New Covid Rules

[Graham SwalesParticipant @grahamswales]

"If I read them correctly there is a suggestion that working on the club's business and could be exempt"

Sorry folks – H&S again! Every business must complete a documented Covid related risk assessment.

Not the answer you wanted I will accept but if you need any help, just ask…..

Graham

[Rod RenshawParticipant @rodrenshaw28584]

Re the last 2 posts:

I got the impression John was speculating that being on a working party on "the business of the club" would count as "working" and therefore be exempt from the rule of 6.

Whereas Graham has ( I think) interpreted John's post as being about being exempt from the need for a H and S plan,

So they could both be correct?

Though if John would argue that his team were working and not at leisure, they would ( per Graham) need a H and S plan?

Rod

[JAParticipant @ja]

Posted by Rod Renshaw on 12/09/2020 16:49:50:

So they could both be correct?

Rod

Going to court could decide this. But you do not want to go there.

JA

Edited By JA on 12/09/2020 17:15:18

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Well it all seems pretty unclear to me! My interpretation is no more than 6 people can gather for any purpose outside work, school, weddings and funerals either inside or outside? That seems to be the impression given in the various media reports? I listened to an interview with a top London police officer who said it was impossible to enforce as how do you deal with multiple groups of 6 stood 2m or more apart? I listened to another regional police chief this morning who stated they do not have the resources to enforce it and would continue to prioritise violent assault, RTA's, burglary etc and they have no resource to do anything else!

There are lots of situations where it is as clear as mud; museums – no more than 6 inside? Pubs and Cafes as I understand can still trade – no more than 6 inside and 6 outside or 6 in total? Including the staff? Heritage railways, will they have to close again with no more than 6 on site? What about shops? If no more than 6 are allowed inside would a queue of more than 6 outside constitute a breach?

Going down the track either with or without "paperwork" is the least of your worries!

Paul.

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

The latest BBC explanation is here but I am not really sure how much it helps with the original question.

BBC Covid

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by Paul Kemp on 12/09/2020 18:40:10:

Well it all seems pretty unclear to me! My interpretation is no more than 6 people can gather for any purpose outside work, school, weddings and funerals either inside or outside? …..

In the case of pubs or restaurants it's supposed to be no more than 6 in a group and at least 2 meters between groups but that can be shortened if screens are fitted. With that understanding it ought to be perfectly OK to have a few individuals or groups less than 6 playing trains outdoors so long as they organise themselves such that each groups keeps at least 2m away from any other and each group is composed only of that group's 6-person normal 'bubble'. Reality for our hobby is that it's likely just to be groups of 1.

From the epidemiological viewpoint it's still stupid when, say, it's OK to have 2 6-up groups each end of a tiny pub snug with low ceilings, closed door and lit fire compared to a high ceilinged room with good extractor fans fitted or open doors and windows. But equally one needs some simplicity in the rules and economic reality. My own clinic used to have extractor facilities capable of 11 air changes per hour each room.. mostly to deal with possible smelly events because you also have to consider where the air is being pulled in from.

Only 6 people in a supermarket or museum would be absurd. I'm sure we've all queued at one recently… in a nice line 2m apart from each other

pgk

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Well pgk essentially I don't disagree with you but the rules regarding pubs etc as I understand are guidance, the latest is law and it's incredibly weakly specified as evidenced by the different opinions on here! I have not seen any qualification to the basic sentence that says many groups of 6, 2m or more apart are excepted. In fact if you have a big enough venue I would think a clever barrister could argue you can have a wedding of 100 or more if there are no more than 6 in a group and they are at least 2m distant!

Paul.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by pgk pgk on 12/09/2020 19:38:52:

Posted by Paul Kemp on 12/09/2020 18:40:10:

Well it all seems pretty unclear to me! My interpretation is no more than 6 people can gather for any purpose outside work, school, weddings and funerals either inside or outside? …..

…

From the epidemiological viewpoint it's still stupid …

pgk

Very true. Makes more sense when the two conflicting factors in play are taken into account:

• Urgent need to restart the economy (lock down is costing us a fortune), and
• Stopping the virus spreading out of control.

Earning a living requires people to return to normal but doing so risks spreading the virus. The counter-measures are probably about striking a balance between getting people back to work whilst keeping R₀ < 1.0. (R₀ less than one means the virus is dying back, greater than one means it is spreading.

I think the Guidelines & Law are intended to encourage people to mix more in situations where the economy benefits whilst discouraging everything else. People going to a restaurant is risky, but there's economic benefit (employment etc). The same group meeting in a private home or at a Loco Club takes the same risk of catching Covid, but there's no financial benefit. I believe the measures hope to stop the virus spreading by discouraging low-value mixing between people in favour of situations earning a bob or two.

Striking a balance between public safety and the need to earn a living is far from easy. Be wonderful to give everyone simple guidelines but the situation is more like a game of chess. Whilst good players have a strategy, the next move depends on what the other guy is doing, and sacrifices will be necessary. Time will tell whether the government is a 'good player' or not.

If COVID doesn't fall back naturally, next gambit is to slow it down by testing everybody and isolating those who have it. Even better, an effective vaccine that can be given to most of the population in a hurry. The virus won't survive once we're all immune. Mass testing may not be possible in the UK yet, and effective vaccines are still in the pipeline.

Good news in the UK is the number of serious cases hospitalised by the NHS has dropped dramatically. At one point all the alarms flashed red as the service approached overload, but they got past the crisis. There are more resources available to treat anyone who catches it now. At the same time distancing, masks and hand-washing etc have reduced the viral load. The body is good at dealing with small numbers but breathing in millions of Covid viruses when someone coughs directly in your face is liable to overwhelm the defences. Keeping your distance and taking a few simple precautions reduces the risk enormously. Not a problem for retired gents like me to dodge Covid, much harder for bus drivers!

Dave

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Nobody needs to run a loco 8 hours in one go. So you can have morning and afternoon sessions, 7 days a week, of 6 people. That's 84 people. Does your club really have that many members who are desperate to get to the track? I'm getting concerned that there seem to be people in charge of a steam engine that can't understand some very simple rules.

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Well I am glad Bazyle thinks it's simple. However having read the blurb on the govt web site SOD is quite correct that there is no intent to interfere with activities supporting the economy (not that this has real relevance to an MES I would say) but the key to it is the word "socially" and the emphasis of a maximum of six in a group not mixing outside that group.

Dictionary definition of socially (from dictionary.com) as that is the first that came up is; "adverb. in the friendly company of others; in a genial or gregarious manner: We met through mutual friends who gather socially several times a month. in a manner that relates to human society and its configuration as a community: Her art strives to be both beautifully evocative and socially responsible".

So to the OP I would say you can have as many people as you like on site in any number of groups between 1 and 6 that do not mix outside of that group and the group does not get within 2m of any other group or person. With the qualifications that running a steam locomotive is deemed a social activity and none of the attendee's act in an outwardly genial or gregarious nature!

Oitside that you only need to consider the attitude and zeal of any official that may happen along such as the police officer in London wishing to charge a bakery owner with criminal damage for chalking 2m lines on the pavement to assist queueing customers (heated interaction with the officer and shop owner / members of the public, later apologised for by superiors) or a jobsworth Council Official with similar attitudes.

Enjoy.

Paul.

[Graham SwalesParticipant @grahamswales]

One last time. What does your Covid specific risk assessment have to say?

If the answer is "we ain't got one" then I suggest your problems are greater than worrying about 6 and out!

Graham

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by Graham Swales on 13/09/2020 18:13:46:

One last time. What does your Covid specific risk assessment have to say?

If the answer is "we ain't got one" then I suggest your problems are greater than worrying about 6 and out!

Graham

Do you mean with regard to wearing a mask? If so, you should be able to use the government risk assessment.

Remember: <<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>

Martin.

[Graham SwalesParticipant @grahamswales]

OK. I give up.

Bye folks!

Suggest a look see at the H&S Executive website would be a good idea.

But then it is "Elfin Safety" so who cares…….

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Posted by Graham Swales on 13/09/2020 19:51:28:

OK. I give up.

Bye folks!

Suggest a look see at the H&S Executive website would be a good idea.

But then it is "Elfin Safety" so who cares…….

I heard you! But to a degree risk assessments are subjective according to the view of the person doing them. Your risk assesment won't stand up in court if you have said, it's open air, as long as everyone keeps 2m apart we can have as many as you like (according to the governing guidance) but if the law says you can't have more than 6 people on site, your risk assesment isn't worth toffee as any kind of defence! As it happens reading the actual text on the government site that would do nicely as you have multiple "groups" of one and they do not come closer to each other than 2m according to the other guidance you can't get better than that. There is a world of difference in identifying hazards and putting control measures in place and complying with the law! You are completely free to put greater restrictions in place than are reasonably required under the law but that's where Elfin safety loses credibility! It's easier to say there is a one in a million chance of this occurring so we will ban it all together than look at the risk and control it reasonably because the risk assessor doesn't want to take any responsibility for a judgement.

To me, if anything the OP was asking what effect or implications has the new law on their operations which when determined any risk assesment can be made or assessed against it.

Paul.

[ManofkentParticipant @manofkent]

Writing as the OP, I would say this has been a much wider discussion than I expected!

Risk Assessments are important, and we do have one for Covid drawn up a few months ago.

However, as Paul Kemp says above my main concern was to comply with the new rules, made especially vital as they are no longer guidelines but law.

There is room for manoeuvre as they say in the number of groups of 6 we could have on a working day, but simple is best so we have agreed that we will not have a more than 6 in attendance on any running or working day, but we have now designated 2 separate working days each week to allow more people to come.

On the risk assessment I think Graham does have a point. Getting only 6 to turn up is easier perhaps than keeping them 2 meters apart.

John

[WearyParticipant @weary]

John,

Even in groups of six the individuals should stay 2 metres apart (or 1 metre with 'mitigation', which can be 'outside'  ), unless they come from the same household or 'support bubble'. The last sentence of your text suggests that these restrictions do not apply to 'groups of six' or fewer?

Gov't Core Document here. (Applies England)

Regards,

Phil

Edited By Weary on 14/09/2020 08:24:38

Edited By Weary on 14/09/2020 08:33:40

[ManofkentParticipant @manofkent]

Hi Weary

Of course we must keep 2 meters apart.

What I meant was that it only takes a lovely new loco to appear, or a technical problem with an engine, for willing hands to gather round and forget the 2 meter requirement!

This aspect can be hard to police.

John

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by John Hilton on 13/09/2020 22:07:34:

Writing as the OP, I would say this has been a much wider discussion than I expected!

Risk Assessments are important, and we do have one for Covid drawn up a few months ago.

However, as Paul Kemp says above my main concern was to comply with the new rules, made especially vital as they are no longer guidelines but law.

…

John

Perhaps the main advantage of doing a Risk Assessment is someone thinks about what could go wrong, how serious the outcome might be, and what can be done to reduce the risk and damage.

Risk Assessments aren't expected to be perfect, but done with reasonable care they easily out-perform a bunch of pensioners burbling about common-sense and the snowflake generation! Their approach relying on personal experience to keep out of trouble, and assuming risks are obvious to others is foolish. Particularly true of Covid-19. As the virus is new and strange, it can safely be assumed granddad knows s*d-all about it unless he's researched the subject.

Risk Assessments are often reluctantly churned out by chaps with a bad attitude. Rather than seeing the opportunities they treat the job as irksome bureaucracy. Any old rubbish will do: 20000 thoughtless words stuck in a filing cabinet and forgotten. Perhaps we resent being made to write essays on the Corn Laws at school!

Much better Risk Assessments can be compressed into a pithy few pages covering likely issues intelligently without getting entangled in details written in legalese.

Many Risk Assessments cover common situations and can be written once, applied repeatedly and reviewed once in a blue moon. Covid isn't like that! The risk posed to a club and it's members by Covid is continually changing. Therefore club Risk Assessments may have to be tweaked frequently too.

I suggest clubs should regularly review and update their Risk Assessments in so far as Covid is involved. It shows the club to be responsible rather than of bunch of lazy incompetents! Not full re-writes, keep it simple. A few broad principles state in the Assessment may help keep the word count down, for example:

• Club rules require members to meet all applicable law.
• The club will change access and other rules in line with government and local requirements.
• The Club Safety Officer will notify members when restrictions change and post them on a public notice board.

Apart from reducing accidents, Risk Assessments are also useful in the event of a legal challenge. A club that doesn't have a Risk Assessment at all is instantly in the wrong whereas an out-of-date Risk Assessment shows the law hasn't been held in contempt.

Say a foolish member comes in and ignores the Risk Assessment's guidance on Covid. If he infects a group of members, the club as an organisation isn't responsible. Provided the Risk Assessment makes it clear club rules have been broken, it's the member who gets sued, not the club. And of course breaching rules set by the risk assessment could be a reason for terminating or suspending the membership. Doing that keeps others safe because the club acts to remove the menace. Surely a good thing.

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 14/09/2020 12:11:06

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Our RA's are done on a pro forma matrix style form listing identified hazard, control measures and a simple scoring system. All kept in a folder accessbile to all and with appropriate review dates stipulated. For common tasks review is usually 12m but for things like portable track events where external circumstances can differ widely it is reviewed per use and any additional measures implemented. Very simple to do and hence most often done! We also maintain a COSHH file and are working on a safety management system / manual that will incorporate our running rules and various policies such as disabled access, equipment maintenance records, etc. which at the moment are stand alone documents.

What I find in commercial life is its all too easy to say something cannot be done because it's dangerous, rather than seek out ways to do it safely!

Paul.

[Roger ClarkParticipant @rogerclark]

Heads up, new lockdown coming next week.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Yep just watched the News tonight. Dam & blast. Back to the workshop.

Steve.

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

Am I the only one who believes that no one has a clue what they are doing, so the best thing to do is to pass a few new laws in the hope that it might all go away ?

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

It was a mistake trusting the younger generation to follow the guidelines – particularly some that should be in the upper half of the intelligence stakes (uni students). It has been clear that an awful lot of ‘raves’ have been taking place. There will always be an element who have a different agenda – like the mask-wearing dissenters and conspiracy theory followers…

‘You reap as you sow’ is one very appliccable olde saying. And it is the younger generation who are complaining of reduced future work prospects.

The whole population needs to get a grip on the situation, not just most.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

This should have been done weeks ago. Forget the daily numbers of cases and focus on the R number. If cases are low and R is above 1 behaviour needs to change. With the best will in the world the R is not going to fall much below 0.7 so with a large number of cases it takes a long time to get the daily numbers down. If R is 1 the number of daily infections stays the same. If you bring R back to 1 when the numbers are low we can live with that, do exactly the same when the numbers are high and we have to live with a high death rate which doesn't change week on week.

Get the numbers down and keep them down by early intervention is the least painful way of surviving until vaccines arrive. This is what the epidemiologists have been saying all along.

regards Martin

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

It's strange as this video seems to show people are keeping their distance.

Stay safe, trust the government, don't leave your bubble.

[Author]

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