New Chester Craftsman or Colchester Master Mk1.5

[BufferParticipant @buffer]

two weeks ago you were 'not very intent on waiting around for a second hand one to pop up". Well you didn't have to wait long. You also wont need a crane now to get it on a stand.

Good luck with it, I'm sure you will love it.

[RooossoneParticipant @rooossone]

Posted by Buffer on 13/06/2023 12:31:56:

two weeks ago you were 'not very intent on waiting around for a second hand one to pop up". Well you didn't have to wait long. You also wont need a crane now to get it on a stand.

Good luck with it, I'm sure you will love it.

I know right!!! it came out of nowhere!

The fact I don't have to worry about getting it on to a stand was a big factor in choosing the Colchester. that and the fact everybody speaks VERY highly of them.

Some other friends said I would be insane to choose an import over the Colchester based on it's visual condition.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Hurrah foran Impetrial machine (I'm prejudiced )

You will do well withb the Colchester. A good solid machine.

Enjoy!

Howard

[BufferParticipant @buffer]

I'm not quite sure what techniques you want to learn before fitting a DRO unless you want to learn about constant hassle, being pissed off a lot and doing ridiculous counting in your head and probably spoiling some parts. A myford has the luxury of a graduated wheel to move the saddle accurately but counting up decimal fractions in 125s soon becomes a tedious ball ache. You might not have the 'benefit' of this on your lathe in which case I can imagine you will be using the topslide to put features onto parts. You will then have hassle of getting this parallel to the bed. If you have a DRO you can learn how to set a topslide in about 1 minute and then forget you know how to. You will likely never have to set your topslide parallel again with a DRO as all your cuts can be finished off with the power feed on the saddle. If you can afford a DRO I would save yourself a lot of bother and just get on and fit one and not look back.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Rooossone on 13/06/2023 12:37:22:

Posted by Buffer on 13/06/2023 12:31:56:.

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Some other friends said I would be insane to choose an import over the Colchester based on it's visual condition.

With friends like that who needs enemies!

The problem is that the visual appearance of a lathe has no relationship to how well it works. In the worst case a complete wreck might have been tarted up with a wire-brush and paint job. Conversely a grubby machine may be in good order throughout.

Never imagine a machine will be as perfect as it was ex-works 50 years ago! I'm a cold-hearted cynic when it comes to old machinery. No matter how well-made it was back in the day, there is no special magic protecting second-hand kit from decades of hard-work, accidents and abuse. Condition depends on a machine's history, not on its brand-name or the optimistic opinions of enthusiasts! If the condition is poor, the machine will have to be fixed, not easy on high-end kit, and spare parts for wonderful lathes like Colchesters are shockingly expensive.

So, before buying I'd start by reading what lathes.co.uk have to say, taking particular note of weaknesses. Then I'd want to see the lathe cutting metal before buying it because nothing reveals faults like putting a machine through its paces. Whilst doing so check for any issues listed by lathes.co.uk Also listen for noisy bearings, a sick motor, grinding, whining, and gears clicking because teeth are missing. Gritty or sloppy controls are bad sign, and make sure they all work, and don't jump out of engagement. The machine might cut a taper as the saddle sinks into a worn bed, or for other nasty reasons. You might get a tingle showing the electrics are iffy, feel a bearing overheating, or smell smoke! Careful inspection will reveal missing parts, bent handles (usually due to toppling whilst being moved), dinged ways, severe wear, cracked castings, slipping clutches, worn half-nuts and other horrors. And of course does the machine do what you need? – RPM, horse power, speed-control, metric/imperial screw-cutting etc. Will it run off your electrics? Can yo move it, is there enough space for it.

Checking the actual lathe that's going to be bought is surely better than trusting the opinions of people who own one with a different history. Riskier still is taking purchasing advice based only on a picture, description, or reputational hearsay – such stuff has to be taken with a lorryload of salt. It's the condition of the machine you buy that matters, not what other people think of the type in general.

Fortunately, this is the golden age of the second-hand professional lathe. In their heyday, most Colchester and similar machines were worked extremely hard. One used for 3-shift piece-rate work would need major refurbishment after about 18 months. After 5 or 6 years it was cheaper to replace such machines than repair them. It was positively unwise to buy second-hand without carefully checking lathes. Good news is that many lathes were saved from that fate by modernisation. Various forms of automatic took over most of the work, with manual lathes used for relatively light ad-hoc jobs. In comparison they often had easy lives, and a lightly used Colchester will last for decades. Light use extended into educational establishments because the job market didn't need lots of manual turners. As a result there's a much higher chance that a surviving manual will be in good order – sold because it was redundant rather than clapped out.

Fingers crossed. If the lathe is in reasonable condition, all is well. Please report back if anything is amiss: as older machines age, faults start to appear, and it's good to know what to look out for.

Owners age too – I'm not quite as fit for work as I was in 1970! Hard to get me moving, frequent stoppages, expensive repairs, and lots of whining…

Dave

[Andy StopfordParticipant @andystopford50521]

I didn't really see the point of a lathe DRO until I had one!

The saddle reading is the most useful for working to a value, the cross slide one I mainly use as a reminder – hit the zero button before winding the cross slide back out of the way for taking a measurement or whatever, then you can wind it back and know you haven't accidentally overshot to the next major graduation.

[Chris Evans 6Participant @chrisevans6]

Opinions differ on a DRO for a lathe, I would not be without one, majority of my work is motorcycle related so entails making lots of nuts and bolts. The DRO gives me speed, face the end of a bar zero the readout move to the required length and set the bed stop.

Colchester lathes, I love them but condition is everything. At work we ran a Triumph 2000 replaced every 5 years when totally worn out. Yes they had a very hard life really shifting metal 80 or more hours a week.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 13/06/2023 20:24:17:

Posted by Rooossone on 13/06/2023 12:37:22:

Posted by Buffer on 13/06/2023 12:31:56:.

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Some other friends said I would be insane to choose an import over the Colchester based on it's visual condition.

After 5 or 6 years it was cheaper to replace such machines than repair them.

Dead right, Dave. My brother-in-law's place of work had a Herbert lathe that needed a new part. The price was insane. They scrapped it.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

After amachine has been worked hard in a production environment, virtually 24 /7 almost every part will be worn, and need refurbishment or repkacement.

The cost of the parts and labour to do nthis, plus the loss of it earning it's keep means that a newer, probably more sophisticated machine represents better value. So they get scrapped.

Buying one without careful mchecking willprovide the owner with a dog, which might be worse than a poorly assembled and adjusted new cheap import.

At, least the latter can be fine tuned to be in better condition, and with a longer accurate life than a worn out ex industry scrapper.

On the other hand, an ex college machine may carry a few bruises, but be comparatively unworm, having run for a dew hours each week taking small cuts at low feeds, rather than an ex industry machine which has been drivem to its limit all day and every day.

A good 'un might be a better buy than a new hobby machine that has been indifferently assembled from parts designed for minimum cost.

You just have to mcareful, and weigh upn the pros and cons.

Refurbishing an old machine can be a very satisfying hobby, given the time and money for all that might be involved.

Whatever is chosen, hopefully, eventually it will do what is required and provide pleasure in using it

Howard

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 13/06/2023 22:08:17:

After amachine has been worked hard in a production environment, virtually 24 /7 almost every part will be worn, and need refurbishment or repkacement.

Whatever is chosen, hopefully, eventually it will do what is required and provide pleasure in using it

Howard

Just to be clear, Howard, the Herbert needed one part only, but still had to be scrapped.

[RooossoneParticipant @rooossone]

Thank you folks for a the heavy dose of sensible! Buying second hand, certainly with items such as a lathe is something I am pretty apprehensive about. That said, I am fairly confident that I am buying a good machine here.

I know the previous owner used it for prototype work and almost entirely in aluminium. He was/is a renowned world champion professional sportsman so the lathe work was very much part time. They've had it for many years (though I am not sure about the life it had before him). The only reason he is selling it is because he is moving country. He had planned on taking it with him but costs proved prohibitive and he is going to buy a lathe again once settled at his destination.

The lathe has been inspected and recommended by a trusted proxy that has much more experience with these things than me and they also said they would have no issues buying it for themself (they already have lathes though). My proxy said, you probably won't get away with micron accurate work but it's certainly good enough for many years of use. He's had is running and is positive about it in general.

The other consideration is that it is just over a third the price of the lathe I was going to buy new. If the worst comes to worst I can sell it on. (I highly doubt I'd lose money on it. I've seen pretty rough ones on Ebay going for more.) That saved money can be re-applied elsewhere in my workshop. Basically I believe this is a risk worth taking without fear of losing much (or any) money on it. I believe the risk is low enough given it's recent history and the current owner is a reluctant seller.

I do totally take on board what you guys say though. I am here to learn from those more experienced and knowledgeable than me. I am educated enough to read between the lines (understanding objective and subjective statements for what they are) though and do my own research and form my own decisions from the information gathered.

Without my trusted proxy's opinion and objective observations, I probably would have still gone with the new Chester import. (That is still an option if this lathe doesn't pan out). I am better off spending less now on my first lathe so I know what to look out for if/when the time comes that I replace it.

Either way this is one big education for me!

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

My proxy said, you probably won't get away with micron accurate work but it's certainly good enough for many years of use. He's had is running and is positive about it in general.

As soon as read that, I thought – who the h*ll expects to work to anywhere near that precision on a manual lathe.

I reckon to the nearest 10 microns is good – even very good – and good enough for most things turned on a lathe.

Anyone comment?

[Chris Evans 6Participant @chrisevans6]

Posted by not done it yet on 14/06/2023 08:08:38:

My proxy said, you probably won't get away with micron accurate work but it's certainly good enough for many years of use. He's had is running and is positive about it in general.

As soon as read that, I thought – who the h*ll expects to work to anywhere near that precision on a manual lathe.

I reckon to the nearest 10 microns is good – even very good – and good enough for most things turned on a lathe.

Anyone comment?

I agree, most of what I do is OK to a couple of thou (nuts/bolts/studs etc) I worked in some very high end toolrooms but we only chased the tenths accuracy when really needed.

[RooossoneParticipant @rooossone]

Posted by Chris Evans 6 on 14/06/2023 09:00:16:

Posted by not done it yet on 14/06/2023 08:08:38:

My proxy said, you probably won't get away with micron accurate work but it's certainly good enough for many years of use. He's had is running and is positive about it in general.

As soon as read that, I thought – who the h*ll expects to work to anywhere near that precision on a manual lathe.

I reckon to the nearest 10 microns is good – even very good – and good enough for most things turned on a lathe.

Anyone comment?

I agree, most of what I do is OK to a couple of thou (nuts/bolts/studs etc) I worked in some very high end toolrooms but we only chased the tenths accuracy when really needed.

I think he was making an extreme point rather than expecting anyone to work to that accuracy. As long as I can work to within a thou or two I think I am happy.

I think I am going to be my biggest hurdle when it comes to accuracy rather than the lathe. certainly in the short to medium term.

[BufferParticipant @buffer]

From what I hear up the club steam engines don't want to be built to tight tolerances everywhere anyway or they will seize up when they get hot. I don't know if that's BS or not but it sounds reasonable to me. If you are new to this I can recommend getting a copy of Spareys The Amateur's Lathe. It's only a few quid and I thought it was a brilliant book to show you what to do and what the lathe can do. I notice your lathe has a T slotted saddle and this is an excellent feature that many lathes don't have. Sparey will show you what you can do with this when you want to bore cylinders for example. It could be the best 5 quid you spend.

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

I have owned round head and square head Colchester Masters over the past 35 years and also a triumph 2000.The roundhead does suffer some faults,there can be wear on the tailstock base ,resulting in the tailstock being low with no easy repair and wear or damage in the 3 morse taper of the barrel,this wear can be a right pain in the backside. I cured mine by by fitting a square head tailstock bought at auction. Providing wear on the bed is reasonable in private use it will not get worse. A 6 or 6 inch lathe is very convenient for workshop where a large range of work is hoped to be undertaken,the spindle bore is a good size, and generally they are a good lathe ,digital read out is not essential ,some peaple cannot do without it,but i have managed without it for donkeys years, The only fault I found with the roundhead is that parting off can be difficult at times,the later square head lathes have crosslides with larger v ways and this make the crosslide stronger and stiffing and makes parting off a lot easier,The spinde having the 00 fitting is far better than any spindle with screw fixing,no jammed chucks.spares are available on the used market though they appear to be getting scarcer. also englsh lathes ten to have more iron in them than importsmore ,weight can be a big advantage, the only advantage of the import,mentioned in the spec is that its got a slotted crosslide which is very useful to the model engineer as it makes cylinders etc easy to mount for boring.I would not swap my master 2500 for any import. The gap bed piece is secured by 4 skt head cap screws and if care is taken then it goes back in position ok removal of the gap pieces gives just over 4 inches between faceplate and bed,the 18 inch faceplate is very usefull and so is a fixed steady,the travelling steady is rarely used.Watch out when getting spares ,the master 2500 has a wider bed than the early square heads and some items are not interchangeable,

[Andy StopfordParticipant @andystopford50521]

One thing to be careful of, after reading all the (entirely justified) warnings above about old lathes, is assuming that there is some fault with the machine if it doesn't do what you're expecting. Not turning parallel is probably number one for this. It may be that the bed is worn, but it may also be lack of experience on the operator's part. I certainly spent much time fooling around making test bars and the like before realising the machine was fine, it was me not appreciating how the workpiece can deflect under load, etc.

So, read books (I'd second getting Sparey), and also check out some of the stuff on YouTube – there is of course much nonsense there, but also genuinely useful advice from real experts. Joe Pie's channel is particularly good.

[RooossoneParticipant @rooossone]

Posted by Andy Stopford on 14/06/2023 19:42:27:

One thing to be careful of, after reading all the (entirely justified) warnings above about old lathes, is assuming that there is some fault with the machine if it doesn't do what you're expecting. Not turning parallel is probably number one for this. It may be that the bed is worn, but it may also be lack of experience on the operator's part. I certainly spent much time fooling around making test bars and the like before realising the machine was fine, it was me not appreciating how the workpiece can deflect under load, etc.

So, read books (I'd second getting Sparey), and also check out some of the stuff on YouTube – there is of course much nonsense there, but also genuinely useful advice from real experts. Joe Pie's channel is particularly good.

I 100% totally agree with you, the issues are more than likely going to lay with me rather than the lathe or tooling.

I will have a look in to the Sparey book and will likely get hold of a copy. I consume a very large amount of Youtube machining content so I do feel somewhat prepared for what lies ahead. That said I would love some in person guidance, there is only so much I can pick up from books and videos.

I have not been able to find any local part time or evening courses (they are all full time or apprenticeships in the Bristol area) and I have only asked The Bristol and machinists Reddits if there is anybody local that could offer tuition/mentoring (nothing came of that). I may well make a separate thread on ME asking if there are any local mentors available and willing. I've got lots of small projects lined up to cut my teeth on so I can learn that way but as they say;

Smart people learn from their mistakes, even smarter people learn from other people's mistakes.

That is a phrase I live by. I am not afraid to ask questions and seek answers before I go and do something. I don't like operating blind without knowing. There is always somebody before me that has done what I am/will be trying to do.

Edited By Rooossone on 15/06/2023 10:42:38

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Rooossone, have you considered this book? Lathework for beginner's much more up to date than Sparey's one.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 15/06/2023 12:35:34

[RobinParticipant @robin]

Why does the Chester Craftsman not list a faceplate in the accessories?

When I bought my Crusader deluxe I had to ask for the faceplate. Didn't cost any more, but I had to ask.

I did wonder if they omitted it because the spring covers on the leadscrew stopped the saddle over 4" shy of the end of the bed. The faceplate wasn't exactly reachable until I removed said spring thing.

All jolly good fun

[RooossoneParticipant @rooossone]

Posted by Robin on 16/06/2023 11:36:10:

Why does the Chester Craftsman not list a faceplate in the accessories?

When I bought my Crusader deluxe I had to ask for the faceplate. Didn't cost any more, but I had to ask.

I did wonder if they omitted it because the spring covers on the leadscrew stopped the saddle over 4" shy of the end of the bed. The faceplate wasn't exactly reachable until I removed said spring thing.

All jolly good fun

I have no answers for you I'm afraid.

And Nicholas, I will consider getting that book though it is somewhat more expensive.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Although Spary's book was good and still is in parts as Nick says it is rather dated in others. For example you won't find mention of insert tools which will come into their own on a large project like a 4" TE and as for finding Whale oil, there are more modern alternatives now.

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

Regarding Sparey being dated, as Jason said, whale oil would be somewhat scarce these days, but then, I suppose corsets might be too !

Just saying .

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Sparey is good, but was heavilo biased towards the Myford ML7 which was almost THE model engineer's lathe at the time.

Stan Bray and Harold Hall wrote their books later, and were more likely to cover other machines. (Stan used a ML7 but also used a little TOYO )

David Clark, Dave Fenner and Neril Wyatt have all written books specific to the mini lathe.

The basic principles are the same for all lathes, but it is the detail that varies.

Howard

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Posted by Rooossone on 16/06/2023 12:20:30:

Posted by Robin on 16/06/2023 11:36:10:

Why does the Chester Craftsman

All jolly good fun

I have no answers for you I'm afraid.

And Nicholas, I will consider getting that book though it is somewhat more expensive.

Hi Rooossone, I understand there is a difference in the price. I have a second hand 1993 edition, which was bought from A.J. Reeves & Co. in 1993, how do I know this, because the person that bought it, left the till receipt and the Visa slip, inside the pages, and it cost £8.50. Reeves 2000 sell the 1998 edited edition with just the same amount of pages, but a slightly smaller and thinner book for £8.95, so I guess the value of it has gone down in real terms. I think I paid about £3.00 for mine about five years, which is still in near mint condition. As JasonB has said, there's nothing about index tooling in it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not chucking the baby out with the bath water, as there is still a lot of good info in it, but things do move on, and of course the choice is yours.

Regards Nick.

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