Myford ML1 ? or 2 ?

[me1Participant @me]

Hi All

A little bit of history… I live on an Island in the English Channel and I purchased a Myford lathe almost 2 years ago from an adjacent Island just before the 1st lock down. This was to be my first lathe and was looking forward to it arrival. Unfortunatly as things progressed through Covid times the stretch of water between the two islands proved a issue and the lathe was stuck.

Along came the opportunity to purchase a Harrison 140 from the UK – the deal was done and the lathe arrived – across the same stretch of water but bypassing the smaller island…. anyway i'm getting to the point.

A good friend of mine was visiting the smaller island last week and he managed to pick up the Myford and bring it back to me.

I must say it is a beauty – hardly any wear apart from a few of the gears seem a little loose, the bed looks great. A good strip clean adjust and rebuild is the order of the day.

Ive done lots of research on the ML1 but this seems different – all the pictures ive seen have flat drum drive pulley this one has V pulleys.

The serial number is either *35* or *352* can't quite work it out as there is a little bit of denting on the plate.

Are there any users of the ML1 out there that can help with directions and tips as to the overhaul – one thing i'd like to do is take out the slop in the gear train. Is it best to remake the shafts or bush the gears ??

Finally (for now) what colour would the original ML1's have been. This one is black.

I will post some pictures as soon as I make a start on the overhaul.

Thanks

[me1Participant @me]

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Once you post some pictures you'll get more responses

do the back as well as the front if you can

[Lee RogersParticipant @leerogers95060]

ML 1/2/3/4 identifying always throws up a few curves . The lathes.co.uk page has a very in depth feature on the entire range and it's evolution. Don't get into serial numbers they will fry your brain, the cast in numbers / letters are foundry marks and are meaningless from an id view. Other numbers on brass plates or the bed may or may not be Myford origin, company owners often put their own asset numbers on. The final curve is owner mods, details like pulleys , hand wheels etc are often found to have been changed.

Don't worry about the slack changewheels , tight ones are more a problem.As a companion to your Harrison it's potentially a great little lathe if used within it's limitations of size and rigidity. Above all enjoy !

[Philip RoweParticipant @philiprowe13116]

I had a ML2 passed onto me by my father who purchased it new in 1933/4. It was originally fitted with flat belt pulleys but I later converted it to v pulleys as it suited my drive system and I was able to squeeze four diameters in the space of the original three to give a greater speed variation. This is something that I know quite a few owners have done over the years. It's serial number was L277 which was stamped into a small machined pad on the left hand side of the bed below the back gear. To the best of my knowledge Myford never used separately attached number plates and as Lee says the cast numbers will fry your brain.

One thing that easily identifies a ML1 is the headstock and bed are one casting, whereas with the ML2 and onwards the headstock was a separate casting bolted to the bed. Also the ML2 had a centre height of 3 1/8" not 3 1/2" which further aids identification.

As to colour my father's was originally a very dark greeny blue which by the time I had it had become almost like black. Hope some of this helps.

Phil

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

As I understand it the Odd numbers are something like 15" centres, and the even numbers longer

Also the ML1 and ML2 were 3 .125" centre height, where the ML3 and ML4 were 3.50", like the post war ML7 Series

Look at Lathes UK site for more details!.

The Cross and Top Slide Leadscrews are 12 tpi, so each of the 80 graduations are not exactly a "thou

At least the main Leadscrew is 8 tpi. And although the changwheels are 5/8" bore 20DP, 14.5 PA, they are driven and compounded by 3/32 pins rather than the keys used on the later 7 Series.

So 7 Series wheels can be used, but will need to be drilled for the 3/32 pin to match the Driving Collars and other gears.

Another peculiarity is that the handwheel for the Apron, having no Idler gear, works the reverse way to what might be expected

The mandrel thread started out as 7/8 BSW (9 tpi) but changed to 7/8 x 12 tpi, and some of the later lathes, I believe went to the 1.125 x 12 tpi used on the 7 Series, but without the register

On lathe that I helped refurbish, I made a 7/8 x 9 to Myford (7 Series ) adaptor so that more modern chucks can be used. There is a picture in the article in MEW 310

HTH

Howard.

[me1Participant @me]

As always the answers are very informative and useful – I spent most of today stripping it down to clean it and inspect most parts.

It has the one piece headstock/body so that I assume makes it the ML 1.

Th original colour can be seen in areas that have never been seen since it was put together it is a very dark greeny grey. the gap between the bedways is painted a very bright red.

The cast in serial number plate just below the spindle is defiantly 352.

The change wheels are held together with the small pins. (on this is there a gear chart to aid screw cutting)

There doesn't appear to be a thread dial indicator, was there one for this model or if not can someone point me in the direction on how to make one.

The small dial indicator on the cross slide is worn – the dial locks into the nut by way of two punched slots, with time the slots in the brass dial have worn and no longer lock into the nut, any suggestions for a repair or is this part still available.

The slop in the drive train gears is going to get on my nerves and I think I will want to make them "less sloppy", any suggestions greatfully accepted.

Pictures taken and posted up soon.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

The difference between the odd and even numbers is the centre disatance. The even numbers are a greater distance between centres.

You will learn a lot about the machine if you read the pages on Lathes UK website, dedicated to the Myford ML. 1,2, 3 and 4.

Changewheels are driven by the 3/32" pins inserted into the driving collars, and the each gear.

The drillings do not go right through, so that the pins are retained, once in place.

If genuine ML1,2 ,3 or 4 gears are not available, and you are prepared to drill right through one gear, it can be used as template to drill 7 Series gears. They are the same bore, but use keyways, so drill the hole away from the keyway.

See the article in MEW 310 about refurbishing a ML4, It shows how to modify a Series 7 gear.. Together with the Lathes UK website, It may answer some of your questions.

Gears are compounded in the same manner by the 3/32 pins.

If your machine lacks the optional tumbler reverse, you may well need to set up a two stage gear train to provide a feed towards the Headstock.

The finest feed that you can obtain with standard gears will need extra gears, a 20T and another 60T.

The drive is 20 : 60/ 20: 65/20: 60 on the Leadscrew.. This because the Leadscrew is Right Hand, where the later ones, (7 Series ) have a conventional Left hand Thread.

The threads on the Leadscrews on the Cross and Top Slides are 12 tpi, (Not 10 tpi ) So each of the 80 divisions on the dials is not exactly a thousandth of an inch. (0.001042" )

Consequently you will need to follow the maxim of "Measure twice, cut once"

HTH

Howard

[me1Participant @me]

Some of the lathe before I totally stripped it down.

Found some very interesting bits – the chuck that is fitted in the pictures is very unusual as it has a large ring that moves the jaws – it with 3 other chucks that came with the lathe are all American made.

I'm not too sure what the two gears do which are fitted to the rear of the chuck – 9 oclock in the 3rd picture – other ML1's Ive seen don't have those – is it a reverse.

 

After these pictures were taken I finished strippijg it down for cleaning and repainting – I have decided I am going to paint it to match my Harrison 140 and my Alfred Herbert Mill.

 

Edited By Me. on 07/12/2021 15:50:50

[Richard MillingtonParticipant @richardmillington63972]

The gear is for backgear, undo the V-belt drive allen screws locking it onto the headstock spindle and slide the gears in which should give backgear range.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Your current chuck is a Scroll Chuck, operated by two tommy bars.

If you decide to obtain conventional 3 and 4 jaw chucks, you will either need to make backplates for them, or alternatively make an adaptor so that the normally available chucks and backplates withr the 1.125 x 12 tpi, with 1.250 register can be used..

The adaptor will have a 7/8 x 9 (7/8 BSW ) internal thread for earlier models or the 7/8 x 12 tpi on the later ones.

To improve concentricity, once the internal thread has been cut, it should mbe mounted on the mandrel, and the external machining then carried out..

I was fortunate that a friend loaned me 7/8 BSW taps for the internal thread, so only the external thread needed to be cut.

If you want to make backplates from scratch, castings should be available from various suppliers, or just make up the adaptor, so that easily available backplates and chucks can be used.

Your machine does not appear to incorporate the optional Tumbler Reverse, so if you wished to cut Left Hand threads, only a single stage reduction with changewheels would be required.

You need a two stage gear train to traverse the Saddle towards the Headstock..

When you use Backgear, do not forget to slacken or remove the grubscrew in the belt pulley.

Do NOT engage Backgear with the grubscrew tight as a means of locking the spindle to remove a stuck chuck. That risks damaging all the gears involved, which will be very difficult to source for such an old machine.

If a chuck is stuck change the belt to minimum Mandrel speed, and tighten it. Then grip a piece of hexagon bar in a 3 jaw chuck to allow a socket and power bar to be hit with a mallet to jar the chuck loose

Alternatively, a long piece or bar or wood can be placed between the chuck jaws, and the end hit with a mallet to jar the chuck loose. If the chuck is REALLY tight, it might need several blows before to chuck frees off

If it needs to be said, never screw a chuck on under power, to avoid this problem!..

HTH

Howard

[me1Participant @me]

Thanks for the info – luckily the lathe came with 1 3 jaw and 4 jaw chuck a small face plate and a catch plate – I can count at least 10 change wheels altogether of various teeth.

Thanks for the advice in regard to the reverse gears – If i ever want to cut a left hand thread i'll use my Harrison…

I will post some more pictures of the half way restoration – so far all paint is stripped off and degreased and almost ready for painting – the slide ways on the cross slide and compound are showing some wear but not much.

Thanks

[Philip RoweParticipant @philiprowe13116]

Posted in error, deleted.

Edited By Philip Rowe on 12/12/2021 15:54:12

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Posted by Me. on 06/12/2021 08:45:35:

all the pictures ive seen have flat drum drive pulley this one has V pulleys.

Yours also had flat belt pulleys, just that they've been hacked into Vs. Fairly common but I've not seen one done so obviously in the middle of each rim. More common is to bunch the Vs together and leave the smallest flat rim uncut.

Find and join the Drummond Groups.io group which covers the early Myfords too. That group has files and posts of data for changewheels including metric. There is a facebook group too but is only for people who do not know how to find a proper forum.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Having started with flat belts, your was probably a fairly early machine. So would expect the Mandrel to be 7/8 BSW

Some later ones, did use V belts, I think. One of the ones that I helped get back into some sort of order certainly looked to be V belt drive rather than remachined flat belt, and that was 7/8 BSW rather than the later 7/8 x 12 tpi.

Although you never can tell with a many previous owners machine!

Howard

[me1Participant @me]

After a week of stripping, degreasing, adjustment, a little bit of scrapping and painting i'm almost there.

I need to adjust the tailstock and secure the motor, just waiting on new vee belts –

There is some wear on the bed, it drops by 0.1mm right in front of the spindle, but further back it is still very true.

I'm working on a surface grinder at the moment so I think the future project once thats working will be to re-grind the bedways.

The first picture contains what I assume to be the tumbler reverse gear – it has a strange brass cog on it with only 5 teeth – I assume this was a past project for the previous owner.

Is there a gear chart for thread cutting and carriage speeds available ? I also liked to know what the spindle speeds would be – the motor is 1/4HP 1420rpm.

Edited By Me. on 14/12/2021 13:50:31

[DiogenesIIParticipant @diogenesii]

The tumbler reverse gear is a separate assembly comprising, er, ?3 gears affixed to a 'carrier' bracket fitted to a pivot immediately below and slightly forward of the pinion on the end of the spindle – I think the models originally fitted with one had notches for the selector detent present on that curve on the end of the casting between the back of the spindle and the leadscrew bracket..

..the memory is treacherous here, I can't remember whether they are retro-fittable – further advice would be welcome, an end-on picture of the main casting below the spindle would be handy – I'll see what Tony G says…

(Edit – I think having had more of a look that your model has the early type spindle-pinion 'collar' fixing and probably never had a T/reverse fitted – that doesn't necessarily mean that you can't fit one, just that I might not be the man to tell you how..).

The brass item in the photo doesn't look like any part of the original equipment to me (however there are forum members who know more than I)..

The speeds will depend on the ratio of the pulleys fitted to the motor and countershaft – a two-stage reduction is needed, I don't know if you have a countershaft, but one can't connect the motor and spindle directly without an intermediate set of pulleys..

 

Edited By DiogenesII on 14/12/2021 16:25:50

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

If the lathe has Tumbler Reverse, there will be lever, sticking towards the operator, immediately at the back of the Headstock, carrying two identical smallish gears. Moving the lever will engage either one with the pinion on the Mandrel, so that the drive to chagewheels is either direct, or through the second gear acting as an idler to reverse the direction of rotation of the rest of the gear train.

So far, I haven't spotted it on your pictures.yet. Tumbler reverse was not standard, it was an optional extra.

If you look at the Lathes UK website pages for the ML 1,2,3 and 4, you will see at least one illustration or picture of the arrangement

The shaft and control lever for the Back Gear looks to be missing.

The unfinished brass gear may be a nice ornament, ( Or W I P ) but of little practical use; except possibly to lock the changewheel train for some purpose. (Not chuck removal I hope! )

Howard

 

Edited By Howard Lewis on 14/12/2021 16:18:57

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Rereading the original post, if the Headstock is cast integral with e bed,, it will be a very early model, so likely to be a 1 or a 2., with a 3.125" centre height, and a 7/8 BSW Mandrel thread for the chuck (Unless some previous owner has fitted a later mandrel.)

Centre distance will indicate whether a 1 or a 2.

Lathes UK pages on the ML1,2, 3 &4 will make clearer what you need to know.

On later versions of all models, the Headstock was secured to the bed by four 1/4 BSF studs and nuts.

Unless keen to realign the Headstock, these are best left alone, unless there definitely is a need to realign!.

(I met one where the Headstock was misaligned because a previous owner had cross threaded one of the studs, so that it pulled the headstock out of line when the nut was tightened. We effected a cure so that the lathe, again, turned parallel )

Howard

[me1Participant @me]

For those that asked – here are some pictures of what I assume to be the reverse gear for the leadscrew.

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Hello Me,

I have followed your thread and the rebuild of this lathe on and off from afar so to speak. You have been asking about what thread pitches if might be capable of cutting.

To answer that, are you able to list the tooth counts for all the change wheels that came with it. We know the leadscrew will be 8 tpi, that was the standard chosen by Myford in their very earliest days and maintained throughout their manufacturing history.

As you have photographed the gear train set on the lathe at present, it is a simple chain with the only influential elements being the spindle gear and the leadscrew gear, the rest are merely idlers connecting these two and play no part in the calculation. Used as it it in that set up for screwcutting it is given by the ratio of the spindle gear tooth count, divided by the leadscrew tooth count multiplied by 0.125 [the pitch of the leadscrew]

An as example and from observation, assuming the two gears to be 35T and 65T respectively, that calculation gives 35/65 x 0.125 = 0.0673 inches pitch which is 14.88 tpi; hardly useful but you see how it is worked out.

Just out of curiosity, what is the other lathe that can be seen in the background behind the Myford?

Regards Brian

[me1Participant @me]

Thanks Brian – very useful information there – I will count the teeth and post the results on here. I think I have a full set of gears about 10 in total.

So put it simply – the gears used in between the spindle gear and the lead screw gear have no influence of the pitch of the thread, there only influence will be the speed in which they turn the lead screw

All I need to know is the spindle gear and the lead screw gear ?

The other lathe in the background is my Harrison 140, I also have an Alfred Herbert vertical mill.

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

No.

The intermediate gears have no effect at all on the pitch or shaft speed, any more than a fabric belt linking two pulleys does. They merely transit the drive between the spindle gear and whatever gear is fitted to the leadscrew. An odd number of linking gears will preserve the rotation direction, that is the only effect.

On a belt drive the receiving shaft rotation direction is changed by twisting the belt through a half turn between the two pulleys, the pulleys will still have the same speed relationship one to the other.

Brian

 

Edited By Brian Wood on 21/12/2021 16:47:58

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

The gear shown in your pictures meshing with the gear on the mandrel is where the back Gear and shaft should be.

Study the Lathes UK pages that cover the Myford ML1, 2, 3, and 4. You will learn a lot from them..

The purpose of the Back Gear is to slow the speed of the mandrel.

It does this by moving into mesh with the gear at the rear of the mandrel.  The drive passes through the larger gear along the shaft to a smaller gear which meshes, when engaged with the gear on the Mandrel, just behind the bearing behind the chuck.

The Back Gear is engaged by a lever which rotates an eccentric bush causing the shaft to move so that the gears mesh with those on the Mandrel. In one of the grooves of the belt pulley there is a grubscrew, which under NON Back Gear use, locks the Pulley to the mandrel. When Back Gear is engaged, this grubscrew must be slackened, (preferably removed and put in a safe place until required again )

Failure to release / remove the grubscrew will lock everything, since you are effectively trying to drive through two different ratios. And that can't happen!.

Engaging Back Gear will reduce the Mandrel speed to about a sixth of the normal value.

Normally, the Changewheels will range from 20T to 65T, incrementing by 5T.

Having three 20T , and an extra 60T will enable you to set up a train giving a fine feed. 20: 60 / 2 : 65/20 : 60.

This should give a feed rate of 0.0043" per revolution of the chuck.

For screwcutting, if and when you choose to do that, you will have to set up a gear train to give the correct ratio between the Leadscrew and Mandrel to give the pitch that you want.

Brian Wood will the man to advise on how to go about this. (He has written a book about it! )

The pre Series 7 MLs had a few peculiarities, by more modern standards..

Because there was no Idler in the Apron between the Handwheel and the Pinion engaging with the Rack. Turning the Handwheel clockwise moves the Saddle TOWARDS the chuck, not away from it.

Also, to provide a power feed TOWARDS the chuck, two stages of reduction, or one and an Idler, are required (The Leadscxrew is 8 tpi, but Right Hand, rather than the Left Hand to which we are most accustomed. Hence the need for an idler, second Compound gear to ensure that the Leadscrew rotates in the correct direction.

Gears are compounded by linking them with 3/32" pins, in the same way that the Mandrel drives the first gear, and the t final gear drives the leadscrew.

The Cross Slide and Top Slide Leadscrews are 12 tpi, so each of the 80 divisions on the Handwheels are not exactly 0.001" (0.0010416667" according to my calculator ).

In M E W 310 there was an article on recommissioning a Myford ML4 which you may find helpful.

Howard

 

Edited By Howard Lewis on 22/12/2021 17:19:45

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

If extra changewheels cannot be obtained from somewhere for the ML 1,2, 3, or 4, gears for the 7 Series will fit. They are the same bore and width, but will need to be drilled to take the 3/32 driving pin

The technique means modifying one of the existing gears, by drilling the hole right through so that it can be used as jig to drill a hole into the "new" gears, when existing and "new" gears are mounted on one of the studs..

(The article in MEW 310 describes this method )

7 Series wheels are driven and compounded by a key and keyway, rather than the driving pins used on your machine…

Howard

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