't accept on a lathe. That ruled out a lot of the ones they had for sale. Some of those problems may have disappeared since then. I honestly don't know but the baby lathe looks just the same.

John

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[Brian JohnParticipant @brianjohn93961]

John : I do not know what is involved in putting together a Taig lathe. It may be simple or it may be complicated but without having one in front of me to see and handle the parts then I really cannot comment. But I do find it very strange that they sell them this way. Do other lathe manufacturers sell their machines unassembled ?

The Australian distributor is going to ask again about getting in the steadies so it might be worth waiting to see the result of that enquiry. They said they have been selling a lot of these machines.

So I will be ordering a 5.8mm drill bit tonight…and maybe a 5.9mm as well. Thank goodness for ebay.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Taig do an unassembled one which is a bit cheaper, otherwise they are assembled. Pays your money takes your choice.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

John,

I refer to your comments:

Comment 1: 'As many people have pointed out your and other lathes are a bit of a casting kit.'

Re your Comment 1: This is a Chinese origin lathe. It is not from the SIEG factory, but at the end of the day, it is a Chinese origin lathe, assembled in a particular manner. So, to start with, who are these many people who say that these lathes are a bit of a casting kit?. Is it the minority who believe in the 'old English'? Do such people have experience with Chinese origin lathes? Do these people have practical engineering experience?….I dont mean the draft room or armchair or specialist toolroom engineers here either, nor do i mean the person who has endless access to funds.

In my sales experience of Chinese origin machines, I have seen mixed reviews by end users – far more positive then negative, be it from beginners or experienced 'practical' engineers, as well as people working on a budget. Certain people have ability, and some dont.

I would disagree with you when you say 'many people have pointed out'. I would counter that by saying that there are far more people in this world with Chinese origin baby and mini lathes who have had fantastic experience and results with such lathes as they have come from the factory, or they have had to make minor adjustments, or they have made adjustments to meet their specific needs. Again, it boils down to ability, experience, expectations for the budget.

I can back up my comments with factual statistics. In the 15 years+ of selling thousands of Chinese machines, I have had about 50 machines returned on bases of failing to meet the customers expectations for the price. I have indeed dealt with certain among these 50 who had ridiculous expectations, or certain persons among them who I would consider 'not fit for purpose'…still only 50 out of thousands does not make it 'many' does it?

Comment 2: On your steadies I doubt if the lathe is any different bed wise to any of the other common baby lathes. You could try a local order and send back if it doesn't fit. In the UK this would be taking an unfair advantage of the remote selling laws but sometime it can be the only thing to do. Just pick one that looks the same with the same centre height etc.

Re Comment 2: Optimum steadies are designed for Optimum lathes. SIEG steadies fit SIEG baby lathes only. One could modify to fit their whatever machine if one was that way inclined, if it was possible, and if one had the ability. However, to make suggestions in the manner you are doing is wrong, especially in this particular case. How would you like it if the tables were turned? Sellers are also aware of such abuse by 'an extremely small minority' of buyers, and each seller has their own way to deal with such people.

Comment 3: As to what to do Hopper is your best bet and I suspect a number of people would appreciate his views on the lathe before and after it's sorted out.

Re Comment 3: This reads as if you are presuming that the machine was not working properly when it arrived. The users ability in this and his previous thread – even as a beginner – is uncertain. First it was working, then he did some adjustments, then it stopped working so after a technicians visit certain wiring was bypassed, then it was working and they he did some other adjustments which made the machine stop giving good results which he was getting before the adjustments. In such a case, it is also possible that the failures observed are as a direct result of the adjustments. If Hopper can figure this out or not is open to question. I do hope that Hopper can fix the users problems but I have to suggest that there are two sides to every presumption here.

Ketan at ARC.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Johns W1s comments continued:

Comment 4: On cut depth I have heard similar comments from some one else. His opinion after some use was it's best used on plastics. This was one from Chester Machine Tools. I went up with him and said no not that one but later he did – weight the same as you. I suggested the usual mini lathe. This might surprise you but the salesman agreed with that too – pointing out that lots of people did do serious work with those. Not much choice really as I was looking as well and mentioned some things that I wouldn't accept on a lathe. That ruled out a lot of the ones they had for sale. Some of those problems may have disappeared since then. I honestly don't know but the baby lathe looks just the same.

Re Comment 4: You heard a third mans opinion and talk about a story during a conversation with a salesman. I can tell you a story too: Well, this all depends on the expected use of the machine, experience, expectation for the price. Personally, as a salesman, I absolutely dislike the C0 Baby lathe. However, in addition to practical beginners, I have sold a bucket load of them, to include sales to 'professional' watchmakers, clockmakers, engineers who use big lathes in their day job, experienced miniature model railway people such as Mick Nicholson (I dont care if you know him or not), bla bla bla, with great success. Such a lathe does not have a screw cutting facility, but it meets the requirement for turning metal, with or without adjustments/modifications to meet a persons needs, based on their ability. I would also add that I refuse to sell this machine to certain watch and clock makers who I class as beginners after discussion with them. This applies to such people who should buy a specific machine for their job.

My point is: your opinion is yours and you are entitled to make such comments. In the same way, there are thousands of people who are satisfied with the purchases they have made. To keep talking negatively without substance is wrong. But then again, this is an open forum, and everyone is entitled to put across their point of view.

Ketan at ARC.

Edited By Ketan Swali on 14/09/2015 18:06:44

[Brian JohnParticipant @brianjohn93961]

This lathe was running well for a few days after the technician visited. I did not make any adjustments until I started getting a bad finish. Upon investigation I noticed how much slop there was in the carriage when I moved it from side to side using my hands. I could actually see the tool moving about when I took a cut ! This indicated that the carriage had to be tightened up using the adjustment screws underneath the carriage. A phone call to the company confirmed that this is what those screws underneath are for. I did not want to go poking around under there for nothing. Up until then I had only adjusted the screws on the cross slide and top slide which is easily done. If I had continued getting good results I would not have touched anything at all.

Now it could be that I have not done this correctly and I must admit I had  about eight goes at it before I got it right. But there is now no slop in the carriage but I am still getting a bad finish whereas a few days ago I was getting a perfect mirror finish. And why is the result worse on auto feed ?

The conversation here about Chinese made lathes is interesting because it echoes that concerning Chinese made violins. I have been learning the violin for many years ; both of my violins are Chinese made and they are excellent. But go onto any violin forum and you will find people saying that they are all rubbish and they will not sound any good in 100 years time blah blah blah……that you have to buy a European made violin if you want to get a decent sound. The Chinese can make decent anything and when I look around my ''workshop'' it is hard to see a tool that was NOT made in China.

I don't care where the lathe was made : I just want it to work and I hope that all the problems will eventually be solved.

 

 

Edited By Brian John on 14/09/2015 18:42:56

Edited By Brian John on 14/09/2015 18:51:13

Edited By Brian John on 14/09/2015 18:56:50

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Brian, to check if the problem is the carrage can I suggest you lock the carrage to the bed, this is done with the cap head screw to the right hand side and then use the topslide to move the tool along the work. If the problem still exists then you need to look elsewhere, if it goes then it will most likely be the carrage.

Can you post a closeup photo of the finish

J

[Brian JohnParticipant @brianjohn93961]

I will try that with the top slide tomorrow as it is 4.00 AM here now. I should have thought of that earlier !

My camera is not very good and even using the close up setting the details are often not clear. I will have another go tomorrow and see what the photos look like.

[Author]

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