New chinese lathe or old Myford lathe

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

My chief worry is that there simple aren't enough decent quality second hand lathes to go around.

The whole future of our hobby relies on people being able to buy decent quality, affordable imported machines.

I also know that the profit margins on these machines are modest. The companies who sell them don't want to sell people lemons or give poor customer backup because they make their living out of the customers who keep coming back for tooling and accessories not people who buy a machine and give up because it is crap.

Yes there are people who have had bad experiences with imported lathes. My mini lathe wasn't perfect, it faced ever so slightly convex, but it was ten years before I felt the need (and had the skill/confidence/equipment to correct it). I think it only ever affected two things I've made and I was able to work around it.

Today's machines are, on the whole, far superior to apparently identical machines of 10-20 years ago in terms of build quality, reliability, accuracy and specification. Buy from a reputable dealer who WILL put things right and you can't go far wrong.

Equally, second hand, you can be lucky and get a great machine via a private sale (I have) or get a crock of shirt (I have, luckily not hugely expensive items) with no come back. You can buy off specialist s/h dealers who have a reputation to look after,and pay a bit more but be more confident of what you get.

There's no right or wrong and in practice a new imported machine and an old British machine are likely to be much the same in practice. If you but carefully the old one will be worn in, rather than worn out, and if it has foibles you will probably forgive them rather than see them as faults.

There are enough machines about for everyone to be able to choose a machine according to their personal preference, but I do worry that sometimes advice is based more on prejudice and snobbery – on both sides of the argument – than it is one fact.

The lathe that is best for you is the one you will use regularly – simples.

Neil

[I.M. OUTAHEREParticipant @i-m-outahere]

Probably the best thing the op could do is give Ketan a call and talk to him about new Chinese machines and maybe try one of the advertisers in ME / MEW that deal in second hand machines .

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Juddy on 19/10/2017 16:23:54:

For me it split into what your aim is with the hobby whether it is old machinery centred and making the machines the best they can be for their age, or the things you wish to make with them. if its the machinery that drives your interest then buy an old British machine and have the pleasure of working on it and making it usable again. If its the things you wish to make which drives you, such as engines and the like, then buy new and get making.

This is so true. The old lathe itself can easily become the hobby. I spent several years getting my old Drummond M-type up to snuff and making accessories for it with not a single model engine made. Then I went and bought an ML7 that was too cheap to let it go by. Doh! Now it's all in bits in my shed being slowly reconditioned and reassembled, and eating up all of my shed time in the process. Had I bought a halfway decent Chinese lathe to start with, I would have made several engines by now, I'm sure.

On the other hand, my mate bought a used Hercus South Bend clone in good nick, cleaned it up and started using it right away, just like a new lathe. So it all depends on getting the right used machine, which as Neil points out in his post above are getting fewer and farther between. So it depends on timing too. If you live somewhere where there are plenty of used lathes for sale and have the time and knowledge to inspect them and wait until a pristine "cream puff" comes up, all well and good. But it could take months or a year to find that perfect used machine. With a new machine you can order it today and get started machining next week when it arrives.

So I think your first thing to do is start scouting around your region looking at used machines and get a feel for what's out there and how long it might take to come across a pristine example. Viewing some of the clapped out sheeters on the market and listening to their seller's high praise for them will be an education along the way.

Once you've had a look around you will be in a better position to decide if you want to buy new or used.

[James AlfordParticipant @jamesalford67616]

My comments, for what they are worth.

I was given a Flexispeed a couple of years ago. It was in excellent condition, with no apparent wear or major damage. It meets my needs in every way so far regarding size and capacity, and appears to be as accurate as I am ever likely to need, certainly with my current skill level.

However, it is incredibly frustrating that I cannot buy accessories to fit and have to either make or modify everything. I also looked at a new Draper mini lathe in the local tool merchants. I could see no reason why it would be any less useful or accurate than the Flexispeed, but accessories to fit are ten a penny from a variety of suppliers and E-bay.

If I had to choose now, much I as I like the Flexispeed and am extremely grateful for having been given it, I should almost certainly err on the side of a new Chinese machine.

James.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Hopper on 20/10/2017 01:09:50:

…

Viewing some of the clapped out sheeters on the market and listening to their seller's high praise for them will be an education along the way.

Yeah, but you have to be able to recognise them for what they are!

That takes experience, and some would rather develop experience in using machines to make what they want, rather than faultfinding and looking for – or making – scarce tooling and accessories.

[Ian Skeldon 2Participant @ianskeldon2]

I think Carl Wilson 4 has pushed my opinion towards a new Chinese one. Looking at the price he would have to pay now for the British lathe he bought, taking into account wear and price of used parts to replace even more used parts oh and then there is plus delivery.

Anyone could buy a very well equiped, very decent new lathe with deivery included and not worry about wear for a pretty long time. Until recently I owned a Chester DB10 from new and a ML7 from a deceased friend. I now feel that I made the right decision to get rid of the ML7 and keep the Chester, funny how other people's views can influence the thought process.

PS, thanks to John Stevenson I am now producing some very nice accurate thin grooves with my Chester.

[Chris Evans 6Participant @chrisevans6]

When looking for an old British lathe as I said before be prepared to travel and reject the dogs. I spent my 50 years working in the mould and die tool rooms of the Midlands. One place I stayed at for a long time replaced the Colchester Triumph 2000 lathe every 5 years, the lathes where knackered after 4 years but our finance packages paid for them over 5. Sixty plus hours a week in a contract tool room takes it's toll.

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

I’m glad my opinionated ramblings helped you in some way Ian! Whatever lathe you buy I wish you well with it and I’m sure you’ll enjoy making plenty of bedding for the stainless steel hamster, as my wife says to me!

There is no appreciable wear on my Harrison that I have been able to detect, either through using it or measuring. Maybe I just got lucky. I got burned when I bought a Chinese lathe and so did members of my family, such that I would never deal with Chester again. I hear Warco are much better.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

SOD, that radio site is interesting, my comunication receiver is at the moment a bit of a boat anchor, it's brain has died (again), its an Icom IC-R71.

Back to lathes.

Ian S C

[IanTParticipant @iant]

I have a old and somewhat worn Super Seven (certainly not pristine) but then I didn't pay very much for it.

I've learned to cope with most of it's little foibles but if I was starting over I would most likely buy a new Chinese lathe these days. However for much of my work I can get 'good enough for me' results out of it. I've made a few improvements but for most folk I suspect the effort required would be a nuisance…

Buy new if you can afford it.

Regards,

IanT

Edited By IanT on 20/10/2017 10:20:09

[Danny M2ZParticipant @dannym2z]

Here is my 20¢ worth.

China (as well as most other industrialised countries) are perfectly capable of building decent machinery.

The deciding factors between great, fair and adequate (given a decent initial design) are all down to quality control.

Decent quality control and inspection costs more than lesser standards so in a competitive market a hobby machinery importer is between the proverbial rock and a hard place.

The target market expectations range from a budget conscious hobbyist to more seasoned veterans so it is always a juggling act to get the balance right between price, included accessories and advertising expenses and then still take home a fair wage to feed the wife and kids.

Often the decider for the purchaser is the magic word 'SUPPORT'.

When on the odd occasion I have purchased an item that did not perform or was defective the response of the vendor was critical. A poor (or lack of) response not only meant a lost customer for ever but with today's social media probably a few others too.

The good side is that when a good vendor is found that act decently then the word spreads just as rapidly.

I have noticed that a few forum advertisers are aware of this and participate here – Well done to those people and smart thinking for keeping up with life in the iAge.

* Danny M *

ps. if I just invented a new word iAge then I claim all credit!

Edited By Danny M2Z on 20/10/2017 10:26:45

Edited By Danny M2Z on 20/10/2017 10:28:54

[Brian AbbottParticipant @brianabbott67793]

For whats its worth,
I have an old Myford super 7, and its great, does exactly what i need.
Due to its age its a little worn, and could do with a little TLC but its fine and would be worth doing.

Again, i have an imported mill, i have ftted a DRO and a feed, and again its great, does exactly what i ask.
Its only about 7 years old, what it will be like when its the same age as the myford is another matter, but for know its fine.

I think Neil hit the nail on the head, if there where no imported machines then there would be a lot less people enjoying the hobby,

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

In over twenty years I have bought one Chinese lathe new – and never used it so much for various reasons – quality, operation and I was not a maker of models – a Raglan LJ, which was bought to replace the former but languished unused for several years due to my health issues, and since using the raglan much more regularly I located a 5" model in extreeemly good order. That is replacing the LJ.

On the milling front, I bought a machine very locally which was only suited to very lightweight work. I bought a Raglan, ex a development toolroom (where the previous owner knew it was looked after and only used for protoype developments). It is a great little mill, but small. I use it quite a lot. I then bought the Centec which is ideal for most of my needs. – bigger, both horizonttal and vertical, and far cheaper than a chinese equivalent.

Andrew, on the forum, has seemingly fallen on his feet with his Centec purchase and a friend purchased an almost unused (probably only turned wood the few times it had been used) from an elderly gent who was never likely to use it again.

The three Raglans (2× 5" and the mill) were purchased fully knowing that they were in nearly

as-new condition and were far cheaper than either a comparably sized (and quality) new Chinese, or old myford in similar condition. That is why I buy old iron in preference to new chinese.

Oh, and I recently bought the Alexander shaper – can't even buy a new handraulic shaper, chinese, or other, these days!

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Danny M2Z on 20/10/2017 10:24:12:

ps. if I just invented a new word iAge then I claim all credit!

http://www.iageonline.com/

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

Wow! This has degenerated into a bit of a mess. New Chinese or old Myford was I think the question! This implies that the Chinese lathe is the same size as the Myford.

In my limited opinion, then IF you can get a good Myford at the RIGHT price go for a Myford. If not go for a Chinese lathe. If you want real versatility then a Myford wins, so much stuff available. If you want just simple turning, then go Chinese lathe.

Be very careful which supplier of Chinese lathes you go to. There a lot that offer similar lathes and they are not ALL to the same quality. For a slighty smaller lathe than the Myford. Then go to Arc Eurotrade. for a Myford equivalent, I would use Warco.

Ignore all the B/S about the Myford being flimsy, a similar sized Chinese lathe won't be much better! People are talking Colchester and Harrison etc. Sure, these a much bigger lathes and built for industrial use. They are much sturdier than a Myford or similar sized Chinese lathe. BUT they are much bigger so you would expect them to be sturdier! More to the point they are NOT the size you want!

There are a lot of clapped out Myfords around at a premium prices. Don't buy a Myford unless you can use it before buying and more to the point know what you are looking for. If you don't, then take someone with you who does! If this isn't possible, then buy Chinese. Simple isn't it?

Andrew.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Out of interest, the C4 is slightly bigger than a Myford (4×20 as against 3 1/2 x 19), weighs a bit less, but that's down to the much more compact motor and spindle arrangement, I would guess the bed is about the same weight.

I'm not convinced a Myford is more versatile. It does have a gap bed, but the MT2 spindle is a limitation.

The only accessory for an S7 I can think of that isn't available off the shelf for the C4 is a taper turning attachment.

I think it is a serious contender if you want a new lathe of similar capacity/capability to a Myford.

Neil

P.S. for the record, although Ketan and I had discussed the need for a beginner's series before it was seeing me drooling all over the C4 in Arc's showroom that started him thinking of sponsoring the series.

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

OK Neil,

I bow to your knowledge of C4s. I am not too convinced that a C4 has all the available kit. Raising block for the saddle, Myford style dividing kit for example? As for the M2 taper limitation, I have never suffered any problems here, a drawbar fixes any doubts in this area. What does the C4 have as a taper?

Despite my niggling doubts, the C4 sounds a good deal and I would probably buy one if I could not find a decent Myford. The fact that it is sold by Arc is a real plus. They are just about tops when it comes to dealers!

Andrew.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

To be honest, i count things like raising blocks, dividing attachments and vertical slides as 'generic' items where you can generally find something that will fit or can be made to fit with limited effort. The t-slotted cross and top slides of the C4 give it extra flexibility, a point in common with the Myfords.

It has an MT3 spindle, so no bigger than a mini-lathe, I think you would struggle to fit an MT4 one in the existing bearings. It does come with a 4" chuck as standard.

Neil

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

Posted by mark smith 20 on 19/10/2017 16:05:21:

I`m a bit biased towards old machinery ,i had a chester conquest but never really used it much and was basically a total novice .Then bought a southbend around 5 years ago for £250 from the mid 1960`s , very good condition with slight wear on the v bed.

I renovated it and my interest in lathes really peaked whilst totally dismantling it and painting it . You learn an awful lot about how machinery works when you do this. It came with two vertical slides, i sold the myford swivelling one for over £100. It has both rests and the telescopic type which can sell for quite alot . Also came with quite a bit of tooling and an emco quick change toolpost. The four jaw pratt burnerd chuck was unused just covered in gunk.

I just find old machinery much more interesting and more solidly built .

Edited By mark smith 20 on 19/10/2017 16:07:00

Very very nice SB resto.

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

When I was initially looking for metalworking capabilty at home (some 25 years ago), my first thoughts were to go for one of the Chester lathe mill combination machines that were advertised in the motorcycle magazines. Seeing one in the flesh at a classic bike show was a bit of an eye-opener – there was so much play in the various moving parts it felt worn out straight from the crate ! At the time, this was pretty well the only mainland Chinese machine available for the hobby market, with the other affordable (relatively !) small machines being Taiwanese or East German. My thoughts changed to a CT918 lathe – basically an Emco Compact 8 & still available until recently from Chester & Warco. – and the saving began.

My father had bought a Boxford CUD from one of his customers – he didn't particularly want a lathe, but the seller wanted rid of it and the pillar drill Dad really wanted in one transaction.. After it bit him (thou shalt not start the spindle with the chuck key still in the chuck …) it got no further use. When he passed away, I bought the lathe from my brother (who continued to run my father's business for a while & the machine was a company asset.).for a nominal amount.

A mid-'60s ex-school CUD that had ended up in a clothing manufacturer making press stud insertion dies, it was not in bad condition, but had been greased through all the oiling points. So it was completely stripped, cleaned, repainted & rebuilt. Over the course of a couple of years, I managed to get most of the missing change gears, a direct mount 6" 4 jaw chcuk, faceplate, QC toolpost, a boring table (the lathe was pre-tee slot cross slide) & a travelling steady – never did manage to find a fixed steady. This was pre-Ebay, so the bits came from dealers, Auttjumbles & ME exhibitions. It worked mostly quite well & was accurate, but the under drive was a pain. As the final drive belt has to pass through the swarf tray, it has to be a link type belt. The original that Boxfords used was of a canvas-type material & that worked OK-ish, but was in poor condition. The new types are made from a plastic material & slipped badly under load depite being bow-string tight.

Skip forward a couple of years & I was on-site at a machine tool dealer fixing a machine that the company I worked for at at the time had retrofitted a replacement control to. They had a pretty clean, mid-'60s ex-school Myford Super 7 – direct mount 3 & 4 jaw chucks, faceplate, catchplate, taper turning attachment & 3 sets of change gears (there must have been 2 more lathes somewhere else gearless !). My milling machine fund was depleted to the tune of £825 & it came home with me a couple of days later. My thinking at the time was that I would get it cleaned up & use it, determine whether I prefered the Boxford or the Myford & sell the looser. The Boxford went. For what I wanted to do (and still do for that matter), the Myford was nicer & more convenient to use (speed range, ease of speed setting & the spindle clutch particluarly). Selling the Boxford & accessories raised far more than the Myford cost, so the milling machine fund was reinstated.

I found a fixed steady at an Autojumble a fortnight later (never did find a Boxford one) & a couple of years later bought another (poor condition & damaged) Super 7 B of similar vintage to get the feed gearbox. The gearbox was swapped to my lathe, parts that were beyond redemption on the "scrapper" were purchased new direct from Myford & fitted to my machine, with my good-but-slightly-worn bits intended to go into the other. A friend wanted this machine after I had done it up, but he died suddenly before I finished it & I lost interest after that. It went as parts on Ebay, raising more than it & the new parts had cost – effectively a free feedbox , leadscrews & nuts on my machine.

Used machines, as has been said, are a lottery & the quality of the Chinese competion has come on leaps & bounds since I looked at the Chester Multi-purpose machine 25 years or more ago (and shuddered !). The newest "original style" Boxford will be 30 + years old now & they were not made in the quantities that the Myford 7 Series machines were, so availability is not as good. Finding accessories at a reasonable price (or just finding them period) was a chore over 20 years ago & doesn't seem to have got better. Find a nice, fully equipped machine & it may be a better buy than a Myford or a new Warco etc., but if I were to start out again I would probably go the new route. Had I bought the new 918 I intended to had fate not intervened, I would most likely have made more "stuff" and spent less time rebuilding !

Nigel B

[Anonymous]

Posted by Andrew Tinsley on 20/10/2017 11:58:01:

Wow! This has degenerated into a bit of a mess.

It's inevitable, all threads of this nature end the same way. All they do is confuse the OP and present entrenched positions. Personally I'd make a 'standard' one a sticky and ban the rest.

As an aside there seems to be a peculiar view that secondhand machinery means hours rebuilding and no parts being made. Some people must have bought real pigs in a poke; most of my secondhand machines were put to work straight away, no faffing around.

Andrew

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 20/10/2017 20:21:54:

Posted by Andrew Tinsley on 20/10/2017 11:58:01:

Wow! This has degenerated into a bit of a mess.

It's inevitable, all threads of this nature end the same way. All they do is confuse the OP and present entrenched positions. Personally I'd make a 'standard' one a sticky and ban the rest.

As an aside there seems to be a peculiar view that secondhand machinery means hours rebuilding and no parts being made. Some people must have bought real pigs in a poke; most of my secondhand machines were put to work straight away, no faffing around.

Andrew

Betcha didn't buy them off eBay

[Anonymous]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 20/10/2017 20:40:08:

Betcha didn't buy them off eBay

Oh so wrong!

My cylindrical grinder, power guillotine, box and pan folder and many Pultra parts came via Ebay. As did a number of the large accessories for the other machine tools such as a capstan unit, hydraulic copy unit, vertical head for the horizontal mill, and right-angle and Quillmaster heads for the Bridgeport. Many other machine accessories such as box cubes and some angle plates, including tilting, came from Ebay

The vast majority of my measuring equipment, hundreds of taps and dies and die chasers, plus most of my larger milling cutters were also from Ebay.

Only this week I bought a brand new 2" diameter Clarkson rippa mill for £10, plus P&P.

Of course the majority of my items were bought many years ago when Ebay was a lot less commercialised, there were almost no far eastern sellers, and many sellers were private rather than business.

There are still bargains to be had, but you have to look harder, and be patient.

Andrew

[Michael BriggsParticipant @michaelbriggs82422]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 20/10/2017 21:47:

There are still bargains to be had, but you have to look harder, and be patient.

Andrew

I have had many real bargains from Ebay including my Myford, Senior mill and most of my tooling. Ten years ago it was easy, today is a different story.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

My first machine was a second (at least) hand Myford ML7. Eventually I bought fixed and travelling steadies, and upgraded to micrometer dials, 4 way Toolpost and a long cross slide; making a rear toolpost. A new countershaft and bushes were eventually fitted. A Rodney Milling Attachment was added to the machining capability.

So it was not a "rebuild" project but a useable machine. And I did a lot of work on it, and gained much pleasure from it.

The closest to a problem was when swarf found its way into the centrifugal switch in the motor. Lots of sparks and smoke mid afternoon on New Years Eve! A local company fixed it before tea time, when I made a cover for the motor.

The killer was the 2MT bore spindle, which meant that almost everything had to be cut down to about 6 inches long to be machined, unless turned between centres. This resulted in a lot of dog ends that had once been chucking pieces. WASTEFUL!

It went to a new home and was replaced by a larger, heavier, and more rigid, Far Eastern machine, which has, so far, done everything asked of it in the last 14 years. It has had a few very minor mods in that time, but nothing complicated.

That's my experience. Someone once told me "You can do small work on a big machine, but not the other way round" So buy the largest machine, within reason, space and budget, that you can. Not that I am suggesting making watches with a 21 inch Dean Smith and Grace!

Howard

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