Need a CNC mill and lathe

[Dean Jeffery 1Participant @deanjeffery1]

[Dean Jeffery 1Participant @deanjeffery1]

I need a CNC mill and lathe, i no this has prob been covered many times but i'm limited in getting the right machine down the side of my house, i have just 790mm but this opens up to 1300mm after just 10ich or so.

I have recently sold a myford ML7 after i made some parts, but these parts are now wanted on a large scale. These are for RC hobby use, but the market seems good and people like what i've made.

The size of the product in stock billet form is 75mm dia 70 long for the lathe to turn, i need CNC for speed and repeatability. It will also be cutting Titanium mainly but also aluminium.

Converting a manual is not really an option, unless i pay somebody to do the conversions.

I need to know what CNC mill and lathe would be best for my needs, tolerance +- 0.05 on both machines max.

I don't want to import an machine due to the cost of importing, max budget for both would be 8-10k this would need to include CAD/CAM that can do both 2D and 3D milling, basic for turning and could program this myself on Fanuc.

The CAD/CAM also needs to be user friendly because never used it before.

Thanks

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

You won't find a huge range of choice from the usual ME suppliers, especially for lathes.

Two options for a mill are here:

**LINK**

The X3 would use less than 50% of your budget.

Neil

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

Have you considered out sourcing, there are a number of precision engineering companies that are happy to take on small batch work and the more you order the less the cost. You can get a lot of parts made for the price of a CNC hobby machine once you take out all the cost you would incur doing the job your self like material, tooling, electricity etc.

Bob

[Dean Jeffery 1Participant @deanjeffery1]

Neil cheers i have looked at this X3 and although it's only little too big, it just will not fit.

Bob

Yes i have had a few quotes but £30-£40 an hr is just silly money, the price goes up with been Ti. I can make these on a manual lathe in an hr or so, small hobby CNC half that time. Milling at work was just over an hr, but limited in spindle speed of 1500revs so was longer than it should have been.

I can get away with milling these at work, i did 3 on a night shift but asked the gaffer and he thought i was doing 1. I even asked what the rates was for me to pay work but £110 it's not going to happen.

TBH Im more concerned about what lathe to buy TBH, can't mill them if i can't turn them. But CNC is really a must, manaul is OK for 1 offs even a few but a production run has to be CNC.

But when it come to small CNC lathes it becomes more limited in the max turning Dia, and 75mm is needed.

Cheers guys.

Cheers

[Andrew EvansParticipant @andrewevans67134]

Are you looking for a new machine or 2nd hand? There are a few Denford and Boxford CNC lathes about on the 2nd hand market. I have a Denford Starturn converted to Mach3 which is a great little machine. What size parts are you making?

Andy

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Wabeco do CNC versions of their machines which should fit down your side entrance.

Take the table and swarf catcher of the ARC KX3 and it should fit through a standard doorway, drop Ketan an e-mail to confirm

 

Edited By JasonB on 15/06/2014 17:32:00

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Posted by Dean Jeffery 1 on 15/06/2014 16:25:24:

Bob

Yes i have had a few quotes but £30-£40 an hr is just silly money, the price goes up with been Ti. I can make these on a manual lathe in an hr or so, small hobby CNC half that time. Milling at work was just over an hr, but limited in spindle speed of 1500revs so was longer than it should have been.

I would have thought £30-£40 an hour is reasonable, it seems nobody wants to pay engineers a decent wage, but how much per hour do we pay dentists, lawyers, garages etc?

Tony

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

I often think that people who make parts for others or to sell on often do so with out understanding the real cost after all time is money.

For any machine to cope well with a tough material it needs to be ridged and have the power.

As said there is a Boxford's on Flea bay which may fit the bill **LINK** .

Bob

[Dean Jeffery 1Participant @deanjeffery1]

Posted by Andrew Evans on 15/06/2014 17:16:30:

Are you looking for a new machine or 2nd hand? There are a few Denford and Boxford CNC lathes about on the 2nd hand market. I have a Denford Starturn converted to Mach3 which is a great little machine. What size parts are you making?

Andy

Post above gives the size i need mate, plus my opening post.

[Dean Jeffery 1Participant @deanjeffery1]

Posted by JasonB on 15/06/2014 17:28:28:

Wabeco do CNC versions of their machines which should fit down your side entrance.

Take the table and swarf catcher of the ARC KX3 and it should fit through a standard doorway, drop Ketan an e-mail to confirm

Edited By JasonB on 15/06/2014 17:32:00

Cheers will looking into this and email

thanks

[Dean Jeffery 1Participant @deanjeffery1]

Posted by Bob Brown 1 on 15/06/2014 18:13:08:

I often think that people who make parts for others or to sell on often do so with out understanding the real cost after all time is money.

For any machine to cope well with a tough material it needs to be ridged and have the power.

As said there is a Boxford's on Flea bay which may fit the bill **LINK** .

Bob

 

Cheers bob that 1 is on my list on ebay, i live in rotherham also. But failed to answer my questions so thought he can't be bothered with a sale Plus the 160 only has 80mm chuck so turning 75mm stock might be a difficult. 

Edited By Dean Jeffery 1 on 15/06/2014 19:54:51

[Dean Jeffery 1Participant @deanjeffery1]

Posted by Andrew Evans on 15/06/2014 17:16:30:

Are you looking for a new machine or 2nd hand? There are a few Denford and Boxford CNC lathes about on the 2nd hand market. I have a Denford Starturn converted to Mach3 which is a great little machine. What size parts are you making?

Andy

New or used as long as it does what i need it to do

Been looking at denfords, boxfords, emco's but finding it hard to get the info i need.

Was even looking at a denford cyclone and having it craned over the house, just waiting on a quote. But this 1 i have seen is 3 phase, not sure if they are all 3 phase or if a simple convertor would allow it to run on single.

[Andrew EvansParticipant @andrewevans67134]

I Think the smaller boxfords and Denfords like mine would be too small for 75mm diam, particularly in Ti. They are ok for smaller Al and light cuts on steel. bigger Denfords like the Cyclones, Easiturns and Miracs are likely to be more suitable. Not cheap though.

is it possible to make purely on a CNC mill, maybe with a 4th axis? It may be more cost effective to do that and there is more choice of new mills than CNC lathes for home use.

On the hourly rate though, I don't think £40 an hour for a skilled machinist is unreasonable. Comparable with what a car mechanic would charge.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Dean,

It will be difficult for you to find any hobby CNC mill or lathe to meet your requirement for tolerances, as non which are mentioned in this thread are rigid enough to give you repeatability on titanium, and the diameter is just too big for hobby CNC lathes be it Boxford or denford hobby size, in terms of what the jaws will hold – not rigid enough for your diameter.

For what you are considering, you really need to look at more industrial options.

Ketan at ARC

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Also, once you take the cost of the 3D CAD-CAM out of the budget you will have nothing left for a machine.

Then add in the time and learning curve to become proficient and that £30 to £40 is very, very attractive. For that you will get multiple parts.

The whole game is a juggling match between money, ability, machines and output divided by sales.

Welcome to the real world.

[mike mcdermidParticipant @mikemcdermid41977]

We machine 2.6kg of titanium to a part weighing less than 60g in less than 2 minutes that's about 20 components an hour done 1 at a time (not nested or fixtures) including faffage ,we use a cutter that costs 40 quid and our cam cost 7.5k

We had similar problems when we started making bikes but it's illusion all to think your going to machine titanium on purchased hobby CNc equipment and get any kind of monetary return or metal removal rateyou need a good two tons of rigidity to make a profit so I would budget 40k for a mill ,cad cam ,tooling and good carbide (not crap)as a minimum

alternately find a company like us that takes on precision jobs no one else does and is happy to take on unusual jobs most CBC shops want to make 1000 widgets at 5 quid than scrap a one off at 5k and we compete quite happily with the Taiwanese now we have production process

if you were making real parts you will quickly find the 5 or 6 an hour you make on your toy CNc would translate to many more if done by a company set to do work for you

[Dean Jeffery 1Participant @deanjeffery1]

Cheers guys

 

The first IMG 4 items the top left sizes are

OP1 

1 face up

2 turn dia from 75 to 69.5 +-.1 will be fine to 22.5 long

3 turn 69.5 dia to 24.5 15.5 long .1 tol

4 drill to any size the machine can take to around 17mm 35 deep

op2

turn round

1 face to length 32mm

2 turn 75 to 49.95 +0-0.05 10 long

3 turn 49.95 dia to 21 long +.1-0

4 bore for a bearing 18 dia – 0.025 32.5 long

 

 

Turning on a lathe with just 1mm cuts myford ML7, so thought a CNC would handle this just as good. Milling was also just 1mm rough cuts. Finishing was done with a ball nose taking very fine step over cuts to get a smooth finish.

 

On a scale this is not going to be thousands off, hope so but doubt it.

Mike if you turn 2.6kg in 2 mins down to just 60g, so i need more info regarding machining my parts.

 

Software i know you can pay 7.5k plus for it, and work pays 5 times that just for the license a year. But the part is not very technical just basic 3d, on another forum a bloke replicated it in just 15mins but used solid works or solid cam

The £30-£40 an hr was just for turning from to local firms, 1 i used to work at was £30 an hr.

 

I know it's not easy just thought or hoped it would be possible to get these done at home, and based the turning on the turning i did on the manual lath. If these can be made at home in under 3 hrs i can make good money on the orders i have just now, i have 2 parts going to the states for testing to make sure they are bullet prove. I have no doubts about them been has though they are replacing aluminum, just a different design.

The allo 1 weighs 86.5g the Ti comes in at 89g but using Ti bolts takes this down to the same weight as the alloy.

Cheers

 

Edited By Dean Jeffery 1 on 16/06/2014 09:02:28

Edited By Dean Jeffery 1 on 16/06/2014 09:03:06

[mike mcdermidParticipant @mikemcdermid41977]

I used to work for dassault systemes as an applications guy 35k a year on software license??, is catia and large aerospace type of licence money for one seat , and it still doesn't bring the speed what a product like volumill does

we actually use NX and volumill as opposed to catia and volumill and thats where the speed comes from, that 7.5 k for volumill paid for itself in the first 6 months of owning it and it roughs material at 5mm stepover and 25mm depth in most cases the first time you press the button you think the life of the endmill will be measured in how fast it rapids to the job ,but to watch it is something to behold , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrqlxk6Lflw

, im not teaching you to suck eggs here but 30-40 quid is not bad if your getting 30-40 parts out an hour ,obviously you wont be but the economics do work and this is how we had to start up our firm plus we had to make the product here in the UK for the same as the taiwanese whilst we reshored the product and brought it back home

we had ridiculous sums quoted for some of our bike parts and even at the lowest quotes of 25 quid a component the first 150 alone cost more than the machining centre we bought and there are 8 cnc machined parts in our assemblies the economics said BUY

Owning your own machine makes it so you have a specific freedom but then the design for manufacture also goes out the window as you get in the mindset of "itll only take a minute to do this and this and this" by the time your done its a part that wouldnt look out of place on the ISS

However a lot of CNC subcon companies will take on work based on what they can make in that hour and if a client will pay 65 quid an hour (which is the going rate around here) or a guy comes in and says ive been quoted 40 quid an hour they arent going to even bother quoting, let alone when you add in its not a long term thing or theres a few to be made etc etc ……their eyes just glaze over

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

The CAD software could be something like ViaCAD or MoI3D for around £200 or less.

CAM software could be CamBam (£93) and/or Deskproto (£200 hobby price or £800 for a commercial licence). CamBam also has lathe g-code output in a basic but very usable form. Bobcad/cam is another option, but the price varies and it seems to be a love hate kind of product.

If Arceurotrade's mills aren't what you need, maybe look at what Amadeal have here

Amadeal also show a CNC lathe of about Sieg C6 proportions on their site here but it may not still be available.

This video shows a Myford converted CNC lathe – I think the conversion kit should be available soon, but no price as yet.

 

 

Martin.

Edited By blowlamp on 16/06/2014 09:36:45

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Dean,

Bear in mind you can break a mill down into smaller parts.

Neil

[Dean Jeffery 1Participant @deanjeffery1]

Mike

If this was going to be on a massive production run then no problem, but this is for a wanna be DYIer. IE no point machining parts in a few mins spending more than i can afford on software, tools and machines if the parts only sell on a small scale.

 

Blowlamp

Cheers for the cad/cam info

I have looked at both lathes and mills from that site, been a hobby engineering site what machines do you guys use CNC related that would fit my needs.

Neil

Yes this is an option but finding a machine that can be stripped easy IE 2/3 main parts.

Cheers

Also found a denford cyclone delivered for 4k, but would need a convertor and depends on the quote i get back from the crane crew.

 

Edited By Dean Jeffery 1 on 16/06/2014 11:12:51

Edited By Dean Jeffery 1 on 16/06/2014 11:19:21

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

It shouldn't be difficult to break an X3 into 3 or 4 parts. For a start the column bolts to the back of the table.

Neil

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 16/06/2014 11:51:49:

It shouldn't be difficult to break an X3 into 3 or 4 parts. For a start the column bolts to the back of the table.

Neil

Not a good idea for the KX3 CNC machine. At best you could take the table off….provided he knows what he is doing…..as no guidance or assistance provided by ARC.

Reading this thread about Deans requirements…especially for repeatability in respect of titanium, ARC would prefer to decline. This is based on practical experience.

Ketan at ARC.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Dean,

please be aware that there is also a very steep learning curve which you will go through regardless of what machine you end up getting, and at these hobby machine prices, they do not include any professional support. Most support is forum based.

we ourselves have gone through this and learned the hard way, and programming within 15 mins comes after many years of experience, so please be aware.

Ketan at ARC

Edited By Ketan Swali on 16/06/2014 12:36:29

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