My First Steam Layout

[DerekSParticipant @dereks]

I‘m new to model trains and I‘m on a steep learning curve for building that steam layout in the garden I‘ve always dreamed of. I think my most favoured gauge for this will be 3½ inch gauge. I would have liked to have built from scratch but I think that will be a step too far at my age so I’ll need to purchase the locos, etc. and put the creativity into building the layout instead. I’m a rabbit in the headlights at the moment so any advice on where to start will be appreciated (a broad topic I know).

I was also wondering if anyone knows of any model railway exhibitions / fairs in the UK that includes 3½ inch gauge, maybe also including engineering, construction, etc. There are the exhibitions in the Midlands in October and in London in January I’ll be going to of course but all others I found online appear to be for OO gauges and similar. Thanks.

[DerekSParticipant @dereks]

Where do I start?

[Nigel BennettParticipant @nigelbennett69913]

A few firms such as PNP Railways produce track items, and they do 3½"G track. I presume you are intending to have it as a ride-on-yourself arrangement rather than a "huge OO" arrangement.

There have been several articles in ME over the years about building ground-level tracks; Dennis Monk did a series that you could look out; enter his name in this index and you'll find a stack of information. Doug Hewson is another name worthy of attention.

https://www.itech.net.au/modelengineer/

You need a large garden to accommodate the necessary curves for a circular layout, or a long garden to make it worthwhile having an end-to-end.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Are you looking to produce something for you and the grandchildren to ride on or a scenic layout?

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Hi Derek, Nigel has touched on the size you will need to accomodate the radiuses and then there's the gradients. Do you realise what is involved in operating a steam engine ? There are several companies who can help you, a copy of Model Engineer will give some ideas. For 3.5" it might be worth joining a local ME club with a track, this will show you how things work Ect and much help may be available. Good Luck. Noel.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Derek,

Several decades ago, I used to be into 3.5" Narrow Gauge locos (Russel, Yeo, Conway etc) but eventually decided that any passenger-carrying stock was not going to be stable enough for a ground level railway. If I was planning to do this today, I would seriously consider building in 5" where there is already an active ground-level community and where the wider gauge is just a bit more practical for ground level passengers.

Of course, the type of loco you want to own will be a factor. If you want to run mainline express (big Pacifics etc) then 5" may be a hard to handle. Even in 3.5", I eventually decided that the larger N/G engines were heavier than I was going to be able to manage, so I made the decision to step down to 2.5" gauge (specifically Gauge 3)

BTW – the G3S publish a very good 80 page full colour book that has several very good articles on building ground level tracks and at £12 (inc UK postage) it's not too expensive. We've had people in other gauges buy them off our stand at exhibitions, as much of the information applies equally well to other scales & gauges. You can find details here: Gauge '3' Book

Regards,

IanT

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

I wish you all success!

However, do join a model-engineering society; for help and advice. It's quite an ambitious project you intend, and few model-engineers have railways in their garden, except perhaps a short, straight track on which to test their locomotives. They use club tracks instead.

You will need join a club anyway, for the boiler tests, if you intend driving your loco on any club track or public event; and the club does not (must not!) charge for the test as a commercial boiler-inspector would. There is no law to say you must have the boiler certified for private-only use, but it is obviously still wise for your own and your family's safety to test it by the current procedure. You can perform the physical test yourself, using the published handbook, but not certify it.

'

Driving and riding behind a 3-1/2" gauge locomotive, really needs a raised track. Although ground-level lines in 5" g, exist – Doug Hewson's Gilling layout is one such par excellence – that is really the minimum for ground-level railways, and suited only to experienced drivers and passengers. You can build a dual-gauge ground-level line with the larger 7-1/4" gauge used for the rolling-stock for stability, but driving a 3-1/4" gauge loco like that would be very difficult and uncomfortable. Even driving a 5" g. loco on ground-level lines is not easy, physically, unless you are fairly short and very supple.

I do not know if it still in print, but Martin Evan's (the previous ME editor of those shared initials) Manual Of Model Steam Locomotive Construction gives a very good outline of what is involved in making and driving a live-steam miniature locomotive. It also informs you of minimum track bend radii for the different gauges.

There are other books on the subject that may be more readily available now – try exploring TEE Publishing's stock-list.

These will also help you choose what locomotive to build, assuming that is your aim and you have or are creating a suitable workshop.

There are a number of design available in 3.25" gauge suitable for a first attempt, but I would go for something a little larger than LBSC's 'Tich' its designer touted as a suitable introductory project. His 'Juliet' would the better choice: not much larger, not intrinsically more difficult to make, but probably easier to drive. Other readers will no doubt suggest appropriate alternatives – my own field is more 7.25" gauge railway, and road steam vehicles.

Live-steam miniatures are not off-the-shelf items, unless the well-tried and popular 'Polly' range includes complete 3.5" gauge locos. Buying one second-hand really does need you knowing what to look for, and experienced guidance.

….

Regarding exhibitions, go to the Model Engineering, not Railway, shows. (Some, such as Harrogate this year did, include both hobbies to differing extents.)

As well as the major shows, peruse the Club Diary section of Model Engineer to see what public club exhibitions and running days are readily available to you. In fact attending a few running-days is likely to be at least as informative as the exhibitions, where the locos are simply sitting quietly on a table.

…

Without revealing your location too closely, if you tell us your area you may find others here can suggest a model-engineering society or two sensibly near you, and likely to match your wishes. Note that not all have 3.25" gauge railways, though, even if they accommodate the other gauges. (Mine doesn't: it has 5" and 7.25" GL, plus a 16mm-scale, circuits.)

It can be difficult introducing yourself to a society. I would expect most are welcoming, some perhaps more than others but it does depend on whom you first meet; and on a public running-day you should meet more than the two or three at a time manning an exhibition club-stand.

You do hear anecdotes about such-and-such club being an isolationist clique, but these boil down to one person meeting one or two crabby old members who do not realise the harm they do. Or to the applicant of course!

These comments apply in general to any interest, not just model-engineering.

…

Good Luck!

[Dave WoottonParticipant @davewootton]

Some very sound advice in the earlier replies, there is/was a Martin Evans book available some years ago on constructing an outdoor model railway, published then by the old Model Aeronautical Press it should be possible to obtain a secondhand copy.

One thing to bear in mind irrespective of the gauge of loco you have, and assuming you wish to ride behind, is the difficulty of balancing on a 3 1/2" gauge driving truck. The late Ted Benn had a test track in his garden only about 60feet of dual 2 1/2"/ 3 1/2" gauge it was great fun, but always felt a little precarious and there were several derailments, fortunately none serious. A dual gauge line with a 5" rail would be a lot more stable especially if carrying children many of whom find it difficult to sit stll! That said many of the earlier passenger railways were 3 1/2" gauge notably LBSC's own polar route and Noel VanRaalte's line at Burseldon.

Worth visiting as many lines as you can to help fix in your mind what you actually want and need, and I'd second the recommendation to join a club if possible. I particularly like the smaller gauges, I've built and still have 5" gauge ones, but my favourite is still my little Rob Roy, which has been run to death and needs a new boiler, but it's easy to transport , more difficult to fire than larger engines, but if we're both having a good day it's great fun.

Good luck with the project and if you go ahead please post on your progress, i'm sure there would be a lot of interest.

Dave

Just had a google and the book is still available new from Amazon and others, Outdoor Model Railways by Martin Evans, there were a couple of other in print books came up as well which might be aimed at the more scenic smaller gauges but I'm sure many of the principles would be adaptable, and provide food for thought.

Edited By Dave Wootton on 02/05/2023 15:16:07

[DerekSParticipant @dereks]

Wow, many thanks to everyone for the excellent responses and for all the tips, advice and book recommendations.
My intention is for a scenic, ground level 3½ inch gauge layout which I don't intend to ride on. What is the point of that you may ask. Well for one thing, it won't be raised up on trestles and there would be some difficulty negotiating the tunnel and crossing the bridge without it collapsing. It also means that there won’t be any issues with stability, etc. These are just ideas at the moment and project is only at the feasibility stage.
No, I don't have any idea about what is involved in operating a steam engine. It will be part of the overall learning curve and although it may be temperamental, require lots of tweaking and tlc, I think it's all part of the attraction (along with all the maintenance of rolling stock, track and scenery).
I'm pleased that there is a local ME club on the Isle of Wight which has ‘in house’ Boiler Inspectors. I'll have to go along to an open day when the project has passed the feasibility stage. Yes, it's difficult introducing myself to a society because I had a bad experience joining the local model flying club in the 90s. Basically, it became obvious they didn't want any more members but they wanted the subs. After joining I was completely ignored by everyone and left to my own devices and I still suspect the guy crashed my plane deliberately. I'm sure the IoW ME Club isn't like that.
I don't intend building the locos, I would have loved to at one time but considering the extremely steep learning curve, the tooling up costs and the experience required, I think it will be a step too far to start at my age (63). So I will need to purchase all the rolling stock if that is feasible, probably second hand which is a bit daunting as a nube. If loco kits exist in 3½ inch gauge, that may be the next best thing! I favour a Polly / Rob Roy loco at the moment.
Yes, if it all goes ahead I will endeavour to post on the progress.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

OK, since it is not to ride on look at Gauge 3 or Gauge 1. Not only cheaper but you can get the curves into a garden smaller than Buckingham Palace. G1 especially has a strong following, many private tracks and an increasing number at ME clubs too. Both have supportive associations.

I'm sorry to hear you had a bad experience at a club but ME clubs are very different from flying clubs. I have dropped in on clubs in three continents and always been made welcome. Just last Tuesday I visited Perranporth, 250 miles from my usual club and was invited to return some time with my loco. You really should go along before you start work to benefit from their experienced members.

Finally at 63 you are 40 years younger than our oldest member at St Albans so have plenty of time to think about things before you start building your loco.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

You'll find a lot of the G1 and smaller live-steam locos are gas-fired and radio-controlled; and in these smaller scale their railways not only fit a domestic garden more easily, you've plenty of scope for the landscaping. A good deal of this aspect of the hobby is skewed heavily towards narrow-gauge rather than Standard Gauge appearance, and ready-to-run locos are available commercially – though expensively.

Some clubs have raised tracks for these locomotives and rolling-stock, which are not passenger-hauling, and such tracks are often built simply as running circuits with no decoration.

Radio-control may be feasible in 3.5" gauge – and indeed you could still coal-fire it but then watching the water-level becomes more problematical with a loco ambling round under remote-control, because you can't see the water-gauge so readily, and with solid fuel you can't just turn off the fuel tap.

Do though find out about steam locomotives and their operation in more detail before taking the plunge.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

If you are thinking "Scenic" (e.g. a Garden Railway) Derek – then (again) I would not really recommned 3.5" Gauge – there is not too much 'stuff' available outside of the engines…

It really does depend on what interests you but if it's British Standard Gauge (and live steam) then as Baz says, it's going to be Gauge 1 or Gauge 3 and as you may have already gathered, I choose the later.

If you want to model American or European Railways then it's probably going to be some form of 'G' Scale (there are various scales that all run on 45mm track)

If you are interested in Narrow Gauge railways, then it will be '16mm' on either 32 or 45mm track.

However, given that you are interested in scenic, then I would suggest again that the G3 book would be very useful to you. It has a lot of useful info for anyone thinking about building a Garden Railway, whatever scale or gauge you eventually choose.

Gauge '3' Society

Regards,

IanT

[DerekSParticipant @dereks]

Thanks Bazyle. 3½ inch gauge looked to be the ideal size for live steam with 2½ inch gauge being on the small side and 5" being a bit too big. The different scale standards are quite complicated but as far as I can see, the gauge of G1 is only 1.75" and G3 is 2.5". Smaller than I had planned but I can look into G3 further if I can’t achieve the bend radii with 3½ inch gauge. It appears that G3 loco kits are more readily available.

Yes I will be going along to the local ME club after the project has passed the feasibility and before I start work on anything.

It may be possible for me to start on building a loco from scratch but considering the time it will take to tool up the workshop with lathes, pillar drills, etc, started out on simple stuff to learn basics and progressed to locos, it will be many years before I‘ll be able to produce anything. Maybe by the time I‘m 70, just in time before I move into the care home 😊.

[DerekSParticipant @dereks]

Thanks Nigel and IanT, I do plan to radio control the locos and maybe have a video feed from the front. It won’t be a very long track around the garden so I’m assuming I will get to know how quickly the water level drops. Coal fired is favourable if only to achieve the right smell.

I will look into G3 but I don’t know what you mean about there being not too much 'stuff' available outside of the engines on 3½ inch gauge. Are you talking about signals, sheds, stations, etc? If so, I was planning to make those kind of things from scratch myself. I think that is a more realistic goal than trying to construct the locos from scratch.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Derek,

It really helps if there is plenty of choice in terms of both 'lineside' accessories and rolling stock but it goes a bit beyond that. I remember that when I started out in G3 there was very little support from the trade. As an example you could get a few wagon parts but nearly all in white metal (that I wasn't too keen on) so I hacked out the W-Irons from sheet metal for my first wagon. 

These days there is much more support with a wide range of kits and components that use castings, laser-cut metal and wooden parts, resin casts and 3D prints from Traders such as Mike Williams ( see Williams Models  ) There are also new folk offering Gauge 3, with Barrett moving their G1 designs up-scale (see G3 Barrett Live Steam  . In terms of linside, G3 has always been pretty close to LGB in scale terms, so lot's of commercial stuff there but these days you can get Signal Boxes and other UK style building from folk like Kippo ( see Kippo buildings  ) – and it all adds up – even if you want to make stuff yourself.  I think you will discover that life is too short (even at 63!).

So in summary, I don't think 3.5" 'Scenic' is going to be a very easy route for you. I get that you would like a good sized (e.g. large) railway – well in scenic terms – that's Gauge 3!

Regards,

IanT

 

Edited By IanT on 03/05/2023 08:58:55

Edited By IanT on 03/05/2023 08:59:46 Damned unwanted smilies!

Edited By IanT on 03/05/2023 09:00:46

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Coal fired live steam is possible in G1 (eg the Black 5 'Doris' design).
You want about 18ft radius for 3 1/2" minimum unless you go for 0-4-0 locos.
Some of the LGB 45mm track pushes the envelope with wide flanges and I think can go down to 2ft radius,

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Coal fired live steam is possible in G1 (eg the Black 5 'Doris' design).
You want about 18ft radius for 3 1/2" minimum unless you go for 0-4-0 locos.
Some of the LGB 45mm track pushes the envelope with wide flanges and I think can go down to 2ft radius,

[MichaelRParticipant @michaelr]

For a small live steam garden railway Gauge 1 are the ideal size IMO, however this Link will take you to a radio controlled 5" gauge Black 5 although much larger than 31/2" gauge it gives a idea what can be done

MichaelR.

 

 

Edited By MichaelR on 03/05/2023 16:11:31

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Derek,

I've been out in the garden today mostly putting up trellis work (at my Managers 'request' ) . It was a very nice day and would have been ideal for a GTG. I was mulling over this thread as I augered the post holes, something I have to do in short bursts these days, as (like one of my engines) I'm a bit short of puff. Anyway some musings…

Whilst a 5" engine is just twice the gauge of a 2.5" one – it is also twice the length, width and height, so eight times the volume. With that increased volume also comes a very large increase in weight – making handling and transport a lot more of a challenge (especially with age). A 3.5" engine is somewhere in between but still heavy.

I've always felt however that the bigger challenge is the larger boiler. I can build a G3 boiler but I don't think I could do a large 5" one, which would therefore be a lot more expensive – not only in the copper – but also in someone else's paid time. Another small detail with regards to G3 boilers. Last weekend I did annual steam tests on five G3 engines and only one (a Britannia) was above 3 Bar/ltr and will need a repeat hydralic test next year. The others won't – just the steam test annually, a small thing but it does make life easier for the owner.

The issue of 'Ground' level track or 'Raised' level track is clearly a matter of personal preference but I'd suggest that there is a very important aspect to consider. If you go to all the trouble (and expense) of building a garden railway, then I'm very certain that part of the pleasure of owning that garden railway will be in sharing it with others. My point here is that those 'others' are probably mostly going to be 'getting on'. They may be able to get down but can they get up afterwards? Live steam engines need a lot of attention.

I thought about two of our G3 GTG venues. This one is set very nicely in the garden and is ground level at the back and raised a little at the front. What may not be so obvious however, is the chest-level steaming bay at the side of the house which makes engine preparation much easier. Tenterden – Ground Level

Then there is the raised track approach as seen here Thurnby – Raised Track Note the engine prep that's going on and (as these are engines are mostly not R/C controlled) the 'interventions' going on too. Just because you don't get pulled around the track, doesn't mean you don't drive the loco. We do have R/C of course but many members prefer the 'hands-on' approach.

Btw – One of the guys talking on this video is Alan (one of our founding members from 1990) who has very sadly passed away since the video was made. A lovely bloke and very skilled model engineer, he's much missed by all of us. 

Finally, just watch that opening shot in the second video again. I have to say that it doesn't make me think that G3 is "a bit small" – it's very far from that!    

Regards,

 

IanT

 

Edited By IanT on 03/05/2023 22:24:54

[DerekSParticipant @dereks]

Many thanks folks. I think 5 inch gauge will be too big and I have to say that I‘m still drawn to a 3½ inch gauge, ground level railway which may be raised in areas such as viaducts and bridges and where some levelling is needed. Riding on behind may become tricky when it comes to the tunnels and cut throughs. Besides, I don’t think there will be room to have enough clearance around the track over its entire length to enable anyone to ride on it. At the end of the day, the gauge may depend on what rolling stock is available in 3½ inch gauge. I tried Googling it and found very little, maybe scale wagons an coaches don’t exist in 3½ inch gauge because it‘s only ever used for riding behind.

I just had a response from the Steam Workshop (https://www.steamworkshop.co.uk) saying that 3½ inch gauge wagons and coaches are very rare, they don’t have any in stock and they don’t know where I would be able to find any.

Edited By DerekS on 04/05/2023 00:13:16

Edited By DerekS on 04/05/2023 00:14:35

[vic francisParticipant @vicfrancis]

Hi Derek sent you a pm here.

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