New chinese lathe or old Myford lathe

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

Bear in mind that a second hand lathe may come with many attachments which will be VERY expensive for your Chinese lathe. For me, forget the hype of the Myford and go for the Boxford. Also think about what you intend to use the lathe for. If it is for run of the mill stuff, you can tolerate a bit of wear and develop your operator skills. If you need high precision all the time, then you may have to think Hardinge tool room lathes and the like.
BobH

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 18/10/2017 20:18:38:

Posted by Stuart Riddell on 18/10/2017 18:57:42:

What is the concensus between choosing either a shiny new Chinese lathe, whether it be Warco, Toolco, Chester, Amadeal or an old Myford lathe

Armchair – check

Popcorn – check

Beer – check

Let battle commence!

Andrew

Edited By Andrew Johnston on 18/10/2017 20:19:02

You drink beer with popcorn????

My 2 Baht's worth;

Harrison L5/140

Colchester Student/Bantam

Boxford

S&B 1024

Kerry

All the above have a small footprint, but are a helluva better lathe than a Myford. Chinese – won't/can't comment…

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

Posted by Hopper on 19/10/2017 05:11:08:

Yes, I think Super 7 prices have gone off the scale, compared with ML7s, and I can't see that they are so superior as to be worth the extra premium.

In fact, from my experience, the Hercus (Aussie South Bend clone) is a far better made machine than teh Myfords and sell for much less money than a Super 7. The UK equivalent would be the Boxford. Certainly worth a look. The inverted V beds on them certainly seem to wear better than the swarf-prone flat bed Myfords for starters. And the overall machine is slightly larger but much more robustly built, in the American tradition. (Think Cadillac Eldorado vs Morris Oxford, or Harley Davidson vs Royal Enfield). Not sure about the Boxford, but the Hercus/South Bend construction is all cast iron, not that cheapo Mazak zinc-aluminium pot metal that much of the Myford is pumped out in. Mazak would never have stood up to the Yanks. They expect stuff to be tough.

"like" button pressed. +1.

Lotta votes for Boxford on here….…

Me? Biased? Nay….

[john carruthersParticipant @johncarruthers46255]

I've had old and new machines. The old ones I spent more time fixing than using. The new ones are a joy.
Any problem (within reason) just pick up the phone for support, or to order spares and tooling.
One trivial problem with an SC3 was sorted by the dealer within 24 hours – gratis.
Old (insert British company of choice) are nice to look at, but like vintage cars often only work 2 weekends in June.
For serious collectors only really.
You can buy several Chinese lathes for the price of a good condition Myford, and you don't have to sell a kidney for the accessories. The money saved can go toward materials instead.

[Chris Evans 6Participant @chrisevans6]

I had an old 1942 vintage war finish "South Bend Heavy 10" for over 45 years. It cost me a fiver from the place I served my time at. It coped with most small things but any bigger stuff or things requiring more accuracy I took into where I was working at the time. Come the time to retire and the need for a bigger/better machine I spent about a year looking at various Colchester, Harison etc. The truth is I never found one in good enough order to part with money. I did find an ex London Transport training school Colchester Student in nice condition but it came with no tooling which had been pilfered between the dealer buying it and getting it to his unit in the Midlands. I agreed to buy the machine at £4250 only to get a phone call from the dealer next day saying he had underpriced it and wanted over £5000. I ended up buying a Taiwanese 14"x40" used lathe nicely tooled with DRO quick change toolpost, steadies etc for £1000. It has the 40mm spindle bore I needed and with a bit of work has proved to be a good machine.

Tread very carefully looking for old ex industry lathes all I found was worn out junk but yes good ones are out there, be prepared to travel

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Hopper on 19/10/2017 05:11:08:

 

…

construction is all cast iron, not that cheapo Mazak zinc-aluminium pot metal that much of the Myford is pumped out in. Mazak would never have stood up to the Yanks. They expect stuff to be tough.

Er, but it was the Yanks who invented it! They called it Zamak and it was widely used in the US. One example being the Atlas Lathe that inspired Myford. By the time Zamac was relicensed for manufacture in the UK, it was known that impure Zinc causes the alloy to rot. Mazak was made with a purer form of British Zinc and the alloy was much more stable than the original Zamac. Of course, once Zinc impurity was understood to be the problem Zamak in the USA was also improved. That didn't stop cheapskates from making the nasty version though.

But it does raise an interesting question: how long should a lathe be expected to last? I think less than 10 years.

I could argue that Myford's original business model was flawed. In a small market, how can you make a living selling lathes that people rarely replace? In a very real way, Myford owners bankrupted the company they venerate. Although many people want one, very few supported the business by buying new.

I look at my Chinese lathe rather differently. In round numbers it cost £2000. If it only lasts 5 years, that's £8 per week – less than I spend on petrol. I don't expect it to last, and I don't need it to. If it breaks, or I decide I don't like it, I shall replace it.

Quite often you see the advice 'Buy expensive buy once. Buy cheap buy twice'. As advice goes that's naive rather than wrong. It assumes incorrectly that not replacing tools is always a 'good thing'. Actually, there are many reasons why expensive initial investments might be bad strategy: ask any accountant or production manager.

A much better reason for buying 'quality' or older tools is because you enjoy them. Buying expensive to 'save money' isn't respectable unless you've done an investment appraisal.

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 19/10/2017 10:13:41

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

As Professor Joad said "it all depends on….." New Chinese lathes are not all that good and neither are Myfords! They are both built down to a price. I would rather have a Chinese lathe than a clapped out Myford. But if you can find a good Myford at the right price then the Myford wins out. If you are patient and know what you are about, then a good Myford can be had. An ML7 is usually a better buy than a Super 7, as far as value for money goes.

I have Myfords not because I think they are wonderful (they are not!), but because the range of accessories is far better than just about any lathe used by amateurs. Although the accessories are getting expensive too!

My friend has a big Chinese lathe, he had a crash up on the topslide and ruined the gib strip. He wasn't into making his own. It took 5 months to arrive and then had to be scraped in! A Myford is simply buy and fit, or just modify some ground flat stock. Suppliers of Chinese kit do not always have spares in stock and it can take some time to get them!

As ever, it is swings and roundabouts. What do you want a lathe for, Is a question to ask? If you want to produce large items, then a larger Chinese lathe is the answer. If only small items then an ML10 should be on your list. They can be had cheaply. I Paid £500 for an excellent one, on a Myford stand, complete with the usual 3 and 4 jaw chuck, faceplate and dogs. A huge range of HSS cutting tools and a set of dead centre completed the list. I even got the scrap bin. The contents of which would have set me back by a few hundred pounds. Lots of brass rod and aluminium rod and bars, plus a huge range of steel stock of various (marked) grades.

Andrew.

[Senior YatesParticipant @senioryates]

Hi Stuart,

I've had a Drummond great little lathe. An old British made Challenger lathe terrible, a Myford which I couldn't get rid of quick enough. I have just purchased a Boxford TS10.20 in near new condition for £1500 and it is a dream to use the closest hobby machine I've used compared to industrial machines. I cannot recommend Boxford enough far better than the "M" word machines.

Good luck.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 19/10/2017 10:11:42:

Posted by Hopper on 19/10/2017 05:11:08:

…

construction is all cast iron, not that cheapo Mazak zinc-aluminium pot metal that much of the Myford is pumped out in. Mazak would never have stood up to the Yanks. They expect stuff to be tough.

Er, but it was the Yanks who invented it! They called it Zamak and it was widely used in the US. One example being the Atlas Lathe that inspired Myford. …

Interesting. But in the US, the Atlas is regarded as a very second rate machine compared with a South Bend 9".

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by Senior Yates on 19/10/2017 12:50:16:

Hi Stuart,

I have just purchased a Boxford TS10.20 in near new condition for £1500 and it is a dream to use the closest hobby machine I've used compared to industrial machines. I cannot recommend Boxford enough far better than the "M" word machines.

Good luck.

 

I recently picked up a mint hardly used Boxford 330 in 40" bed length for silly money too, just £2,200.

Of the Boxfords, the X10 series lathes (10.20, 10.30, 280, 330 etc) are particularly capable yet undervalued.

And going back to Myford, I too have gone through my share of Myford's (one ML7 and four Super 7's, including a big bore), but to my mind the one that stands out as being the best value for money, and the most capable, is the 254 (coincidentally there is one of these now in my workshop too, and I also picked that up dirt cheap at £1,450).

There are decent secondhand lathes out there at sensible prices, but you have to keep your eyes open and may have to play a waiting game.

 

 

Edited By David Standing 1 on 19/10/2017 13:45:46

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

At the place I bought my Taiwanese BH 13 24 lathe in 1986, I had a choice of three lathes, the one I bought, a Myford Super 7, or a Taiwanese clone of the Myford. My lathe, and the clone cost a little over $NZ 1000, the Myford about $NZ 4500. The clone was not exactly a copy, as it was beefed up, and had a large bore spindle(MT 5, the same as the larger lathe that I bought).

Ian S C

[larry PhelanParticipant @larryphelan54019]

For want of a nail,a shoe was lost

For want of a shoe,a horse was lost

For want of a horse,a rider was lost.

For want of a rider,a battle was lost

AND ALL FOR THE WANT OF A HORSESHOE NAIL !!!

Get your finger out and go buy a machine and start using it [or call back next year ]

[Jon GibbsParticipant @jongibbs59756]

Posted by larry Phelan on 19/10/2017 14:28:21:

Get your finger out and go buy a machine and start using it [or call back next year ]

+1 – At the end of the day it depends how much you can afford and what's available to you when you want it.

I bought an old ML7 but that was just what came my way at the time. I then bought a second hand Taiwanese round column mill.

Neither of them are perfect but then I don't suppose any other machine I could afford would have been perfect either. I might have done better if I'd waited but then again maybe not.

Do I ever wish I hadn't bought them? – No!

Over analysis never achieved anything.

Jon

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I would argue that it's worth doing a bit of tyre kicking first.

How often do we get a new lathe?

Like buying a car there can be some pleasure in the process of looking at the options and some reassurance that you aren't just jumping in the dark is helpful too.

That said, I bought my Cl300M because it was a cheap return at my local Machine Mart. There wasn't anything wrong with it (a few change gears missing, sent FOC) and I've been using it since 1999…

Neil

P.S. now having seen and read about lots and lots of lathes, if I was getting a S/H lathe it would be a Boxford, the right balance of size, quality and affordability – but it would have to come with a full set of change gears & steadies as they are VERY expensive compared to those for imports.

[mark smith 20Participant @marksmith20]

I`m a bit biased towards old machinery ,i had a chester conquest but never really used it much and was basically a total novice .Then bought a southbend around 5 years ago for £250 from the mid 1960`s , very good condition with slight wear on the v bed.

I renovated it and my interest in lathes really peaked whilst totally dismantling it and painting it . You learn an awful lot about how machinery works when you do this. It came with two vertical slides, i sold the myford swivelling one for over £100. It has both rests and the telescopic type which can sell for quite alot . Also came with quite a bit of tooling and an emco quick change toolpost. The four jaw pratt burnerd chuck was unused just covered in gunk.

I just find old machinery much more interesting and more solidly built .

 

Edited By mark smith 20 on 19/10/2017 16:07:00

[I.M. OUTAHEREParticipant @i-m-outahere]

Posted by larry Phelan on 19/10/2017 14:28:21:

For want of a nail,a shoe was lost

For want of a shoe,a horse was lost

For want of a horse,a rider was lost.

For want of a rider,a battle was lost

AND ALL FOR THE WANT OF A HORSESHOE NAIL !!!

Get your finger out and go buy a machine and start using it [or call back next year ]

Hardly good advice for someone buying thier first machine !

[JuddyParticipant @juddy]

For me it split into what your aim is with the hobby whether it is old machinery centred and making the machines the best they can be for their age, or the things you wish to make with them. if its the machinery that drives your interest then buy an old British machine and have the pleasure of working on it and making it usable again. If its the things you wish to make which drives you, such as engines and the like, then buy new and get making.

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

For want of a decent bit of advice a big pile of Chinese junk was bought and hard saved money was totally wasted.

That’s my take on the old proverb.

[Martin of WickParticipant @martinofwick]

Forgive my crust for a first posting, but I would avoid anything badged as a Myford unless you really, really understand what you are getting. The ones that look like a bargain will be in poor condition and the ones that are in good condition are overpriced (ask me how I know).

As the owner of a S7, I would agree there is nothing 'super' about this relic of 1930s technology or the fact the spindle bore will only pass just over 1/2 inch ( which causes significant wastage of material). It is a joy to use (sometimes), but like a vintage motorcycle, you need to drive it carefully for good results.Yes, spare parts are available, at a cost in time and/or money and you can spend more time fettling the ruddy thing than actually making stuff.

A friend has one of the new WM 250 (other sources available) which comes with most of the basic kit included in the price and has a decent 1" headstock bore. To my jaundiced eye, it was an impressively smooth, quiet, fast, swarf generator and generally tolerant of the levels of abuse that I am wont to inflict on a lathe. I felt the bitter stab of lathe envy.

With the grand plus that you can save over the cost of a top notch S/H Myford you would also be able to buy a shed load of whatever tooling you require (that is new tooling, not 50 yr old worn out relics of faded engineering glory).

Due to the fact the pound in your pocket is now worth less than plastic washer from B&Q, the imported equipment is now more expensive than a couple of years ago. But if I was squandering my money again and not wanting to support the heritage industry, I would be getting a modern machine.

Just my biased 5p worth!

[MadMikeParticipant @madmike]

I sold my Myford ML7, a great machine but showing its age, and bought a Myford refurbed 254S that had never been used. A truly great machine. Better than the old style machines and it has a 10 inch capacity, hence the 254 reference. When I wanted a milling machine however I decided that all of the older traditional machines were far too large for my garage so I bought a brand new Seig from ArcEuro. Another great machine from a great company. Oh yes most of my work involves machining stainless and both machine perform magnificently.

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

Let’s just put this idea to bed:-

Buying an “old” British machine is a labour of love and is akin to getting a classic car – you have to nurture it and restore it to get any use from it…

Chinese machines are shiny examples of glittering modernity that work straight out the box…

I bought a second hand Harrison M250 from Quillstar. It came with all the bits and is a quality, professional well made machine tool.

Prior to that I had a Chester model B super. It was horrendous. Never felt right from the outset. Poor finish on everything, sand in the headstock gearbox..could go on.

Edited By Carl Wilson 4 on 19/10/2017 18:19:42

Edited By Carl Wilson 4 on 19/10/2017 18:20:56

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

Just for the sake of fairness I’ve also got a Drummond B type that’s in bits in plastic crates…

[Michael ToppingParticipant @michaeltopping17870]

I think a lot of rubbish is talked about different lathe makes. I started work in 1970 as an apprentice toolmaker and have used most types of lathes. Harding, DSG and a few others were good but the likes of Colchester and Harrison were ropey. Noisy and inaccurate a couple of years old. I would tread very carefully about buying a vintage British lathe unless you want to spend time refurbishing it.

I use a Warco 330 which Is definitely not a Rolls Royce, but it will cut parallel over 6inches to within a thou. Not many Colchesters will do that. For the price I paid I can't fault it. I've only had it about a year but not had a single issue with it and i haven't made any significant alterations to it.

Personally I would never own a Myford, flimsy weak and underpowered.

At the end of the day it is the operator who makes the difference a good turner with get first class results from a mediocre lathe.

Michael

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

The fact that the OP muses on Chinese or Myford implies he wants a bench size lathe, not a whopping great 500KG+ floor stander.

This limits the choice a bit to bench size 10" or less.

Any Chinese might do if you don't want to use it in a shed (damp kills some of the speed controllers) or you don't intend any low speed big cuts, if you do Warco at least do a belt drive one for that. just be aware that overloading this sort of modern stuff tends to let the smoke out and the guarantee doesn't cover miss use. Old 'junk' just slips the belt and lives to fight another day.

Quality wise I have two far east machines, a bench drill from 1990 that clattered like a machine gun fro new when not drilling (the quill is rubbish) & a Combination roller, folder cutter thing with bolts drilled and tapped at odd angles and sort of works as a roller once you pack out all the slack.

British stuff comes in three camps,

'been in a school / education' which it clearly hasn't if you look at the photos or when true it might have been crashed to death, also training lathes are very basic ones and no extra tooling.

refurbished, likely a coat of paint is all the refurb it got and and no extra tooling.

Original paint, only a bit scruffy, no streaks on the bed from the tailstock, might be a good one, might get extra tooling.

To be honest it's probably time to toss a coin as neither route is perfect.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

When I was a boy into short-wave radio there was a lot of highly desirable government surplus about. World War Two was my playground! My hearts desire was either a USA made RCA AR88D:

or a Marconi CR100 (British or Canadian):

You won't be surprised to hear that the sexy American AR88D was much more expensive second-hand than the plug ugly British receiver, which everyone agreed was very inferior. With hindsight it turns out that the real world performance of the two receivers was similar. In truth the AR88 looked better than it performed, whilst the CR100 performed better than it looked. The morale of the story is that even cold-hearted techies allow emotion to override their better judgement! That couldn't possibly happen with lathes as well could it?

The CR100 and AR88 weighed as much as an ML7 and were gob-smackingly expensive when new. Well beyond the purse of all but the very rich or a government. Today you can buy a Software Defined Radio for about £150 that outperforms both of them, or connect to an online webSDR for free. The AR88 and CR100 are both fun to play with though despite the fact that they're getting difficult to keep in top condition. You can't get the parts guv!

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 19/10/2017 20:57:09

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