Mystery object

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 06/03/2022 17:26:00:

…

Of course doing home ballistics in the UK requires the legalities to be met: no second amendment sophistries here!

Dave

Yes, most of mine were done before the insane atrocities that produced the current legal labyrinths.

[John Doe 2Participant @johndoe2]

Many thanks tor all the replies. As I say, it was not my object, nor my photos, so I cannot get better ones – I was asking for another poster on a another website. I will report back to them.

Having read all the replies, my guess is that as Derek Lane says; someone found an unfired round, and tried to hacksaw it open, but cut into the tail of the bullet as well as the shell case. Having got halfway through, they were able to wrench off the shell case – hence the part of the casing still attached to the bullet and the angled edge to the casing just below the cut where it was torn away?

Incidentally, the scratches on the copper/brass part are from the owner crudely cleaning the bullet up – it was very rusty in his first picture, (that I didn't post).

Thanks again.

Edited By John Doe 2 on 07/03/2022 12:57:06

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

Might I suggest a far simpler explanation. The saw cut halfway through the base of the bullet was made so that it could be used as a plumb bob…

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Much too simple Mark.

Regards Ian.

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

The fact that you say the owner cleaned it because it was rusty, means that it is maybe of German origin from wartime as they made bullets with steel jackets at that time.Copper washing to stop immediate rusting.

Last time I saw these was in .44 Magnum pistol made by Norma, I recovered some after about a month and they had rusted.

I have just checked my list of cartridges and cannot find a calibre like that.

Edited By Clive Hartland on 07/03/2022 13:55:54

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Mark Rand on 07/03/2022 13:24:14:

Might I suggest a far simpler explanation. The saw cut halfway through the base of the bullet was made so that it could be used as a plumb bob…

Only simpler if you believe whoever sawed it was a clever chap with a plan. More likely, I feel, done by an ignoramus getting hold of a cartridge and wondering what's inside…

Double kudos to Derek for spotting the bullet probably hasn't been fired and the sawn badly getting it apart theory.

I doubt it's military. Overkill for firing at people and too small to be effective against vehicles or aircraft.

Dave

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

If it was rusted I strongly suspect this is the core of a 50BMG bullet. These used a steel core and while I can't find a dimension for the core 0.375" seems reasonable for 0.50" round. It would also explain the somwhat pointed profile. I did wonder before if it was a core but the gut indicates i wasn't tungsten and the rust was nor mentioned.

Someonr cut the jacket off a 50 cal bullet.

Robert G8RPi

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 07/03/2022 18:37:45:

If it was rusted I strongly suspect this is the core of a 50BMG bullet. These used a steel core and while I can't find a dimension for the core 0.375" seems reasonable for 0.50" round. It would also explain the somwhat pointed profile. I did wonder before if it was a core but the gut indicates i wasn't tungsten and the rust was nor mentioned.

Someonr cut the jacket off a 50 cal bullet.

Robert G8RPi

Possible, but the standard ball and AP rounds here:-

https://man.fas.org/dod-101/sys/land/ammo-50.gif

…don't show a similar form.

Some of the SLAP rounds have a long cone point, but the ones I've seen on t'net don't have a boat tail…

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 07/03/2022 18:37:45:

If it was rusted I strongly suspect this is the core of a 50BMG bullet…

Someonr cut the jacket off a 50 cal bullet.

…

When Clive mentioned the German's used Steel jacketed bullets in WW2 I looked it up. Still done today for cheapness – it wasn't just a wartime economy. The disadvantage is the rounds have to be used quickly because they go rusty, so again not military.

I'm pretty certain it's a whole bullet, not a core, because it's similar to G7 profile – Mick's spire point and boat-tail are typical of the external shape of a long-range bullet. Lastly 0.375" is a recognised calibre:

Next picture is of a '0.375 Lehigh Defense Match' bullet. Looks familiar?

An expensive way of making plumb bobs – the bullets alone are $2.32 each. Complete cartridges seem to average at about $6 each – not a cheap hobby!

Dave

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

When I click on your link, Dave, I see a different bullet to the one in your second pic – one that looks a bit more like the OP's in that it has a crimping groove, but still has a radius on the ogive, not a simple cone.

Pure match or target bullets *usually* don't have crimping groove – as in your second pic – as reloaders may have to seat at a depth to suit the rifling leed of their individual rifle. 40 thou standoff is a typical starting point for load development. Strong case-neck tension is used to hold the bullet in place against handling stresses.

A crimping groove suggests intended use in a production magazine rifle – the groove plus crimp prevents bullets getting seated deeper by successive recoil.

So I'd guess the LeHigh is being sold as a niche sniper (or long-range target/wannabe sniper) projectile to suit a particular model rifle. The OP's bullet may be aimed (hardy har har) at the same market.

I might be way behind the times, but I thought the balance between recoil, long-range flat trajectory, downrange energy retention, crosswind resistance, accurate barrel life etc. etc. had put .338" calibres in fashion for the time being for this purpose. .375" might need heavy rifles with pretty robust users if it's going to satisfy similar criteria.

 

Edited By Mick B1 on 07/03/2022 21:48:07

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

As noted above, I am way out of my depth … but here is the Russian patent for that design: **LINK**

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search?q=pn%3DRU2438096C1

There's enough in the Abstract to get the idea.

Note that [in common with many optical designs] the geometry covers a family of sizes, in proportion.

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 07/03/2022 19:54:04:

[…]

of a '0.375 Lehigh Defense Match' bullet. Looks familiar?

 

.

No, not particularly … the nose isn’t conical

MichaelG.

.

P.S. __ Here are some interesting variations on a theme:

https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/7-62x54r-russian-armor-piercing-7h13-7h26-7n37-cutaways/42656

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 07/03/2022 22:47:02

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Oh dear, I've been misunderstood again. I'm not saying the mystery object is specifically a Nosler e-tip or Lehigh Defense Match! I'm saying:

• the mystery object is a whole bullet, not a core cut out of a 0.5" bullet
• it has a 0.375" diameter which is a common civilian calibre, not military
• The bullet shape is similar to standard G7 long-range profile. (Similar: an exact match isn't essential because modern bullets have been improved since G7 was defined.)

In short, I believe the mystery object to be a bullet pulled from a 0.375" Holland and Holland cartridge. The shape suggests long-range shooting. The exact make and date of production are unknown – I haven't found an exact match!

Mick said: I might be way behind the times, but I thought the balance between recoil, long-range flat trajectory, downrange energy retention, crosswind resistance, accurate barrel life etc. etc. had put .338" calibres in fashion for the time being for this purpose. .375" might need heavy rifles with pretty robust users if it's going to satisfy similar criteria.

Safe to bet serious money that I'm not as well informed as Mick! I'm joining the dots on what little I know of US shooting interests and the types of ammunition available there: I could be wrong. My take is 0.375" is a hunting calibre suitable for animals larger than anything found in North America, yet many different 0.375" bullet shapes are available from US gun shops. My guess is many of them are shot for fun rather than at rogue elephants and police helicopters. 0.375" could have the same sort of macho appeal as the almighty Desert Eagle pistol: amazing looks and power, ideal for Hollywood willy-waving but otherwise impractical.

Dave

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, I know next to nothing about guns and bullets apart from them being able to kill, however I do have a non live bullet and an empty casing, don't know where I got them from as I don't use such things and never have (apart from one or two of those that you get at fun fares) so I think the one that I have must have been amongst a box of odd items bought at an auction.

In the photo below, it measures 83mm long, the casing being 63mm long, the end near to the reduction is 11.2mm in diameter and the other end next to the undercut being 11.8mm.

Next photo is the detonation end.

The bullet is 30.5mm long and 7.91mm between the knurled section and the blunt end.

The next photo is of the blunt end.

 

Smart pen and a cleaver idea Derek Lane, my son-in-law may like such a pen, although he only has shoot guns as he goes game shooting.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 08/03/2022 12:18:56

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Nick,

I think you have a standard US military .30-06 ball round made by Remington Arms of Bridgeport CT in 1943.

It's probably M2 Ball with a 152-grain bullet at a nominal MV of 2,805 ft./sec.

I suspect it's been fired in a military weapon with slightly relaxed chamber tolerances, from the mild swelling at the case web ahead of the extraction groove.

Edited By Mick B1 on 08/03/2022 12:59:41

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 08/03/2022 11:24:16:

Oh dear, I've been misunderstood again. […]

.

Presumably by me; for which I apologise

But the conical [not ogival] nose does seem to be a fundamental identifying feature.

MichaelG.

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

I agree the .375 calibre but have never seen pointed boat tail bulets used in an H & H .375. The bullets have always been round nose and flat based ( recovered from game shot by Game wardens) H & H ammo is maximum impact, ie. Elephant or cape Buffalo control.

F Dunlap was an acknowledged master gunsmith and he only lists the .375 once in his book. Saying it was very accurate and used out to 250 yards range.

In the cartridge listings I can find no other listing of that calibre so it is a mystery indeed.

[VicParticipant @vic]

It doesn’t look much like rifling marks.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Clive Hartland on 08/03/2022 13:15:06:

I agree the .375 calibre but have never seen pointed boat tail bulets used in an H & H .375. …

That's why I posted photographs of pointed boat tail H&H .375 bullets and linked to the webshop where you can buy them (legalities permitting).

Same webshop also sells round nosed and blunt bullets exactly of the type Clive mentions, but trust me they aren't the only type available. Sharp pointed boat-tailed 0.375 bullets aren't unusual, at least in the US.

Thanks to Vic for the lovely clear photos of rifling marks. I spent a good 40 minutes looking on the web without finding any. Ho hum.

Dave

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 08/03/2022 14:25:03:

[…]

That's why I posted photographs of pointed boat tail H&H .375 bullets …

.

Sorry, Dave … Can we please distinguish between ‘pointed’ and ‘conical’

All of the images you have posted have, I believe, ogival shapes [regardless of the sharpness of the very tip]

MichaelG.

[John Doe 2Participant @johndoe2]

I apologise for the poor original photos of this object; they were taken by someone else on another forum, and they are all there were to copy. The marks are from the owner's crude attempts at cleaning the object by scraping. 

 

If one was trying to make a plumb bob, you wouldn't cut a slot like that for the string, because the bob would very likely hang crooked, which would be of limited use.

Surely you would drill a hole for the string in the centre of the flat end?

Edited By John Doe 2 on 09/03/2022 08:10:00

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Posted by Mick B1 on 08/03/2022 12:55:31:

Nick,

I think you have a standard US military .30-06 ball round made by Remington Arms of Bridgeport CT in 1943.

It's probably M2 Ball with a 152-grain bullet at a nominal MV of 2,805 ft./sec.

I suspect it's been fired in a military weapon with slightly relaxed chamber tolerances, from the mild swelling at the case web ahead of the extraction groove.

Edited By Mick B1 on 08/03/2022 12:59:41

Hi Mick, thanks for your information although I'm not familiar with the technical jargon. The actual weight of the bullet, which I didn't think to include, currently weighs 11,1793 grams.

Regards Nick.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Nicholas Farr on 09/03/2022 08:53:29:

 

…

 

Hi Mick, thanks for your information although I'm not familiar with the technical jargon. The actual weight of the bullet, which I didn't think to include, currently weighs 11,1793 grams.

Regards Nick.

About 172 grains, and flat based, so not M1 or M2 ball.

Opens the question of where your bullet came from, then. You've got a case that's been fired at full pressure, and a bullet that hasn't. It looks as if the bullet may not've come from an identical round to the case. An outside possibility is that it's an American-made .303 calibre bullet (actual diameter nominally .311"  ). A normal .30 calibre bullet would measure .308" diameter, but a .311" might finger-fit into an expanded fired .30 caseneck.

Dunno….

Edited By Mick B1 on 09/03/2022 09:34:04

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 08/03/2022 17:50:39:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 08/03/2022 14:25:03:

[…]

That's why I posted photographs of pointed boat tail H&H .375 bullets …

.

Sorry, Dave … Can we please distinguish between ‘pointed’ and ‘conical’

All of the images you have posted have, I believe, ogival shapes [regardless of the sharpness of the very tip]

MichaelG.

No, I meant to draw attention to the shape at the end of the cone – the point or tip.

Bullets and shells often have a conical shape where the curve is defined as an ogive. However, it's the tip I'm interested in because it's exact form depends on the intended target. Large animals are shot at relatively short range (less than 250 metres) with a heavy blunt bullet designed to deliver maximum energy to the target by not coming out the other side. Conversely, long-range requires an aerodynamic bullet with a long sharp cone at the front and a curved 'boat-tail' at the rear to reduce drag. Improved aerodynamics reduce the weight of the bullet, and the shape means they are more likely to pass clean through animals, thus causing less damage than they could. Long range shooting at animals is unkind and stupid, because it's more likely to cause painful non-fatal wounds than a clean kill.

The mystery object comes to a sharp point (albeit rounded at the very end) rather than being blunt or round like these examples:

All I'm saying is the mystery object is consistent in size and shape with a long-range 0.375 H&H bullet like this Nosler example:

The examples pictured in this post are all hunting bullets, designed to expand on impact. This is undesirable when target shooting, so it's possible to buy solid bullets in 0.375 H&H specifically intended to fly long distances with minimum deviation to punch a clean round hole in a sheet of paper.

Irrespective of tip form, the examples are all genuine 0.375 Holland & Holland cartridges. As the sharp pointed H&H bullets are very similar in size and shape to the mystery object, I'm moderately confident it's a .375 H&H, make and age unknown. (Digging around the web, I found .375 H&H is a British round developed for African game during the Empire. The mystery object might have been made in the UK long ago. Does anyone have any old H&H catalogues?)

I see Nick got the mystery object's weight – about 11.2g. This is about 173grains, which is lighter than all my examples:

Nosler = 270gr = 17.5g
Federal = 300gr = 19.4g

The mystery object's light weight suggests it's a target or match bullet, which I think Mick said early in the thread.

Dave

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Mick B1, I don't know any history of the bullet and casing, but the bullet was in the casing and I had to reshape the out of shape open end with a little light peening, using a 7.9mm twist drill and a small brass hammer with a nylon head to get the bullet out, but it was still a bit tight to get out and I had to grip the bullet in a cheap ally vice from Aldi's with rubber protectors on the jaws, while wriggling the casing off. The other casing had no bullet in it, but the open end still has a slightly crimped edge and remains of knurling's on the inside that match the pitch of the knurling's on the bullet that I've shown, but of course it may be a marriage as you suggest.

Thanks again for your info.

Regards Nick.

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