Motorcycle General Discussion

[bernard towers]

On bernard towers Said:

So would you think that a system with a 3 brush generator would be intelligent enough?

I am pretty sure a 3-brush system, combined with the vibration and heat of a vintage motorbike, would completely destroy a lithium-ion battery, if it is anything like my 1942 WLA Harley. (Pretty much same system as Indian.)

I have never used lithium-ion but plenty in my circle of biking friends have and failures are legion, even on modern bikes. They do not seem to be able to handle vibration and heat well at all.

And the 3-brush system as used by Harley et al has no regulator at all. Only a cutout switch that does not regulate either volts or amps. The generator relies on positioning the 3rd brush to manually to set the maximum output and hope for the best. Originally this system relied on excess current boiling away the electrolyte in the large wet-cell battery to get rid of the excess energy. Manual says to top the battery up every week for this reason.

As the original large wet cell batteries are no longer available where I live, and apparently the latest versions available in the USA are poorly made in China and fail frequently, I have gone to using sealed AGM batteries often used in commercial building fire alarms and UPS’s etc. But even these have given trouble swelling up and failing due to over charging even with the  3rd brush in the lowest output setting. A check found voltage spikes of up to 17 volts coming out of the 6-volt generator!

In the end I have gone to using a solid state V-tronic voltage regulator from Samwell Supplies in the USA. https://www.samsup.com/product/regulator-electronic6v-or-relay-style-no-cover-for-2-brush-generator-only/

With this regulator, the output is a dead steady 7.2 volts and so far the small AGM batteries have survived without the incessant failures of the past few years. You do have to change the internal wiring of the generator to a 2-brush configuration though. The regulator fits inside the original cutout switch housing so is not visible at all. Looks all original.

So, if you have found an ordinary non-lithium ion battery that actually works and survived since 2015 with your 3-brush system, I would stick with that.

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

THanks for that Hopper it looks like ill stay with what ive got it seems to manage alright and I’m on 12volt not 6volt to cope with the electric starter ive fitted.

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

When it comes to AGM batteries it’s important to remember that they can’t be recovered from deep discharge. As my friend Rodney found out when he put a nice new one on his “poxy MZ” without noticing that there was a small electrical current leak somewhere in the system. 3 months later battery was totally flat and unrecoverable. Somewhen I shall have to dig out my electricians hat and find the fault.

Need to be a bit careful charging AGM batteries too. Especially the small motorcycle ones as they don’t like over voltage. If I need to top up the AGM batteries on my Norton Commander and Yamaha GTS it just put them on for an hour or two to ensure there is enough oomph to start  the machine so teh bike system can take over.

Clive

[bernard towers]

On bernard towers Said:

THanks for that Hopper it looks like ill stay with what ive got it seems to manage alright and I’m on 12volt not 6volt to cope with the electric starter ive fitted.

Yes stick with what works! I think if you have converted to 12 volt it would now be a two-brush with regulator set-up? Bit of a different ballgame but I would still avoid the Li-ion batteries in high vibration and heat environment.

Twelve volt solves many problems, even without e-start, with modern electronic regulators readily available that are more compatible with today’s more fragile batteries, and a much larger range of battery sizes and types available in 12 volt. It is becoming a common conversion on the old 6v Harleys around here. And you get a headlight that  actually illuminates the road!

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

PS, as far as 12 volt batteries suitable for electric start bikes, I have had my share of problems with some of them too, namely the cheaper brands. Chinese brands such as SSB (Super Sport Battery) have left me stranded with sudden and total failure on my 1995 Harley Road King. Complete open circuit inside the battery when internal connectors between the cells break. (Vibration again!)  Others have lasted barely longer than the 12 month warranty period.

These days I will not fit anything except the more expensive AGM brands: Yuasa, Motobatt and Deka. They seem to stand up to old-tech bikes where the budget brands won’t. Of the bunch, Motobatt seem to be the best value for money. Good batteries but reasonable price. Yuasa are excellent, probably the best,  but as dear as poison. Deka are what HD fits standard in the factory under their own label and are very good but seemed to get expensive a couple years ago then became hard to find.

Of course, that is here in Australia. UK market, I have no idea. But basically you get what you pay for! And in my experience it is well worth paying the extra to avoid being stranded on the side of the road. Only time in my 50 years of biking I have ever had to trailer a bike home was when the Road King’s budget SSB battery failed totally without warning. An experience i wish to never repeat. Luckily all the other cheapies died at home parked in the shed (despite smart trickle chargers etc.) Still annoying but no public humiliation attached!

[FulmenParticipant @fulmen]

I’ve had very good luck with budget brand gel batteries. In the past I used cheap flooded cells, but they wouldn’t last more than a year or two before loosing power. Gel batteries seem to last 2-3times longer.

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

The Motorbat AGM battery I have at the moment has been on the bike since May 2015 hence my concern that it may soon go.

[FulmenParticipant @fulmen]

Yeah, they do fail eventually. And not always gradually.

[bernard towers]

On bernard towers Said:

The Motorbat AGM battery I have at the moment has been on the bike since May 2015 hence my concern that it may soon go.

Nine years! Even for a Motobatt, that is a phenomenal run! Yes it might be on borrowed time.

I bought myself a $25 battery load tester off Fleabay that seems to give a reliable indication of battery condition. It is about the size of a pack of cigarettes and puts a load on the battery and gives a readout on state of charge and state of health, plus you can do an actual start of the vehicle and it shows what the voltage drops to, indicating battery wellbeing also. With 2 sheds full of bikes, batteries are the bane of my existence so the tester was money well spent for me.

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

I wonder if the happy Motobatt users are on bikes with minimal load electrical systems i.e. no electric starter. My sole experience of one of these on a Honda VTR1000 was that it was unable to start the bike from cold – Ok after the bike had been started with the aid of a slave battery & warmed through, but insufficient CCA capacity to get things going. Seller wouldn’t refund, but offered a substantial discount on a supposedly top spec Yuasa – that didn’t last long either. Eventually discussed this with the Honda dealer & found (very much to my suprise) that an OEM spec Yuasa from Honda was cheaper than the aftermarket Yuasa & that sorted the battery woes with that bike.

Battery quality does seem to be declining though. I used to get 5-7 years from a Bosch or Varta battery on Mrs B’s R65LS (which she bought at 6 months old in January 1987 – so it has seen a number of batteries). The last Varta died at 2 years old. A “no-name” Ebay gel battery was tried instead last year – the first one was DOA. The seller was OK to deal with, sent out a replacement without quibble & that is bearing up OK – for now. OEM spec batteries do seem to be better in terms of life expectancy than aftermarket replacements – both my RE Interceptor 650 & Mrs. B’s MG V7 Classic are over 5 years old now & both are still on the OEM batteries. Neither seems to take much time to show charged when I rotate the Accumate on to them over the winter, unlike the “new last year” wet Bosch replacement on the RE Classic 500, which seems to loose quite a lot between top uips.

My MZ will be on a generic Chinese wet battery when it returns to the road. The Sonnenschein battery I had on that last did several years, but I doubt the current stuff will last anywhere near that. Unfortunately Sonnenschein appear to have got out of “consumer” vehicle batteries & both Bosch and Varta are just brands of Johnson Comtrols and now appear to be made in the Far East.

Nigel B

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

Put a 100 miles on the old girl the last couple of days and batt seems to be holding up.

[Ex contributor]

On Ex contributor Said:

I wonder if the happy Motobatt users are on bikes with minimal load electrical systems i.e. no electric starter. My sole experience of one of these on a Honda VTR1000 was that it was unable to start the bike from cold – Ok after the bike had been started with the aid of a slave battery & warmed through, but insufficient CCA capacity to get things going. Seller wouldn’t refund, but offered a substantial discount on a supposedly top spec Yuasa – that didn’t last long either. Eventually discussed this with the Honda dealer & found (very much to my suprise) that an OEM spec Yuasa from Honda was cheaper than the aftermarket Yuasa & that sorted the battery woes with that bike.

Battery quality does seem to be declining though. I used to get 5-7 years from a Bosch or Varta battery on Mrs B’s R65LS (which she bought at 6 months old in January 1987 – so it has seen a number of batteries). The last Varta died at 2 years old. A “no-name” Ebay gel battery was tried instead last year – the first one was DOA. The seller was OK to deal with, sent out a replacement without quibble & that is bearing up OK – for now. OEM spec batteries do seem to be better in terms of life expectancy than aftermarket replacements – both my RE Interceptor 650 & Mrs. B’s MG V7 Classic are over 5 years old now & both are still on the OEM batteries. Neither seems to take much time to show charged when I rotate the Accumate on to them over the winter, unlike the “new last year” wet Bosch replacement on the RE Classic 500, which seems to loose quite a lot between top uips.

…

Nigel B

Not at all. I use Motobatts on all my e-start bikes, including Harley Road King 1340, BMW R100RS and Honda VFR800. They have always been faultless, until they reach a few years old and die gradually so I can replace them before total failure.

The  VTR1000 being a high-compression twin is probably an acid test for battery power. A cheap battery load tester would have been able to tell you if your new Motobatt was putting out the required Cold Cranking Amps (CCA) vis a vis the spec on the label. It is possible the Yuasa had a higher CCA. Both battery’s specs should be available online and on the labels to compare.

Yes new batteries are definitely not as long lasting as they once were. But as you say, the batteries supplied in new bikes seems to be superior in longevity. My VFR800 bought new had a Voltz brand battery that lasted 7 years, with no trickle charger used. Subsequent Voltz brand lasted the usual year or maybe two. They were cheap to buy so not that surprising. Either quality declined in that 7 years or the factories buy higher spec batteries to keep new owners happy and protect the bike’s brand name and reputation for reliability. Even the Motobatts seem to last maybe 3 years if you are lucky today.

My 1981 R65 BM with the short frame and small battery though used to need a new genuine BMW battery every two years or less. It seemed only just up to the job when new so did not have to drop off much before it was not able to crank at all. No such issues with my R100 with the much bigger battery. I use Motobatt in that these days too.

Kickstart bikes are not so fussy. I run cheapie sealed fire alarm type AGMs in all my kicker bikes and they seem to do OK. Except my WLA that had regulator issues and I bought a Yuasa for it. But now it has a solid state proper regulator, I reckon a cheapie would do the job.

[bernard towers]

On bernard towers Said:

Put a 100 miles on the old girl the last couple of days and batt seems to be holding up.

Bernard, how did you get your Motobatt to last since 2015? Do you leave it permanently on a smart charger when not in use, or just an occasional hook up to a charger, or trickle charger on at timer?

I took the old “Walla” to the local classic club bike show on the weekend. Lovely sunny day after months of rain. The battery/regulator issues seem to be solved. But now the speedo drive gear stripped on the way home. There is always something with these old girls!

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Some electric golf caddie type machines use 12v gel cells, that same charger is ideal for charging 12v gel bike batteries. used one for the last10 years – never played golf ! Noel.

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Back in the 1980’s BMW flat twins had a pretty poor reputation for short battery life when using normal motorcycle batteries. Even though the big one use on the R75 – R100 models and Moto Guzzi V twins was supposed to be made for the job. 2 or 3 years max seemed to be the norm even on a daily driver which should have easily kept them up to decent charge. Although BMW running a standard car type alternator direct off the crank never seemed a good idea as those alternators don’t get up to full output until approaching 3,000 revs. I always had a voltmeter fitted to my BMW twins and the battery really suffered in town. Examining for teh BMF Rider Training Scheme at a mid-London site could really pull it down.

My cure was to fit a Reliant size car battery. Sorted, never needed to change in 4 years which was the longest time I had a bike so fitted.

I always reckoned the car type starter motor currents demand was too much for a bike battery.

Clive

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Yes I used to run a wet cell car battery of some sort in my Laverda triple back in the day and it seemed to last forever.

These days in my R100RS i run a 24ah Motobatt that is half the size of the original old 30ah wet cell but has about twice the cold cranking amps. Sadly, it died completely while I was overseas for three months earlier this year and did not leave a charger hooked up to it. But its 5 years old so about due.

The other thing about having multiple bikes that don’t get ridden very often is modern petrol seems to go “stale” after about six weeks and make starting very hard. My old WLA Harley had two year old petrol in it when I dragged it out last week and absolutely would not fire up despite draining the tank and filling with fresh. The carbie was still full of old fuel so I had to resort to squirting fresh fuel down the intake manifold to get it to fire up long enough to suck some fresh fuel through into the float bowl and then away she went merrily. Starts first kick now.

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

Im a bit hit and miss with the optimate so cant give you any real pattern sorry.

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

I’m not a fan of the Optimate. Left the Commander on charge over winter some years ago relaying on the Optimate claims to safely look after the batteries. Result two 4 month old premium quality batteries totally destroyed.

These days I just use one of Mr LiDLs cheap “semi smart” chargers to tickle up to an estimated 3 and something out of 4 bars charge which is enough to ensure anything starts. But last time round I went Motoblatt AGM on both bikes. For unplanned reasons winter rest started early so both bikes had to stand for over 6 months with only one warm up run half way through. As ever the Commander fired up easily, the GTS needed a hours charge before it would go. I guess the extra loads of fuel pump and EFI are a bit unfair on a single battery coming out of hibernation. SU carbs on the free spinning rotary give the dual batteries an easier life.

Neither seem to suffer from stale fuel.

Clive

[Ian ParkinParticipant @ianparkin39383]

Decided i wanted another bike after a period of not having one so looked around for a airhead bmw found this one fairly local

It started and ran sounding very nice everything electrical seems to work but the clutch was stuck to the flywheel and no amount of bumping the bike in gear with clutch lever pulled in would free it off

I did want a project so stripping it down was the answer within 6 hours of getting it home it was stripped to its component parts..it looks a lot rougher in bits..its only done 35,000 miles and its a 1984 bike …i think its spent its life outside.

one issue the engine and transmission is held into the frame with only 2 studs one came out easily the other no way i had to cut through the stud at both sides…luckily theres a 6mm spacer between the frame and block but now how to remove the stud

This stud goes through the sump

Any bright ideas on how to get this out?

took lots of parts today to be blasted and powder coated

[Ian ParkinParticipant @ianparkin39383]

Have you ever seen a rustier seat base?

And rusty pushrod tubes

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Looks like a nice old bike. I have an 81 R100RS and had a few other Airheads over the years. The Achilles heel seems to be the transmissions, especially if left unused in a wet environment and moisture gets into the oils. Gearbox and bevel drive bearings get rust on them and chop out quickly under load. Some of the bearings are BMW only specials and you have to pay the BMW price! So it is worth changing the gearbox, driveshaft and bevel oils annually or every 5000 km with the engine oil. And seal up around where the speedo cable enters the gearbox with Silastic and put a zip tie around the rubber boot to stop water running down there.

Rusty seat base is standard for some reason. Maybe they did not paint them from the factory?

Removing the corroded in stud across the engine will probably need heat from a propane torch and blast it with releasing fluid of your choice a few times, then a drift and hammer.

Likewise, if you get to changing transmission bearings etc, heat the cases to 100C with a propane torch so the races fall in and out without wearing out the hole they fit in. Ditto wheel bearings.

Lots of good Airhead sites on the net with plenty of info if you look around. Qute a community of enthusiasts worldwide and a massive accumulated knowledge base.

[Ian ParkinParticipant @ianparkin39383]

I was thinking about a sash clamp across the engine pushing on the stud and a socket at the other end to allow the stud to exit then as hopper says warming the stud tunnel…how hot can i get the tunnel without affecting the integrity of the rest of the engine?

and plus gas liberally applied to the ends of the stud

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Cut centre of stud out of crankcase and using hydraulic fluid and a valve compressor push  the stubs out individually. Trying to push out with a sash cramp or similar over the whole width of the case is going to risk  a new crankcase. Heat and fluid works wonders. Copper slip to replace is good. Electrolytic corrosion is a pain.

Regards  ian.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Generally, impact will work better than a steady clamping force. Hammer and drift should do it. You can heat the casing to 100C safe enough (AKA spit-sizzling hot.)  Gearbox and bevel casings can go up to 200C if you have a tight bearing etc, so I think 100C is pretty conservative. Probably won’t need that much as the ally will expand a lot faster than the steel stud. Sometimes a few heating and cooling cycles plus blasting with release oil etc will help to break the layer of corrosion loose that is jamming it up.

If worse comes to worst, you could try drilling out the stud from either end. Not fully, but a good sized hole down the middle can sometimes relieve the pressure on the OD and let things break lose.

 

[Ian ParkinParticipant @ianparkin39383]

Well its out after too many hours messing around

i had tried drilling with a hand held drill but its a tough stud and even my cobalt drills didn’t want to work..

so i manoeuvred it into the workshop and installed on the big drill press and drilled (with difficulty) a 8.5mm hole and tapped that m10 then i have a hydraulic cylinder for a metal punch kit and i made adapters to suit everything.

it was very hard work but it eventually gave way.then i put a length of all thread in and pulled it out..its 7 inches long and fought every step of teh way…

 

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