My first foray into clock repair

[Bodger BrianParticipant @bodgerbrian]

I recently ‘re-discovered’ a clock in my loft that I had been given by my father many years ago. I know nothing about it apart from the fact that it hasn’t run for probably 30 years or so. I’d like to get it going properly again (currently it goes for a couple of minutes before coming to a halt) but having no practical experience of clock maintenance or repair, I’m going to need a lot of help.

I have many questions but to start with :-

Can anybody identify it from the photo? There is a pediment to the case which has been broken off, as well as a lower equivalent. I’m assuming it’s mass produced but even a rough date/age would be nice.

How is the movement held in the case? There are 4 screws holding the backplate to the case, two of which are accessible but the other two are not. There are 2 knurled ‘thumbscrews’ (not sure that’s the right term) at the lower edge of the face which when loosened allow the movement to pivot backwards slightly. I haven’t undone them totally yet but am I right in assuming that is the way it’s done?

Both the outer white ring & the inner part of the face, which seems to have a sort of ‘sparkle’ finish, are quite tarnished. How easy would it be to clean these?

Any advice / helpful words would be much appreciated.

Brian

Edited By Bodger Brian on 16/10/2017 21:55:32

Edited By Bodger Brian on 16/10/2017 21:57:18

[Bodger BrianParticipant @bodgerbrian]

I

[Fowlers FuryParticipant @fowlersfury]

There'll be no shortage of advice on offer here !

But I'd recommend you get a book on the subject and learn at your own pace. Donald de Carle was one of the best authors IMHO and his old book "Clock & Watch Repairing" should be available on-line. It was first published in 1959, my copy is a 1996 reprint. ISBN 0 7091 9436 6. It's showing now on Amazon:-

**LINK**

Alternatively if you Google "horology course on line free" you will find some useful material.

Your clock should be OK but probably in need of a strip-down and clean. It is of a quite common type.

As for cleaning the face, be very cautious. I'd suggest you try some cotton buds and saliva ! It can be surprisingly effective. Certainly don't use any proprietary metal polishes.

[brickyParticipant @bricky]

The clock was made in germany mid to late 19th c .the two knurled screws will release the movement from the backplate.Their production declined after the american mass produced clocks flooded the market.They were often refered to as regulators which they are not.

Frank

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

I'll second the book suggestion from FF. I got a book from the library and it was carp, but this one seems much more useful. Question might be: Was it running when you got it? If so, a clean and oil would likely solve the problem. They can be touchy regarding levelling and possibly simply 'out of beat' – does it go tick-tock evenly while running?

The experts will be along,

given time. (Pun intended)

[Stephen BensonParticipant @stephenbenson75261]

This site is brilliant for a beginner

mb.nawcc.org/

Some of the information is contradictory but you find that in clock repair books as well

[MonomanParticipant @monoman]

I have on our sitting room wall a very similar clock which was my father's. He had it from the 1920.s when it was in my Grandmother;s house.

It runs perfectly since it was serviced by a clockmaker in Kent about 20 years ago. As in the example in the OPs pictures the very decorative (?) pieces on the top and bottom are missing. But they modern re-makes are available, we never got them as they are very Victorian, or perhaps Black Forest in character.

Our old time local clockmaker in Notts showed us the German makers original catalogue which had photographs of our clock and all the similar ones available at that time. Although I would not want to let go of my clock he estimated the current value around £350 in working condition. I had only taken it to him for him to show me the correct way to synchronise the striking with the time.

It strikes the number of hours with a single strike at the halves. I regard it as something to remember my father by. He kept it working and I remember it was always 5 (or was it 10) minutes fast.

Both the strikes are loud enough to hear throughout the house, especially when I'm trying to get to sleep.

Jerry

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Be careful what you mess with

Someone I know has a clock on the wall with a German movement, it was a wedding present about 1950 and a knowledgeable visitor told her it was worth at least 1000 bananas (because of the movement)

Edited By Ady1 on 17/10/2017 09:13:55

[roy entwistleParticipant @royentwistle24699]

Brian When you get the movement out of the case. Please make sure that the movement is not wound up before doing anything else.

For a start I would wash all pivots with lighter fuel and also any oily parts that you can see. Then it wants the pivots re oiling with a very light oil ( they make oil specially for clocks ). Also when you remove the movement from the case be very careful that you don't damage the suspension spring that the pendulum hangs on. This might already be damaged if the clock has been moved about with the pendulum still attached. again these can be bought.

Check More and Passmore websight.

No connection just a very happy user

Roy

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

At first glance it ooks like a Vienna regulatoror Vienna wall clock as far as I can see. Should have 2 weights. Many of them had Eagles on the top of the case when new but most of these were removed when the war broke out for obvious reasons and were subsequently lost. However it is somewhat 'crude' as there is no seconds dial, degree plate on in back panel for the pendulum and the case looks a little plain. It's still a nice clock though.

Have a google for Vienna regulator for more information.

As far as initial running attemps. as has already been suggested clock oil the oil sinks at the ends of the wheel arbors and adjustment of the beat achieved by moving the crutch (the lever between the escapement and the pendulum rod) so that the beat is even will probably bring it to life.

regards Martin

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by roy entwistle on 17/10/2017 09:42:07:

Check More and Passmore websight.

I think you mean Meadows and Passmore

Russell

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by roy entwistle on 17/10/2017 09:42:07:

Brian When you get the movement out of the case. Please make sure that the movement is not wound up before doing anything else.

Perhaps that needs a little explanation. If you start to dismantle it with the springs wound the not inconsiderable energy stored in the springs will be released suddenly and may cause damage to parts of the clock as well as to your fingers.

To release that energy in a controlled manner you need to get at the ratchet pawls. Best to remove the dial but first you will need to remove the hands. They are fixed in place by a clock pin (a small taper pin) in the centre. Remove that and both hands should pull off. The dial will probably be held to the front plate by three or four pillars with either nuts or pins.

Having removed the dial you should see a ratchet wheel on each winder. You will have to use the winding key to hold the spring force to enable you to move the pawl back and release the ratchet. Don't let go of the key but allow it to rotate backwards while controlling it. You can do it a bit at a time allowing the pawl to return to hold it while repositioning your hands. You will find it much easier if you have three hands!

Once the springs are unwound fully you can think about dismantling and cleaning.

Russell

[Fowlers FuryParticipant @fowlersfury]

If you find you've opened Pandora's Box by asking for advice ~ then since you state the clock will run for a couple of minutes then stop, it's possible that "non-clock" oil was once used to lubricate it. Over the "30 years or so" it will have oxidised and gummed up the works. So you'll do no harm if you first remove the clock from the case works and follow Roy's advice but try before dismantling the parts.

Using an artist's brush, flood the holes in the plates where the pivots fit with – as suggested above – lighter fuel (naptha). You might find there is a hole on the 2 spring cases, if so run some solvent in there also. Don't then use any other lubricant. If it still stops after a couple of minutes once you've followed the important advice to ensure an even "tick & tock" then you'll need to investigate further. If you do decide on a full scale dismantling take as many photos of the assembly as you can beforehand.

Nice lookiing Staffordshire by the way !

[Bodger BrianParticipant @bodgerbrian]

Wow – what a response. Thanks one & all!

Just a few observations from the comments & suggestions….

To those that suggested a books to buy or websites to visit, you pre-empted one of my next questions.

Although I said the pediment & a couple of other case parts had broken off, I do have them and one of my aims is to clean & restore that as well.

I had noticed when I first tried to get it going that the 'beat' was very uneven & making sure it was more upright improved things no end.

Thanks for the warning about the suspension spring. It may be too late but I shall soon find out.

Taking everything on board, I think my initial strategy will be to remove the movement, clean (if necessary) any gunk from the pivot holes, re-lubricate, then hang on a temporary back plate which I can adjust for a true vertical position and see if that does the trick.

It may be obvious to those who have done it but is cleaning the gunk out of the pivot holes with lighter fluid something that can be done without dismantling the movement?

Thanks again & sorry for not mentioning anyone by name but I thought it better to reply this way rather than replying to each individual posting.

There are bound to be more questions to come…

Brian

Edited By Bodger Brian on 17/10/2017 13:57:17

[roy entwistleParticipant @royentwistle24699]

Brian Yes you can remove the gunk from the pivots without dismantling use a small artist type paint brush or even a birds wing or tail feather. Whatever you do, DO NOT use WD40

Keep us informed

Roy

[MonomanParticipant @monoman]

Brian,

Please see my note above from this morning. I am pretty sure your clock is almost identical to mine.

Tomorrow I will hope to put up a picture of mine. It would seem sensible to suggest that you first determine whether your clock has the necessary components to support weights. Please see one of the clock parts suppliers such as HS Walsh or Cousins for some pictures of the various types of movements. I do not think I have seen a Vienna Regulator clock without weights On the matter of price, I think it unlikely your father would have given you his without an accompanying suggestion of its value if it is a Vienna. You might also have 3 winding holes on the dial.

The clock I have is totally driven by springs, for the time and for the striker.

I have done my homework on my clock to establish its provenance. That does not have the same meaning as you might hear used on 'Antiques Roadshow'.

The clock came from a house in East London, in either Bethnal Green or Shoreditch. Unfortunately as the East End was heavily bombed in WWII my father was unable whilst he was alive to show me where it came from. I think it unlikely anyone whose home was in that area in the 1920s could have afforded an expensive clock, but there were many small clock & watch retailers who may have carried these in their stock.

These clocks were mass produced in Germany and are known in the trade as Black Forest clocks. The movement is very simple and, although it has a compensating pendulum, it takes some patience over the changing seasons to keep it running to time. As you have already discovered the clock needs to be hung absolutely upright in the X, Y and Z planes. Our house has flat walls against which it is happy to live, but eventually I marked the wall to ensure the side-to-side level. As you have seen on yours the movement is adjustable in the fore&aft direction

The pendulum on your clock, whilst unlike mine in appearance has the same adjusting screw ( very sensitive) and an identical 3-hook hanger. I found it impossible to engage the hook other than in its correct position.

I hope this will help you to decide what sort of clock you own.

Jerry

Edited By Monoman on 17/10/2017 15:24:52

[Fowlers FuryParticipant @fowlersfury]

You ask "……is cleaning the gunk out of the pivot holes with lighter fluid something that can be done without dismantling the movement?"

The answer is – like to most questions – it depends what you mean by…… in this case ~ "cleaning".

The only effective way to thoroughly clean out pivot holes is to dismantle and then repeatedly rotate some sharpened pegwood which has been dipped in a volatile solvent until the pegwood shows no trace of "gunk". (Pegwood is a special soft wood available from suppliers).

However as you'll have read in my & "Roy's" 2nd posts, it's worth trying first without dismantling especially as you've no experience yet of all the inevitable aggravation of a total strip-down to each and every component. You've nothing to lose by experimenting.

The books will tell you there's seldom one simple reason why a clock won't continue to run. Yet my patience was pushed to extremes trying to identify why an English Longcase always stopped after about 30 minutes. I'd done all the cleaning and checking according to the approved methods. Eventually I discovered a tiny burr on one tooth of a brass wheel was the cause.

[HacksawParticipant @hacksaw]

I've got one too…hideous noisy thing but does keep good time

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

If I can add a thought … ? I would leave any attempt at cleaning the dial itself until you have been able to get advice from an expert who has seen your clock. Otherwise you risk destroying a finish which is difficult to repair or renew. Old clocks, like old bronze sculpture, become coated in a patina, (which may look to novice eyes like corrosion) and sooner or later someone will ask why you haven't got it all nice and shiny. Resist the temptation.

In any event there may be plenty to do with the working parts, and no point in going further until it runs well.

We have a larger version of the same sort of clock, but weight-driven and with a wooden stem to the pendulum. It also has what looks like a seconds dial, but the hand goes round in 3/4 of a minute, as the pendulum is not long enough to beat seconds. It was Grandma's for 70 years and she never noticed …

Regards, Tim

[brickyParticipant @bricky]

Not only do you have to move sideways to get it in beat, before any radical treatment try packing it of the wall at the base,this might get it to run alteratively at the top of the case.The wall could be out of plumb .This works on mine.The clock is not a vienese regulator but Tim's is.

Frank

[Bodger BrianParticipant @bodgerbrian]

Further progress…

I took the movement out of the case and sat it on a stool while I closed the case. Lo & behold, it started ticking away all by itself. Admittedly it was going too fast but I suppose that's only to be expected when there's no pendulum attached!

Looking at the back of the movement, there appears to my inexperienced eye to be no significant gunk in the pivots, so my thought process now is that a little oiling may be all that is required. (The brighter metal finish around the pivots is not my work).

I've also laid out the broken-off case parts to remind me what it should look like.

Tim – I appreciate your comment about cleaning the dial. Is the earlier suggestion of cotton buds & saliva too risky in your opinion?

On a similar note, there is a bit of a ding in the rear edge of the face bezel, which isn't visible when the movement is in the case. I think I'll let that be & not try to straighten it.

Brian

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

No, cotton buds and good ole fashioned spit should do no harm, but keep the cotton away from the inner workings. Fluff is not going to improve things.

The shiny bits around the pivots are where the oil has spread and kept the surface free of corrosion. A good sign, as it proves there was some oil in there. What there is now is likely to be a mix of old oil, oxidized oil (gum, varnish) and dust. The case will have kept much of the dust away (much better than long-case clocks), but the gritty dust is still there, waiting to have oil added to turn it into fine grinding paste. That is why it is recommended, at this stage, to separate the parts and clean away all residues. You could do worse than getting a pack of cocktail cherry picks, if the complication of getting the proper horological cleaning kit is a step too far. it shouldn't be – the clock won't need attention for 20 years if you do the job right. And if you want to do it the 'best' way, try 'pegwood' on the web. Remember that all you are hoping to do is to clean off the gunge. A search on 'clock oiler' should bring up a source for the step after assembly.

Regards, Tim

Edited By Tim Stevens on 18/10/2017 14:53:06

[Bodger BrianParticipant @bodgerbrian]

Posted by Tim Stevens on 18/10/2017 14:42:43:

No, cotton buds and good ole fashioned spit should do no harm, but keep the cotton away from the inner workings. Fluff is not going to improve things.

The shiny bits around the pivots are where the oil has spread and kept the surface free of corrosion. A good sign, as it proves there was some oil in there. What there is now is likely to be a mix of old oil, oxidized oil (gum, varnish) and dust. The case will have kept much of the dust away (much better than long-case clocks), but the gritty dust is still there, waiting to have oil added to turn it into fine grinding paste. That is why it is recommended, at this stage, to separate the parts and clean away all residues. You could do worse than getting a pack of cocktail cherry picks, if the complication of getting the proper horological cleaning kit is a step too far. it shouldn't be – the clock won't need attention for 20 years if you do the job right. And if you want to do it the 'best' way, try 'pegwood' on the web. Remember that all you are hoping to do is to clean off the gunge. A search on 'clock oiler' should bring up a source for the step after assembly.

Just to be clear – you're suggesting that I dismantle the movement prior to cleaning? That sounds a very sensible approach & one that I was sort of prepared for when I commenced this exercise. I'm just slightly apprehensive that I might create more problems than I'm solving. On the other hand, if I don't, it looks like I could be doing damage in the long term if I run it uncleaned.

Brian

[Bodger BrianParticipant @bodgerbrian]

Posted by Fowlers Fury on 17/10/2017 11:47:55:

Nice lookiing Staffordshire by the way !

I don't want to de-rail this thread too much, but that is the late and much-missed Jess. I've always thought that she was auditioning for the role of Gromit's stunt-double when that photo was taken.

Brian

[Fowlers FuryParticipant @fowlersfury]

Brian, firstly apologies the awful diagram below but I musn't disregard copyright by reproducing one from a book.

Furthermore, this will probably incite others' condemnation but with respect to "I dismantle the movement prior to cleaning? " and "I might create more problems than I'm solving. On the other hand, if I don't, it looks like I could be doing damage in the long term if I run it uncleaned". It's perhaps worthwhile offering how pivots are supposed to be installed in a good clock. There should be a concave cut in the outer face where the pivot end emerges. This is to retain clock oil. A broach should then have been used from the other side to produce an tapered hole. The result is that the (hardened) pivot is supported only by a thin plane of the the brass plate..Accordingly there ought to be no "long parallel hole" through which the pivot turns and thus brushing some solvent onto both sides of the plate should (might?) remove any old oxidised oil – shown in red below. Clock mechanisms are pretty robust and "…doing damage in the long term if I run it uncleaned" is very unlikely especially one encased. I would suggest you try the easy way first. As before. you've nothing to lose but half an hour's work.

If you've not completely dismantled and reassembled a clock before, the lengthy process is quite a challenge though rewarding if the clock could not otherwise be made to run.

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