Need a CNC mill and lathe

[mike mcdermidParticipant @mikemcdermid41977]

Posted by Dean Jeffery 1 on 16/06/2014 11:10:40:

Mike

If this was going to be on a massive production run then no problem, but this is for a wanna be DYIer. IE no point machining parts in a few mins spending more than i can afford on software, tools and machines if the parts only sell on a small scale.

Blowlamp

Cheers for the cad/cam info

I have looked at both lathes and mills from that site, been a hobby engineering site what machines do you guys use CNC related that would fit my needs.

Neil

Yes this is an option but finding a machine that can be stripped easy IE 2/3 main parts.

Cheers

Also found a denford cyclone delivered for 4k, but would need a convertor and depends on the quote i get back from the crane crew.

Edited By Dean Jeffery 1 on 16/06/2014 11:12:51

Edited By Dean Jeffery 1 on 16/06/2014 11:19:21

Dean i think you missed what i was getting at your going to spend 8k when for less than 1k you could have a company make you enough hobby parts to keep you spinning…..sounds more like doing it for the sake of it

There is also free software like HSM express and delcam express(the package we would have bought for solidworks if their sales guys could have been arsed to convert a sales enquiry into a 10 k sale) HSM express is so simple to use you can be cutting within 15 minutes and is very very intuitive but that simplicity hides most of the complex stuff done automatically in the background

[Dean Jeffery 1Participant @deanjeffery1]

Again cheers for all your inputs, I will be sending another quote out next week. Phoned a bloke I use to work with but the guy who does quotes is away till next week.

These quotes I have been getting at the mo are just for turning, I just want everything in place should this be successful and money can be made.

Really comes down to testing of the product from the states, although I can't see it failing but they may not want to pay.
The alloy ones cost £40 with cheap bearings, the cheap bearings are £3 each and take 2.

It's not a matter of doing it for the sake of doing it, I've just never made anything to sell before. And thought it would also be better working for myself so to speak.

My work contracts small work out even if it can be machined I house, because they still charge them self over £100 and hr.
If these can be made with another company, then I see what you saying I should get a large amount for the cost of machines, tooling, software.

Cheers

 

Edited By Dean Jeffery 1 on 16/06/2014 16:24:27

[Dean Jeffery 1Participant @deanjeffery1]

Well thought i'd update this thread, quotes well sent out 5-6 request and only 2 replies.

1 said need to have VAT number before a quote can be given, also been looking at bigger machines than the hobby level. So asked for a quote to crane a machine over the house, got a reply but wanted full address. After i sent full address nothing.

So just to give me something to do and research more, what is the biggest lathe and mill i could use on single phase power.

Or what machines what fit in this power range

Cheers

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Dean Jeffery 1 on 29/06/2014 08:07:53:

So just to give me something to do and research more, what is the biggest lathe and mill i could use on single phase power.

.

Dean,

I would strongly recommend that you use a three phase motor on the machine. … These can be driven from a Static Inverter [i.e. all electronic, no moving parts] which produces three phase from the single phase mains.

You wll get much smoother running, and more "efficient" power delivery. [note that a 1hp single phase motor is quite likely to blow a 13A fuse when starting, but a three phase on an inverter should be fine]

You also get speed control … so, what's not to like?

MichaelG.

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

Increasing the machine size brings you into the realms of the likes of this **LINK** . 7.5Hp = 6.5Kw

I think the question should be what power rather than largest single phase machine as you can run 3 phase machines from a single phase supply. I would think the limitation would be on incoming supply probably around the 7/10Kw (7 to 13hp) mark but will need at least a 10mm supply cable. It does depend on your incoming supply a quick check of the main fuse should give a clue, 60amp or 100amp are common.

[Les Jones 1Participant @lesjones1]

Dean,
Have you considered renting a small industrial unit. This would solve the access problem and it would probably have a three phase supply. I would think the cost of hiring a crane to lift machines over your house would pay the rent on an industrial unit for quite a time. As you seem to want to set up a business I think you would need a wider range of products or take in subcontract work.

Les.

[Dean Jeffery 1Participant @deanjeffery1]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 29/06/2014 08:26:34:

Posted by Dean Jeffery 1 on 29/06/2014 08:07:53:

So just to give me something to do and research more, what is the biggest lathe and mill i could use on single phase power.

.

Dean,

I would strongly recommend that you use a three phase motor on the machine. … These can be driven from a Static Inverter [i.e. all electronic, no moving parts] which produces three phase from the single phase mains.

You wll get much smoother running, and more "efficient" power delivery. [note that a 1hp single phase motor is quite likely to blow a 13A fuse when starting, but a three phase on an inverter should be fine]

You also get speed control … so, what's not to like?

MichaelG.

Cheers

[Dean Jeffery 1Participant @deanjeffery1]

Posted by Bob Brown 1 on 29/06/2014 08:36:15:

Increasing the machine size brings you into the realms of the likes of this **LINK** . 7.5Hp = 6.5Kw

I think the question should be what power rather than largest single phase machine as you can run 3 phase machines from a single phase supply. I would think the limitation would be on incoming supply probably around the 7/10Kw (7 to 13hp) mark but will need at least a 10mm supply cable. It does depend on your incoming supply a quick check of the main fuse should give a clue, 60amp or 100amp are common.

Just checked and mine is 80amp i was looking at this but the seller failed to answer my questions **LINK**

[Dean Jeffery 1Participant @deanjeffery1]

Posted by Les Jones 1 on 29/06/2014 08:45:08:

Dean,
Have you considered renting a small industrial unit. This would solve the access problem and it would probably have a three phase supply. I would think the cost of hiring a crane to lift machines over your house would pay the rent on an industrial unit for quite a time. As you seem to want to set up a business I think you would need a wider range of products or take in subcontract work.

Les.

Les i did look into renting a unit out a few yrs ago, the cost without supply was £165 a week. But yes pretty much want to at least make good money like a second income, something i want to try and thought doing this from home would save money on a unit. If it was successful then move into a unit would be the next level.

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

If you have room at home then work from home as the cost savings are considerable.

80amps should give you enough to run 10hp on a dedicated supply, around 45amps.

The sums are worth doing

roughly, item sale price less material, electricity, tooling, labour etc

If you add in cost of machine to do the job that has to be amortized over the numbers sold.

Edited By Bob Brown 1 on 29/06/2014 10:46:59

[Dean Jeffery 1Participant @deanjeffery1]

Cheers bob

10HP so cnc lathe and mill would be 5 each max, is that 10hp max fot convertor.

Cheers

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

One point to take into consideration is that on most small industrial machines which are built 3 phase, only 3 phase is needed for the spindle motor.

Usually all the CNC gubbings, to give it it's correct technical title runs off something like single phase or 110v so simply sticking a VFD onto the spindle motor will drop the whole lot onto single phase.

Also if these are only small parts you could even drop the HP down to enable single phase running economically.

My biggish Beaver mill, 7 HP and 2 1/2 tonnes could easily be down rated to single phase if needed. The 7HP is overkill but as I have 3 phase it pays to leave it as is.

The older Bridgeport BOSS 1's to 5's all run on steppers and a 3 phase spindle but only 3 HP max.

These can usually be picked up cheaply with a broken controller as the BOSS controller was the pits in the 1980's and many have stood in corners since then, broken but with good mechanicals.

This one **LINK**

Made £995 less VAT and was all running. Less price in fact than an X3 crap conversion with no ballscrews that was sold at the same time.

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

"10HP so cnc lathe and mill would be 5 each max, is that 10hp max fot convertor"

That would depend, 5hp if you intend to run both at the same time.

Phase converters can go to over 16Kw or 20HP but you are limited by the incoming supply as 20hp will probably pull too much for the main fuse to handle on start up even with a converter.

Most 3 phase machines I have seen only have a 3 phase supply + neutral, as any single phase is tapped off within the machine or are run through a two phase transformer to get correct voltage. You can supply single phase with two phases e.g. two lives at 110v = 220v if phases are opposite.

Have you considered a machining centre or a milling machine with an additional axis or even two and do the whole job on one machine?

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Where did the leap from simple hobby machine like a Denford / Sieg to 10HP / 20 HP come in ?

If the part is small enough to fit the bed of a Denford etc then 3HP is more than ample to swipe it off the bed in one pass.

[Dean Jeffery 1Participant @deanjeffery1]

Hi

 

Cheers for the continued input guys, yes i could machine the parts needed with just a milling machine. But also could machine other parts that would be quicker on a lathe, the programme that did the milling was 8k lines long just for 3d milling on Heidenhain control. The pics of the said parts are on page 1, that is the biggest part for hobby use that will be machined to date.

But may also want to machine some alloy wheels at some point, so then this would be 100mm dia max again for hobby use.

 

So what size milling machine now fits the bill, IE next size up from bench/hobby machines. 

 

Cheers

Edited By Dean Jeffery 1 on 29/06/2014 17:10:55

[Dean Jeffery 1Participant @deanjeffery1]

Ebay item 221478071647

Fits the bill for turning but has a fault and comes with no tooling, TBH I don’t think it’s worth 5K half that at thr most.
What you guys think

Cheers

[Oompa LumpaParticipant @oompalumpa34302]

What do I think? Welcome to the real world of the self employed. That's what I think.

You will find that there will be many, many decisions you are going to have to make if you are looking at this as a "business". And nobody is goiing to decide for you. All you can do is make a decision based on the information you have to hand at the time.

I would be having someone else make them if you are looking at the quantities you are talking about. Sure, there are some successful one man bands with a CNC machine in his back garden shed making a good living. But it didn't happen overnight. Where the home machinist comes into his own is the one off specialist part. He can produce it (usually) cheaper than any full blown factory. I myself limit my "production runs" to ten. If I need more than ten I farm it out.

graham.

[Dean Jeffery 1Participant @deanjeffery1]

Graham I understand farming these out, but I don’t know if it’s just me or what. But it’s as though people are not interested in machining these, regards extra income well all been well this turns out well and does just that.
End of the day you have to start somewhere, even if it’s in the garden shed so to speak. I don’t expect this to happen over night, but want info. Been a model forum and wanting to make parts for RC’s thought this forum would be a good place to start, was just wanting advice on the machine on ebay.

Thanks

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

That one is over priced when you compare it to this one **LINK** or this **LINK**

[Dean Jeffery 1Participant @deanjeffery1]

Cheers bob

[Oompa LumpaParticipant @oompalumpa34302]

Dean, I have sent you a message. You need to log in to see it – top right flashy thing.

[mike mcdermidParticipant @mikemcdermid41977]

Dean i have tried to explain this to you

a CNC shop with a 100k machine sat there needs to make a return, its simple buisness im sure you understand a shop that can make 3000 widget for a quid a piece will not be interested in making 50 parts at 25 quid ,we have been down this road we bought our own equipment even when i worked in industry it was high value one offs or thousands at repetitive rates very rarely in between unless it was a favour for one of the gaffers mates

 

however as someone who has a commercial buisness machining parts i could buy one of yours copy it and be making them an hour later for half the price you can ,it happens i have seen this working both in taiwan and britain and if you think a customer will go "you ripped such and such off" i can tell you when you offer them the same part for less money they wont, this is becoming all too commonplace now where the money talks

 

you need to find a working relationship with someone outhere that can make it for the right price and qty to win all round

 

another thing that senior 200 cnc lathe on ebay …its 2.5k well worth every penny for a hobby guy making a few bits in a garage

Edited By mike mcdermid on 04/07/2014 10:26:43

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I have been watching this thread with interest, and am suddenly reminded of the John Harvey-Jones 'TroubleShooter' series on TV.

I fondly remember the episode where he tried to persuade Peter Morgan to set-up a Ford style production line. … Two men with diametrically opposed "values".

MichaelG.

[Author]

Posts