New Covid Rules

[ManofkentParticipant @manofkent]

[ManofkentParticipant @manofkent]

So yesterday new rules (laws this time I think) were announced.

Here at Tiverton Model Engineers the Committee are now considering how these apply to our club. We run all year round with no public running by the way.

It seems likely we can only allow 6 people on site at any one time. We are already operating a system of pre booking site visits which will continue.

We may split our formal running days into 2 parts if demand exists.

I would love to know how other clubs plan to navigate these rules.

Many thanks

John

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Best advice would be to stay at home and wait to be told what to do next by the government, or maybe contact your local MP for direction.

Martin.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

A quick interpretation suggests the illegality of assembly in groups larger than 6 so :-

If you can isolate two groups of 6 on your site say doing maintainance in two separate areas then probably that would be OK. Not any different to groups of 6 meeting in a park and individually using a public toilet.

Are there any authorities you could ask for a proper interpretation.

regards Martin

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 10/09/2020 11:49:18:

A quick interpretation suggests the illegality of assembly in groups larger than 6 so :-

If you can isolate two groups of 6 on your site say doing maintainance in two separate areas then probably that would be OK. Not any different to groups of 6 meeting in a park and individually using a public toilet.

Are there any authorities you could ask for a proper interpretation.

Considering that the government is using one of the joke buzzword-generators as both a policy development tool and slogan producer, the answer to that has to be no.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Would pre booked bubbles of 6 not work?

Just use different parts of your site

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Posted by Nicholas Wheeler 1 on 10/09/2020 12:49:47:

Posted by Martin Kyte on 10/09/2020 11:49:18:

A quick interpretation suggests the illegality of assembly in groups larger than 6 so :-

If you can isolate two groups of 6 on your site say doing maintainance in two separate areas then probably that would be OK. Not any different to groups of 6 meeting in a park and individually using a public toilet.

Are there any authorities you could ask for a proper interpretation.

Considering that the government is using one of the joke buzzword-generators as both a policy development tool and slogan producer, the answer to that has to be no.

Well as the police are the law enforcers and this is law perhaps a visit to your local station would provide guidance.

I'm not sure the quality of the slogans has anything whatsoever to do with the matter. Whatever we think about the government non co-operation with the approach will not help matters.

regards Martin

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Nicholas Wheeler 1 on 10/09/2020 12:49:47:

Posted by Martin Kyte on 10/09/2020 11:49:18:

A quick interpretation suggests the illegality of assembly in groups larger than 6 so :-

If you can isolate two groups of 6 on your site say doing maintainance in two separate areas then probably that would be OK. Not any different to groups of 6 meeting in a park and individually using a public toilet.

Are there any authorities you could ask for a proper interpretation.

Considering that the government is using one of the joke buzzword-generators as both a policy development tool and slogan producer, the answer to that has to be no.

Rather than relying religiously on whatever government are saying today, I think it's better to observe their direction of travel and make my own mind up. Are precautions being relaxed, or tightened? (Today, tightened.)

Lock-down is costing a fortune and the government is keen to restart the economy by getting back to normal as soon as possible. Policy is to quickly push people back together in so far as it's safe. Unfortunately the virus isn't cooperating with a quick return to normality. At present the infection rate goes up as more people mix with other people.

Almost completely safe to stay indoors alone. Risk goes up if the house is shared with someone who goes out to work. Goes up again if people from other houses come visiting. Worse again if a visitor travels regularly on crowded public transport, goes on pub crawls, has sloppy hygiene, refuses to wear a mask and sleeps around.

Driving alone to a club where several mates are working out in the open on track maintenance is low risk. Two or more metres apart in fresh air is pretty safe. The same group crowding into a shed because it's raining is high risk, especially if one complains he can't taste his curry lunch this week, and everyone tries a spoonful…

Worst case scenario is a club were all the members believe Covid-19 is fake news designed to cover up the real problem which is 5G. Being determined libertarians to a man they insist on meeting shoulder to shoulder in an unventilated room with firm handshakes and Continental kisses on both cheeks all round. They share a handkerchief to demonstrate their disdain for the Nanny State and eat from the same bowl…

Local Government know of trouble in your area long before Central Government. Keep an eye on the local news: last week 3 pubs and social club near me had to close; this week a Sixth Form College. The virus is afoot! Reading the Daily Mail two weeks ago, I read an opinion piece suggesting the population should get back to normal immediately. The tone was we all Lack Moral Fibre. Very unwise because the virus doesn't care about right-wing journalism. (Or liberal views.) I suspect the confused messages coming from government are partly due to tension between the political desire to make brave decisions, and the sudden realisation that brave decisions aren't enough. Epidemics don't listen to politicians or do as they're told.

So I prefer to make my own mind up. Not difficult to alter my behaviour to reduce risk. When government advice indicates rising trouble I batten down the hatches and reduce contact with others. When government advice indicates recovery, I stick my head over the parapet and go out more. In both cases I'm aware the risk of catching Covid is relatively low and keeping my distance reduces it significantly. Wash hands, wear a mask, and keep 2 metres+ apart. Sitting in an aircraft full of strangers for a few hours just to go on a foreign holiday is off my agenda, but I wouldn't mind standing in a field with a few mates to watch steam locos in action.

The statistic I'm watching now is the number of new infections reported yesterday in the UK. At the moment it's going up. In a week or two, I expect the latest advice will push the daily number of new infections down again. In the meantime let's be careful out there!

Dave

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Thank goodness a 10pm curfew is being considered in the UK!

Stay Safe:

Be Kind:

Martin.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

At one point in Singapore even a husband and wife were not allowed to go for a walk together so count yourselves lucky.

It has been 6 non-family outside in England for some time. That isn't a change. A lot of people are so dumb they couldn't understand that the 30 rule was 2 (enormous) families only. It was on the government website in legalistic detail and on the BBC website in simple English. Business and commercial rules are different so for clubs that are Limited Companies much larger gatherings are technically possible provided the regulations are followed which in itself can be rather more onerous and complicated.
Many clubs can't muster as many as six at once and anyway don't have the miles of track that allow that many locos in operation at once. Obviously nobody should be considering public running for a while.

At SADMES we closed the track initially, Then as rules relaxed slightly allowed two both max and min ie one plus safety person. Then when allowed the permitted six there was necessary repair works which took the track out of use anyway. Still no club room activity. We don't have 6 locos in ticket anyway as steam test procedures have only just been agreed so we don't have a real problem. We did get 28 on our last Zoom meeting however.

At EDMES again it was closed initially, then a few wave and depart meetings on site so only 2 and no contact, then when work parties could resume things self limited by only a few people being available on weekdays and weekends left clear for the premises other activities. In practice for participants peace of mind and overlooking busybodies workers were split into pairs 50 ft apart. Having just got to the point of > 6 turning up it was still easy to split into well separated groups. Lunch break is the only time when things can get tight but still possible with distancing. This will be the part that may require particular attention in the risk assessment and rules.

The key added advise (which was always obvious to people with active brain cells) now is the emphasis that if >6 are present in 2 groups care must be exercised that there is total separation of the groups, no 'visits' by a foreman or organiser to both groups and it should be obvious that that also means that family members must all be grouped together or their return home would be a cross contamination.

I would recommend that even if you have a family group or other legitimate reason for a large group you avoid it as some local whinger is bound to come past and want to give your club maximum bad publicity.

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Apparently we are now to get local COVID Marshall’s on the streets, the reporter said they have no powers and will be employed by local government (but they do not have to do it).

These Marshall’s will be paid for by Taxpayers LocalGovernment.

You really couldn’t make it up even as a fairy tale!

Oh I forgot it’s Politicians making rules, so unconnected to the real world anyway.

Edited By V8Eng on 10/09/2020 23:49:39

[RRMBKParticipant @rrmbk]

+1 for SOD's common sense approach. I suspect the majority of us on this forum are at or close to the older end of the age spectrum and have the ability and experience to understand and dynamically risk assess our own particular situations pretty well and sensibly.

Relying entirely on government advice has some serious drawbacks

A It will always be behind the game line.

B Guidance and regulations will of necessity be a blunt instrument intended to work by creating a degree of fear in law abiding citizens

C There are plenty of people who will ignore the guidance and regulation because as in many other walks of life they don't believe the law applies to them

D Politicians ( of any colour) have two conflicting priorities, people and the economy. No brainer as to which one they will prioritise and it has everything to do with keeping their own bank balances well topped up.

Stay well stay safe and stay apart.

Best wishes all.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

This is all about managing risk.

We keep being told that advice is following the science. Unfortunately the advice given necessarily has to allow for economic and social realities and 'the science' that it's based on is not fact – it's based on historic similarities, assumption, speculation and opinion, albeit by folk with a better understanding of disease processes.

Any science first requires a theory and then requires an experimental method to prove or disprove that theory which in practical terms cannot be done with a national population. None of that is helped by the inevitable flip-flopping of opinion by WHO and other organisations trying to justify their costs and research grants and status

We also have to accept that any test method for a disease is based on sensitivity and specificity of any biological test and they all have a percentage false positive or false negative result such that one often has to run a number of test types to really decide for an individual or just use a single tool purely as a trend.

Remember we were told how washing hands would protect us? That otherwise touching faces or noses or eyes would contaminate us? Yet at the same time apparently eating food was safe?

There is no question that general hygeine reduces the risk of any disease so it keeps the public occupied and focussed and shows care for the population – WHO advice that all countries tried to follow.

However reality is that this is a respiratory disease and the main mode of transmission is by coughing and sneezing. Reality is also that the severity of disease is based not just in ethnic, age, genetic variables but significantly in viral load. To reduce viral load you keep a distance apart, reduce the distance a sneeze can propagate but most importantly you use ventilation to dilute the viral load – preferably with a laminar flow.

An outdoor hobby that doesn't require physical exertion or close contact has to be one of the safer pastimes so long as it doesn't end up as a group of folk huddled in a small shed drinking tea together.

Intelligent, sensible folk should be able to manage their own risk. Sadly the public as a mass unit have half with a below average IQ. I don't know what happened in your area but around here 'eat out to help out' ended up with every carpark near a restaurant clogged with cars and folk can't eat with masks on.

I continue to wear a mask filtered to protect me whenever I have to go into buildings other than my own home.

pgk

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I know it's difficult to keep government and politics out of it but can we try to stick to the original question "I would love to know how other clubs plan to navigate these rules." before the 648 has to come out.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Southern Fed have some guidance. Hats off to them for being proactive on this. Probably Northern Fed have something too but I havn't checked.

Current Covid Recommendations

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Can someone point me to the rules about posts that mention government and politics please – I need to understand them better.

Stay safe, Stay apart: <<<<<<< >>>>>>>

Thanks, Martin.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by blowlamp on 11/09/2020 09:26:50:

Can someone point me to the rules about posts that mention government and politics please – I need to understand them better.

Thanks, Martin.

Judgement call territory. The terms and conditions include:

… you agree to use the Website in a way that is proper and related to the Website. For example, you agree that when using the Website you will not:

• Upload, post or otherwise transmit any Content that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libellous, or invasive of another's privacy.

As Model Engineering doesn't normally involve politics, it's only loosely 'related to the Website'. Quite blurry though, because Engineering (How to make things) links neatly with economics (How do we make a living out of making things), which is closely related to politics (How do we want to make a living in general.) Mike, Jason, Neil and I might draw the line in slightly different places, but we'd agree the need to have a line.

I mention the bulleted list because some people are easily upset by the political views of others. Unfortunately my 'balanced judgements' can be perceived by others as being harmful, threatening, harassing or defamatory.

It's not that politics are an outright taboo on the forum, it's just that politics are more likely to annoy people than most other subjects. As the Forum is about Model Engineering and good fellowship, and has a commercial sponsor, posts veering towards angry exchanges of opinion are likely to get the chop. It's not about agreeing or disagreeing with posts or individuals, it's about avoiding trouble. Plenty of other forums available on the internet for expressing political views. I expect the Moderator of a Forum specialising in President Trump would soon zap threads discussing the best way to wire up single-phase motors, or how to move an Surface Grinder!

Dave

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by blowlamp on 11/09/2020 09:26:50:

Can someone point me to the rules about posts that mention government and politics please – I need to understand them better.

 

From a thread where you posted an hour or so afterwards.

I did delete posts this morning.

Edited By JasonB on 11/09/2020 13:32:39

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Gentlemen,

I am retired but have a part time job and I'm classed as a "Health Care worker", I work for a Chemist and deliver medication to patients twenty hours a fortnight and I come into contact with on average 100 + people, some are in personal lockdown and a few have had/got it, I follow all of the requirements with the exception of a mask unless I'm entering a building that requires it, but most of the time I'm outside so its not required.

Recently our Borough Council requested that all "Health Care workers" be tested as the number of cases were rising, so I made an appointment and that evening I was tested, two days later I had the results, negative, my point is if we obey the rules and restrictions within reason you can still get out and about.

Martin P

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Thanks, Dave, for confirming I hadn't missed anything in the T&Cs. What's 'The Tea Room' for then?

Whilst on the topic of do's & don'ts, I ask moderators to be more aware of casual racism in some peoples posts with regard to how they sometimes refer to products made by the population of China. This is done as if they are intrinsically inferior by virtue of the nationality of the people that made them, rather than the fact they are made to be more affordable – that is, down to the price demanded by the seller.

Martin.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by blowlamp on 11/09/2020 14:18:09:

Whilst on the topic of do's & don'ts, I ask moderators to be more aware of casual racism in some peoples posts with regard to how they sometimes refer to products made by the population of China. This is done as if they are intrinsically inferior by virtue of the nationality of the people that made them, rather than the fact they are made to be more affordable – that is, down to the price demanded by the seller.

You make a good and fair point Martin.

I do try to remove the more egregious examples; unfortunately there are some who classify this as 'knee-jerk' defence of chinese products or just overbearing moderation.

It isn't just China either, I will try to be more vigilant.

Neil

[Harry WilkesParticipant @harrywilkes58467]

Posted by V8Eng on 10/09/2020 23:44:34:

Apparently we are now to get local COVID Marshall’s on the streets, the reporter said they have no powers and will be employed by local government (but they do not have to do it).

These Marshall’s will be paid for by Taxpayers LocalGovernment.

You really couldn’t make it up even as a fairy tale!

Oh I forgot it’s Politicians making rules, so unconnected to the real world anyway.

Edited By V8Eng on 10/09/2020 23:49:39

"These Marshall’s will be paid for by Taxpayers Loca lGovernment."

Would anyone pay this guy even with rusty washers

[Graham SwalesParticipant @grahamswales]

In answer to John H's initial posting. It is not so much what "others" are doing but what your own documented risk assessment considers the outcome of the potential issues raised to be. Yes this means getting involved with H&S and yes I expect the normal childish comments regarding "Elfin Safety" but it is the way forward. Graham

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

What was the question? Ah yes, what is your club doing…?

Weymouth has instituted a booking system with an insistence that the limited groups engaged in specific aspects (the ground-level track, the raised 16mm-scale, road steam and maintenance / ground-keeping) keep apart from each other.

Once the maximum booking is reached the Secretary informs everyone, and anyone else who turns up on the day is likely to be asked to leave.

We have locked the club-room, barring congregating in there, and barring use of the kitchen facilities. The separate, small workshop is opened as it contains the toilet, with antiseptic dispensers just outside the loo as well as the normal soap and paper towels for the wash-basin within.

Our society has to be squeaky-clean legally as well as medically, because we are within a school's grounds also used by a public sports-centre. The Committee had to prepare a special pandemic risk-assessment to cover us, for the school's own H&S Manager although we are not a hazard to the school itself.

The change to allowing 6 to congregate did mean small working-groups could meet one day a week during the school Summer Holiday, by arrangement. Prior to that it was limited to just 2. These were engaged mainly in ground-keeping and track maintenance, and a few other small tasks.

'''

H&S Management is one profession I don't envy at the moment, and in places like schools especially must carry an awful weight of responsibility well outside accustomed areas of expertise and experience.

++++

PS. What on Earth is wrong with the phrase "family / social circle? If I make a bolted flange will its holes now have to occupy a pitch-bubble?

[ManofkentParticipant @manofkent]

Thanks to everyone for a lively discussion.

My main concern was that the new regieme will not be advisory like at present, but law.

The Southern fed rules (Thanks Bazyle) are interesting and helpful.

If I read them correctly there is a suggestion that working parties are working on the club's business and could be exempt, while running days etc are part of our hobby and have to comply with the new rules.

At Tiverton we are operating a policy of booking attendance beforehand. Running days will be split into two parts, to allow two groups of 6 on any one day.

A note will be sent to all members to advise of the new rules. What we really want to avoid are the circumstances where we have to turn a member away.

Discussions are ongoing about working parties.

John

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