New Boring Head received-Questions about boring bar indexed-?

[Chris MateParticipant @chrismate31303]

Hi, I received the new Vertex Boring head with MT4.

It measures 30mm wide by 65mm height, so I assume its called a 50mm boring head.
It claims to bore out between 10 to 100mm wide hole.

Question about a very long Boring Bar indexable with insert received as standard with this head according to the main impoerter of Vertex in the country I live, more me it seems very long from my Lathe experience with boring bars and stick out which I can control with lathe but not here.

The bar…..:It seems sturdy and heavy fo its size, feels good.
-Bar=S12M – SDUCR07
–Bar=It is 150mm long x 12mm
–Bar=It sticks in 30mm into boring head, so a long stickout.

InsertSmall)=The price represents good quality
—Insert=DCM T070204

What is your opinion/experience of this looking at above, before I test/do anything with it-?

The saleman told me this is standard issue with boring head, they have no shorter boring bars to issue.

Thankyou

[Chris MateParticipant @chrismate31303]

Very long boring bar

[Anonymous]

The salesman is a clueless idiot.

A stickout of 120mm is far too much. A rule of thumb is 5 times the boring bar diameter, so 60mm in this case. My experience of using inserts, even with a high end industrial boring head, is that they are very prone to chatter. So much so that I have reverted to HSS toolbits; as in this setup:

The home made boring bar is 7/8" diameter and stickout is about 6", so more than the rule of five times. I initially used an insert boring bar, but it chattered badly, so I quickly reverted to HSS.

My 50mm Soba boring head came with several HSS boring bars, all about 75mm overall, so around 40mm stickout. After grinding they sort of worked but at least they didn't chatter.

Andrew

[Chris MateParticipant @chrismate31303]

I do have a set of brazed carbide boring bars but they have fully round 12mm shanks going in boring head, the longest one is about half this ones lenght. Maybe just for fun I can try it at 150mm, if complete fail, I shorten it to longest of brazed ones lenght, try it again etc.

If you perhaps know these, say I want to mill a flat on their shanks so the clampng screws dont marr up the surfaces and then you battle to get it out of head I have seen on searches, how should I align it best before milling flats-?

Thanks for info..

Edited By Chris Mate on 29/07/2023 12:58:30

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I've not found the screws on my Soba boring head mark the shanks of Brazed tip, HSS or Indexable tools so have not bothered to add any flats. Would rather have the option to tweak their position in the boring head when needed.

Looks like they just sent you a lathe boring tool, the ones for boring heads tend to be a bit different

Boring heads tend to be sized by the diameter of the head so you might have a 30mm head or 60mm head depending what you call width and height. Neither of which is a standard Vertex size.

Edited By JasonB on 29/07/2023 13:26:56

[Anonymous]

None of my boring bars (home made or commercial) have flats. Same as Jason, none have ever been marked. The grub screws should be flat and smooth on the bearing end. The only exception are the horizontal extension bars on my commercial boring heads, which have flats. That is because they are subject to higher torque than a boring bar. If anyone doesn't know what I mean by extension bars I can post a picture.

Andrew

[DC31kParticipant @dc31k]

Posted by Chris Mate on 29/07/2023 11:20:31:

-Bar=S12M – SDUCR07

The 'M' in the above is the ISO code for the length.

https://www.cutwel.co.uk/blog/learn-the-boring-bar-iso-code-system

If you search for shorter lengths (S12 H, J, K), there are few options, hence cutting it down would seem to be a reasonable way forward.

CTC Tools in Hong Kong have 12mm (metric) alternatives to the 1/2" (imperial) Glanze ones linked to above.

[Chris MateParticipant @chrismate31303]

I refer it to a specialist in the company via sales person to investigate why they sell a Boring Bar set as this, it does not make sense the bar given with it with no other options from them regarding bars with inserts.

I do have 3x shorter boring bars as well with inserts from ISCAR but thats for the lathe, and not necessarly 12mm.

This boring head is clearly marked with proper label as "Vertex" made in Taiwan. I assume it is a "50mm" one then.

Thanks for all the info and takes on this……
I think I will wait for an answer from them, if it" is what it is", I will shorten this boring bar till I like the lenght with test cuts. If it seems to cut poorly, I will have maybe some other options away from this, and send them the bar back in pieces. Just found it strange from Vertex selling a boring head this way. When I asked for a qwote, it was them that offerred the bar with inserts, I was not asking for it, actually I was expecting 3 bars in the set..

Edited By Chris Mate on 29/07/2023 15:44:03

[Anonymous]

Just because it is marked Vertex doesn't mean it was made by them. It would be helpful to know where you are based and who you are buying from.

Andrew

[Chris MateParticipant @chrismate31303]

As far as I know its coming from Taiwan and its a manufacturing company
https://www.vertex.co.com

[DiogenesIIParticipant @diogenesii]

I have a couple of cut-down SCLCR boring bars that I use in the boring head – one is about 85mm long and was cut down to do work up to 50mm thick which is about 90% of boring work I expect to do on the mill, I have another 110mm long because I needed extra reach (75mm) and cutting unwanted 40mm off it noticeably reduced chatter.

I still use both of them in the lathe..

[Pete.Participant @pete-2]

To save time just take a photo with a rule next to it for scale, the vertex catalogue at rotagrip doesn't have a 30mm boring head.

[Chris MateParticipant @chrismate31303]

Posted by DiogenesII on 30/07/2023 03:54:36:

I have a couple of cut-down SCLCR boring bars that I use in the boring head – one is about 85mm long and was cut down to do work up to 50mm thick which is about 90% of boring work I expect to do on the mill, I have another 110mm long because I needed extra reach (75mm) and cutting unwanted 40mm off it noticeably reduced chatter.

I still use both of them in the lathe..

Its a 50mm boring head(Made in Taiwan by Vertex, it is not a 30mm boring head..

-The 12mm x 150mm boring bar goes 30mm deap in the 12mm hole (one of two + one horizontal hole) into the boring head, so there is for this bar 150mm-30mm=120mm stickout.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

For hours of fun … try searching the Vertex online catalogue :

**LINK**

http://www.vertex-tw.com.tw/products/products_search_list.php?Keywords=boring

MichaelG.

[Chris MateParticipant @chrismate31303]

As I understand Vertex is an American & Taiwanese effort to produce quality goods, and if I cannot afford Walter, Kennametal, Iscar which are all rediculously expernsive, my choice would be Vertex over Chinese, I have of all of them, and Vertex is better than Chinese as its availability, but from what I have Walter, Iscar & Kenametal stands out as the best.
I also know that Kenametal parts are manufactured under licence in the country I live in, bought a lefthand boring bar with inserts from the local factory, so where things are manufactured can be tricky to know, however I am sure Vertex is manufacture not where I live, its imported by the company I just dealt with and spread to other companies.

Edited By Chris Mate on 30/07/2023 06:49:01

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

From previous threads on here at least some Vertex items are made in China so you may just have a Chinese boring head made there to a good spec.

[DiogenesIIParticipant @diogenesii]

Posted by Chris Mate on 30/07/2023 06:20:15:

Posted by DiogenesII on 30/07/2023 03:54:36:

I have a couple of cut-down SCLCR boring bars that I use in the boring head – one is about 85mm long and was cut down to do work up to 50mm thick which is about 90% of boring work I expect to do on the mill, I have another 110mm long because I needed extra reach (75mm) and cutting unwanted 40mm off it noticeably reduced chatter.

I still use both of them in the lathe..

Its a 50mm boring head(Made in Taiwan by Vertex, it is not a 30mm boring head..

-The 12mm x 150mm boring bar goes 30mm deap in the 12mm hole (one of two + one horizontal hole) into the boring head, so there is for this bar 150mm-30mm=120mm stickout.

Yes, I think I understood that right – mine is similar, a round body 50mm dia, with same arrangement of 12mm 'sockets' for the tool to sit in that are about 30mm deep.

Both my bars started 150mm long, this is too much stick-out, so I chopped the first one off so that once it is mounted in the head, the tool-tip will just pass through a 50mm workpiece before the head touches the work – like Andrew said in his first post, there is a limit to the depth you can reach with a bar of any given size and the shorter the better, so stick-out of about 4xd is just about do-able if not ideal.

The other bar was needed to reach past a raised feature on an alu. alloy part, so needed a longer shank – it chattered, but sharp ground inserts, lowering the speed, and careful cuts got the job done with an acceptable (-ish) finish.

[Martin Johnson 1Participant @martinjohnson1]

I always seem to be the odd one out, but all my boring head bars now have flats filed in. I got fed up trying to set rake and clearance by eye and finding out it wouldn't cut due to rubbing on the heel. I also had the occasional fight with burrs on the tool shanks. No such problems now.

Martin

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

The inappropriate head/bar combination is probably a reflection of the most popular sales to thousands of small far eastern factories wanting to minimise the boring head cost while getting the depth the design calls for. Persevere with the long bar and reduced quality and you can become a certified machine tool manufacturer.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 30/07/2023 06:30:54:

For hours of fun … try searching the Vertex online catalogue :

**LINK**

http://www.vertex-tw.com.tw/products/products_search_list.php?Keywords=boring

MichaelG.

Judging by the website, it's a miracle Vertex sell anything! So awful I wondered if it was a fake. For a time it seemed Vertex of Taiwan don't make Boring Heads at all. Persisting, they do. Looks like they're either sold as a boxed set, with arbour, accessories and 3 or 4 boring bars, or just as a boring head, where you have to buy an arbour and bars separately.

My guess is Chris bought from a retailer who paired the head with an arbour and bunged in a lathe type boring bar as part of the deal.

A long bar may not be complete madness because they can be mounted vertically to bore deep holes:

And a long boring bar is an asset on a lathe because the end can stick out the back.

I'd either chop it down or buy a shorter bar. Neither of my boring heads came with bars.

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 30/07/2023 14:24:15

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 30/07/2023 14:23:26:

[…]

For a time it seemed Vertex of Taiwan don't make Boring Heads at all. […]

.

That’s odd, Dave

Did my meticulously crafted link not take you directly to the search results ?

MichaelG.

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

I only bought a small boring head for the mills with an R8 arbor and was not too keen on the brazed toolbits that came with it. Recently, I made some indexable tools for the head out of the supply of 1/2" Densimet that we have at the museum. I have found some pictures og one using DCMT 07 and DCGT 07 inserts. The Densimet is ground 1/2" diameter tungsten alloy with a relative density of around 18, the stiffness of carbide, but nothing like as brittle and machinable and can be tapped. I made several lengths and also used some CCMT 06 inserts for the smaller ones. They are much better than the brazed ones. To mill the various angles, the little vise with the multiple movements was invaluble.

[Chris MateParticipant @chrismate31303]

I think what I am going to do with the boring bar for experience, is try it at the lathe at various lenghts starting at the 30mm in with 120mm stickout and work my way down. It may or may not be good in the lathe versus boring head because of way of operation.

Otherwise I setup in mill and go down the lenghts to see at what lenght this bar becomes stable. I saw two places claim this same bar as made from stainless steel, not sure how true that can be.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Chris Mate on 30/07/2023 23:26:57:

I think what I am going to do with the boring bar for experience, is try it at the lathe at various lenghts starting at the 30mm in with 120mm stickout and work my way down. It may or may not be good in the lathe versus boring head because of way of operation.

Otherwise I setup in mill and go down the lenghts to see at what lenght this bar becomes stable. ,,,

My advice – don't bother! What you have is probably no worse than any other bar, and it will be useful in future.

All boring bars start to chatter at some point, but exactly when varies a lot. Not just the length of the bar, much depends on the job, cutting fluid, RPM, depth-of-cut, feed-rate and insert-shape.

As usual cutting tool length should be kept as short as possible. No problem when a long boring bar is held in a lathe tool-post because the unused part sticks harmlessly out the back. Not possible with boring heads which normally work with short boring bars unless a deep or very wide hole is needed. So I think a short boring bar is needed as well.

Annoying a long bar was supplied with the head rather than a short one, but the bar isn't useless.

Dave

[Chris MateParticipant @chrismate31303]

Step-1 Testing the boring bar plus insert in the lathe, now it may not be right test(Not a boring head used), but just for experience.

-Huge fail-A: At 130mm stickout it is cutting horendoesly, its extremely noisy, it vibrates the chips landing on the bar, the cut looks like a corrigated road.
-Huge fail-B: Extended with 55mm stikck out, it still evenly horrendoed as above, I dont have a bar thats worse.

I compared it to an Iscar bar with insert, the Iscar bar cuts smooth and quietly, no problem.
Both set to centre height the same exactly, both inserts ticg in pockets no movement on insert.

So, I am a bit worried about this bar & insert on a lathe. The insert has all clearances.

I dont see it getting better making it shorter for the lathe.

Next step, speak to cmpany, and if its not suppose to work on a lathe, ok, I will cut it off to longest brazed insert bar and set it up in mill and go from there….

[Author]

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