Need a pen to draw the “finest possible” lines?

[Simon Williams 3Participant @simonwilliams3]

Nobody's yet mentioned Graphos, which is a pen body/replaceable nib system using indian ink or equivalent. There are some really really fine tip nibs available.

I fancy it's obsolete, but there are some examples on ebay.

HTH Simon

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Donald MacDonald 1 on 18/04/2022 00:52:39:

…

(And for the record, yes I am using CAD etc etc, but there are times such as marking up card/bookcloth/certain plastics/other materials and/or annotating printouts… including ones that are required to be life size… when one needs an actual pen. And please don't anyone start telling me about Dykcem Steel Blue Layout Fluid, because I am already using that on steel too!)

Have any of you tried the Copic Multiliner SP-0.03mm?
Not cheap for what I think is a fibre tipped pen, but looks tempting. Nibs can be replaced.
**LINK**

Or what about the "Art-n-Fly FineLine Drawing Pens" which have an "Ultra Fine Tip 003" – and claim to draw a "0.15mm" line, which claims to use Archival Japanese Ink, which they claim work well on non-porous surface and "won't feather or bleed through most papers"
**LINK**

As ever, thank you for all your suggestions.

Don

Sigh! Continually changing the requirement as the answers come in is unhelpful. Even if I'd used an Art-n-Fly pen, I've no means of knowing if it will do what Don wants, because Don keeps moving the goalposts. Feels to me as if game changers are being dropped into the thread like bombshells.

Don appears to be looking for the perfect pen, and it doesn't exist. All tools have pros and cons, and the user either has to compromise or buy more than one type: it's why I own several hammers in different shapes and sizes. I don't expect one hammer to do everything!

If the core requirement is drawing fine lines, the best and cheapest way of producing them is with a dipper mapping pen. Unfortunately, to get the best fine line it's necessary to accept the disadvantages of dipping and if that's unacceptable, it's necessary to accept the disadvantages of the alternatives.

More sophisticated pens come with better ink management systems, but it's difficult to match the drawing action of a split nib, which is also easy to keep clean. Ball-point pens work well for many purposes, but the line is inferior to a fountain pen, which is inferior to a dipper. For rough work, I use ball-points, proper letters are written with a fountain pen, or typed and signed with a fountain pen, because it improves my handwriting. Dippers are reserved for map making. I accept the need to match the tool to the job.

Of the drawing pens Rotring are a good compromise, but they have disadvantages, notably the importance of keeping them clean. Wish ultrasonic cleaners had been available in my youth, when I used Rotring pens intermittently, an abuse that guarantees clogging. Despite their virtues, Rotrings like to be used every day, aren't low-maintenance, and can't be used upside down!

My experience of fibre-tips is mostly with the colouring-in type. Fifty years ago the fine ones didn't perform as well as Rotring's: possibly they've improved since, or might be 'good enough' for Don.

I think the only way Don can find out what suits him is to try several alternatives. That way Don discovers for himself what performs best in his particular circumstances. None of them will do exactly what's needed, but it's quite likely one type will get closer than the others. When requirements can't be clearly articulated beforehand, comparing side by side is a good way of exposing what's really important. Only Don can do that.

Dave

[jann westParticipant @jannwest71382]

Memory lane reminds me of a few other things – the rapidographs on drafting film required special edges on their drawing tools (rulers, set squares, etc.) which had a step … essentially so that the ink wouldn't smudge underneath the ruler edge – which occurred if the pen nib was against a flush ruler edge.

Also – really fine/small drawings were typically drawn oversize and reduced in the aforementioned calibrated photocopier.

Source: Family business was drafting patent drawings.

[Donald MacDonald 1Participant @donaldmacdonald1]

@Bill Pudney – Er, to repeat, yes I am already using an excellent CAD system. As before, in the nicest possible way please, confine yourself to my answering my question, not questioning my processes.

My question is about pens. Because I need a pen.

Nope I want to write on my CAD printouts.
> If you are seriously hoping to use some sort of felt pin, look for Unicorns
Depends what you mean by "Rotring". Your views not withstanding, your beloved Rotring clearly do believe in fibre pens. They don't actually call them Unicorns, but they make do 'em.

This is their finest. "0.1mm"

[And TBH, I am still trying to work out whether it lines would be finer than other fibre pens that claim to have "0.05mm" or even "0.03mm" nibs. ]

@Speedy
> Uni Pin Fineliner do a 0.1mm pen
As before, yes, I do have them. And a smaller "0.05mm"version. And as I have said, I am already using their smaller version "0.05m".

@JasonB
> Now you have moved the goalpost from wanting the pens to draw on paper
> and tracing paper to wanting to write on all manner of surfaces,
Incorrect. Writing on other surfaces is a bonus not a requirement.

> This is a quick freehand drawn line on photo copy paper using a 0.1mm Pilot DR pen.
JasonB, when you say "0.1mm"… I am assuming that you mean Pilot's "Drawing Pen 01" (which has a "Tip Size: 0.5mm", and a "Writing Width: 0.28mm", yes? Or do you means their "Drawing Pen 05" which has an actual "Tip Size" of "1.00mm"?

Source: **LINK**
https://drpen.co.uk/products/pilot-drawing-pen?_pos=1&_sid=937715b6f&_ss=r&variant=34775728193

[See how confusing all this is!]

     *     *     *

OK, I don't want to spend too much more time on this. I have now ordered a (reassuringly expensive) fine liner / fibre-tipped pen ("Copic Multiliner SP-0.03mm"  ) which has a "0.03mm" nib. I suspect that they really mean 0.3mm, but time will tell!

Meanwhile here is a photo of my lines drawn by my current pens (on a reasonable quality injet paper which I use to do CAD printout paper – Avery "Papier 90 Art 2563" )

Note that the start of each line (i.e. at the left) I have done, a single pass… and the next few mm is a triple pass which is much darker but is also significantly fatter.

I don't know how obvious this will be from the photo, but my ruler lines are thinner than that of any my pens.

Did I mention that, yes I already use a CAD system?
And that my printer can very get much finer lines when I do my CAD printouts than any of my pens?
And that one of the things that I am wanting to do is annotate my CAD printouts?

[sigh]

OK I'll let you folks know how I get on with the "0.03mm" Copic Multiliner SP when it comes.

Don

 

Edited By Donald MacDonald 1 on 18/04/2022 12:58:23

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Your supposedly 0.05mm Unipin does look a bit of a joke.

… Is that a new one, or “well-used” ?

MichaelG.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, I probably can't measure these lines as good as MichaelG can, but the measurements in brackets are what I achieved and are no smaller, but the uni-pin 0.5 seems to be spot on and the Pilot 05 comes a close second, there are no sizes given for the Pilot Hi-Tecpoint or the uni-ball eye. I measured them with my small digital calipers while viewing with an eye magnifying viewer and with the lines being backlit, the paper is a piece that the company that I worked for, used in their drawing office, which looks like tracing paper that all the master drawings were done on. All the pens have had use, but the Pilot Hi-Tecpoint and the uni-ball eye didn't like the paper.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 18/04/2022 13:30:13

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Don, it was the "01" pilot DR. that I use for that photo

I see Nick has the Triplus pens, I find these the easiest for general writing and freehand use but they are a bit thicker.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi JasonB, yes they are nice pens to use, but alas my handwriting doesn't portray the best properties of any pens, pencils or even chalk.

Regards Nick.

[Donald MacDonald 1Participant @donaldmacdonald1]

@Jann west

> the rapidographs on drafting film required special edges on their
> drawing tools (rulers, set squares, etc.) which had a step …
> essentially so that the ink wouldn't smudge underneath the ruler edge
> – which occurred if the pen nib was against a flush ruler edge.
Excellent point.
Another reason to avoid Rotring Isograph/Rapidographs.
And no, I am not about to buy some more rulers & set squares just for my new pens!
[Although if I end up with a Rotring/Rapidograph buying I might put a layer of adhesive tape on the rear, 1mm away from the drawing surface, in order to lift the tool off the paper.]

@Dave

I don't want to get into a war of words. However nor do I wish to ignore you.

In the nicest possible way, I would simply encourage you to carefully re-read my original question. Because TBH, I don't believe that I have changed to the goalpost by a single inch. There in my original question, I carefully laid out my core priorities, which have not changed.

There I specified what papers I intend to use. So why is anyone telling me to use different types of paper?

There I say that top of my list of important factors was "low maintenance". So why is anyone telling me to use dip pens or (old fashioned Isograph/Rapidograph) Rotring pens?

But IF no one can suggest anything that seem able to reliably draws a finer line than the "0.05mm" Uni-Pin pens that I already use, then yes I shall simply buy a Rotring Isograph or Rapidograph (what we used to call "indian ink" pens). But I know that they like to be used every day and that they are hatefully high maintenance if they are NOT used every day.

Did I mention that the purpose of my question was to try to avoid high maintenance pens?

But technology rumbles on and it is notable that in the last decade or two that manufacturers have increasing move towards fibre tipped pens (AKA "fineliners&quot, and even the likes of Rotring & Staedtler have their own versions.

@Michale G
> Your supposedly 0.05mm Unipin does look a bit of a joke…
> Is that a new one, or “well-used” ?
Good question. Well, I have three of them. They are about 6 months old but the one I drew with is barely used. It is possible that they may all be fractionally dry on ink, I'm not sure.

UPDATE:

Feather-weight use of Fineliners
What I have noticed that if one doesn't mind a line being a bit faint, it is possible to get a very much finer line with a Fineliner pen if when it is absolutely new if you only ever use the lightest possible weight (i.e. barely more than the weight of the pen itself!)

More later after I have tested my new pens…

Don

[Dave SParticipant @daves59043]

I suspect the increasing use of fibre tips is related to the cost of manufacture.
The use of any pen for precision drawing is obsolete.

Technically you should always use a raised edge for any “wet” lining.
Properly used Rotring pens are less prone to smudge that dip pens, and no more prone that fibre tips.

One thing with Isographs and other tube nib pens is that you must hold the pen consistently, and preferably at right angles to the page for the line to be correct. Fibre tips flex, but “tube” pens don’t

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