N D Willoughby 4-4-0 Pamela

[Shed Full FredParticipant @shedfullfred32190]

Evening,

Does anyone know of or have any details of this locomotive designed for 4 3/4" gauge? A while back I bought from Ebay three drawings for this locomotive. These are side elevation, sectioned side elevation and main frames/buffers/stretchers.

A search via an online ME index provides comment upon ND Willoughby, GS Willoughby, and as mentioned elsewhere in this forum their 0-6-0T "Pioneer".

But, alas nothing on the 4-4-0…

Regards, JP

[Shed Full FredParticipant @shedfullfred32190]

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Had a ME squirrel. 4 3/4" seem to be pretty rare.

Between 1943 and 1956 a 4 3/4" is only mentioned twice

There's an American 4-4-0 in 3895 (1991) which is the first mention of a 4 3/4" 4-4-0

Edited By Ady1 on 23/08/2023 00:10:05

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

As this gauge is not UK but used on the east coast of USA you might do better to ask on the HSM forum.

[DiodeDickParticipant @diodedick]

4 3/4" gauge is actually correct for 1":1ft scale. I believe that some museum models, and perhaps the original "Cosmo Bonser" (if I got that right) were built to that scale. It is far more convenient if modelling from work's drawings than the the 1 1/8" used since the 1940's for 5" gauge. Prior to the change lead by Maskelyne the scale used was 1":1ft which left loco's looking a bit bottom heavy.

dick

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Posted by DiodeDick on 23/08/2023 21:52:34:

4 3/4" gauge is actually correct for 1":1ft scale. I believe that some museum models, and perhaps the original "Cosmo Bonser" (if I got that right) were built to that scale. It is far more convenient if modelling from work's drawings than the the 1 1/8" used since the 1940's for 5" gauge. Prior to the change lead by Maskelyne the scale used was 1":1ft which left loco's looking a bit bottom heavy.

dick

I thought it was 1 1/16 in/ft. This scales 4' 8.5" to 5.002" which is near enough for most people. It is of course hellish inconvenient. 2.25 mm to the inch is also pretty accurate, and a lot handier (unless you're a diehard Imperialist)

[DiodeDickParticipant @diodedick]

4 3/4" gauge is actually correct for 1":1ft scale. I believe that some museum models, and perhaps the original "Cosmo Bonser" (if I got that right) were built to that scale. It is far more convenient if modelling from work's drawings than the the 1 1/8" used since the 1940's for 5" gauge. Prior to the change lead by Maskelyne the scale used was 1":1ft which left loco's looking a bit bottom heavy.

dick

Yes, well spotted Duncan, the current scale for 5" gauge is 1 1/16":1ft, not 1 1/8". Anno domini.

A model of "Cosmo Bonsor" (note corrected spelling) built in 1910 by J C Crebbin is held by the Science Museum. Their website gives no indication of scale or gauge.

The silver model that I can see in my mind's eye is not the "Como" by Dr J Bradbury Winter that features in Vol 1 of 1898 of the Model Engineer (and amateur electrician).

Still some more digging to do, just for my own peace of mind.

dick.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

ME 2590 (1951)

The 3/4’;-in. Gauge
Q SEVERAL READERS
have noticed that in
the recent note
(December 7th issue)
about the new track
belonging to the
Golden . Gate Live
Steamers, of Oakland,
California, U.S.A., the
available gauges are
stated to be 2 1/2-in.,
3 1/2-in. and 4 3/4-in. and
we are asked if we can
explain why the 5-in.
gauge is, presumably,
not recognised by our
American friends.
This is an old story
, which was fully debated
some 2o years ago
when the 5-in. gauge
¿rst came into use as a substitute for 4 3/4-in. gauge
in Britain. The controversy centred round the
then rapidly-growing desire to see true-to-scale
locomotives built to I-in. scale, but capable of
giving trouble-free and lasting service as passen-
ger-haulers, and matters came to a head when
interest was directed towards old-time types for
the purpose stated. One inch to the foot, is
apparently, a delightfully simple unit to use,
and 4 3/4 in. is a clear and ¿nite dimension to
which track can be laid; but many ‘people
have been surprised to discover how few British
locomotive types can be reduced to these
dimensions and give, at the same time, true-
to-scale appearance, robust working parts and
essential working clearances We all know now
that the problem was solved by the adopt1on_of
5-in gauge and 1 1/6 in scale, a combination which
gives a more practical scale/gauge ratio to which
almost any type of locomotive can be constructed
to give satisfactory service and very nearly
exact scale appearance
The American locomotive does not present
the same problems, due to the fact that its
dimensions are larger, in all directions, than those
of ours , so our American friends have never
had any reason to ¿nd fault with the 1-in scale on
4 3/4-in gauge The fact that the gauge is very
slightly wide for the scale does not affect a
mimature American locomotive to anything
approaching the same extent as it does a
British one, especially an old timer For
example, the Brighton Gladstone Class
would be very difficult to reproduce 1-in.
scale on 4 3/4-in gauge , but, as everybody
now knows, it is easily possible in 1 1/16 scale
on 5 in gauge

Edited By Ady1 on 23/08/2023 23:03:47

[Shed Full FredParticipant @shedfullfred32190]

Well, thanks for replies so far. There must have been a UK interest in 4 3/4" as articles by ND Willoughby (and his father? brother?) were published in ME several times.

[DaggersParticipant @daggers]

Not too sure if you have seen it but there is a old 43/4” gauge loco in the Station Road Steam archive. Search for “antique tender engine”. Might be or interest.

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