Motorcycle General Discussion

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

Posted by Hopper on 13/04/2020 11:35:38:

I get 20,000 miles out of an X-ring chain and sprockets on my 105hp Honda VFR800. I'm pretty happy with that. And it almost never needs adjusting after bed-in.

The rubber belt drive on my Harley seems to last forever but only about 70 ponies going through that.

But RE could have put the primary chain on the left and the rear chain on the right so the more shapely engine cam timing cover was on the right in the conventional manner. Plenty of bikes do that including Harley Sportster from 1957 to present and the old 1942 WLA military Harley too.

Edited By Hopper on 13/04/2020 11:39:54

Thank you. I rest my case.

Also the Hinkley Triumph twins (air and water cooled) would look downright ridiculous with their covers swapped over, and they manage modern gearbox/clutch/final drive design, but still have a vague look/lineage back to the first of the twins from 1936.

Its a shame that virtually all modern parallel twins have gone for this 270 degree crank fashion, basically making the motor feel and sound like a 90 degree v twin…

… except…. IMHO, the most authentic of all the current retros…

the Kawasaki W800.

Long stroke crank. Check, Triumph, RE short stroke

360 degree crank. Check. Triumph RE 270.

Screw and locknut valve clearances, no bucket under shims. Check.

No OHC chain or DOHC chain. Check – bevel drive!

Covid 19 has brought this thread alive!

Some great posts in the last 3 pages and i concur with most.

Stay safe, stay healthy out there.

[John MCParticipant @johnmc39344]

As for acceptable weight, a good bench mark I believe is the Meriden Triumph T140 (750) ~50bhp, 194Kg with some fluids. Series 2 (British) Interceptor slightly lighter. No balance shaft, electric start and other modern features. Technology moves on and it would be reasonable to expect a modern 50bhp bike to weigh very similar. So the RE at 208 kg kerbside with E/S, balance shaft, fuel injection, catalytic converters , ABS , meeting much stricter regulatory requirements & built to a very keen price is only 14kg heavier than your optimum ? Doesn't seem enough to qualify as very overweight ? Triumph street triple, 675cc, double the power of the above, plenty of modern features, 175Kg ready to ride. Not on my radar, I'm afraid. Too revvy & typically "modern" lack of style and practicality for me. It's competition Yamaha 900 triple likewise – more power than I feel I need coupled to a "sod what it looks like, it's all about the (dry weather) ride" approach to styling & functionality. I reckoned for a long time that I would cheerfully sacrifice 20hp I could not use on the road for 20mpg better economy – my last 3 modern middleweights (Moto Guzzi Breva 750, Honda NC750S & the RE) have done that just fine.

If Triumph can build a 675cc 100+bhp bike that meets all the regulatory requirements and has all the features motorcyclist demand in a modern motorcycle that weighs 33Kg ( 72lbs) less then the RE is somewhat overweight. KTM Duke similar spec to the Triumph also reinforces my point. Even an MT-09 Yamaha is lighter.

And the BMW's S1000 makes 4 time the power of the RE and is a few Kg lighter.

You may well think they are "revvy" engines, yes they are but thanks to electronics they also have good bottom and mid-range "grunt".

If the RE could shed 25 – 30Kg then it would be an excellent motorcycle.

If it wasn't for C-19 crisis one of the above would be in my garage now , had a test ride booked on a KTM the day after the lock down restrictions were imposed on us. Also considering a 1960's Norton, soon as we can travel I'm going to have a look.

John

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

If looking at 1960s Nortons be aware the 750 Atlas would be the vibratingest motorcycle ever made. Mine sheds and cracks parts like nothing else ive ever owned, including a plethora of Harleys.

And i think the RE is built down to a price so unlikely to use lighter stronger materials and tech. I rode one extensvely in the US last year and seemed nice and light and neutral in the steering for the type of bike it is. Comparing with Triumph 675 or the BMW and other modern sport bikes is apples vs oranges. The RE is not targeted at that market. 

Edited By Hopper on 15/04/2020 22:39:56

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

Posted by John MC on 15/04/2020 16:51:14:

As for acceptable weight, a good bench mark I believe is the Meriden Triumph T140 (750) ~50bhp, 194Kg with some fluids. Series 2 (British) Interceptor slightly lighter. No balance shaft, electric start and other modern features. Technology moves on and it would be reasonable to expect a modern 50bhp bike to weigh very similar. So the RE at 208 kg kerbside with E/S, balance shaft, fuel injection, catalytic converters , ABS , meeting much stricter regulatory requirements & built to a very keen price is only 14kg heavier than your optimum ? Doesn't seem enough to qualify as very overweight ? Triumph street triple, 675cc, double the power of the above, plenty of modern features, 175Kg ready to ride. Not on my radar, I'm afraid. Too revvy & typically "modern" lack of style and practicality for me. It's competition Yamaha 900 triple likewise – more power than I feel I need coupled to a "sod what it looks like, it's all about the (dry weather) ride" approach to styling & functionality. I reckoned for a long time that I would cheerfully sacrifice 20hp I could not use on the road for 20mpg better economy – my last 3 modern middleweights (Moto Guzzi Breva 750, Honda NC750S & the RE) have done that just fine.

If Triumph can build a 675cc 100+bhp bike that meets all the regulatory requirements and has all the features motorcyclist demand in a modern motorcycle that weighs 33Kg ( 72lbs) less then the RE is somewhat overweight. KTM Duke similar spec to the Triumph also reinforces my point. Even an MT-09 Yamaha is lighter.

And the BMW's S1000 makes 4 time the power of the RE and is a few Kg lighter.

You may well think they are "revvy" engines, yes they are but thanks to electronics they also have good bottom and mid-range "grunt".

If the RE could shed 25 – 30Kg then it would be an excellent motorcycle.

If it wasn't for C-19 crisis one of the above would be in my garage now , had a test ride booked on a KTM the day after the lock down restrictions were imposed on us. Also considering a 1960's Norton, soon as we can travel I'm going to have a look.

John

Apples and Oranges.

[John MCParticipant @johnmc39344]

Apples and oranges, really? Just because the Re is a mid-range motorcycle of relatively modest performance doesn't mean its OK to ignore weight. The RE is over weight, not massively so, a bit like me really, could do with losing a bit! I really hope that RE refine the design, get a good few kilo's off it but leave the engines performance alone, that would be a nice motorcycle.

John

[Tim HammondParticipant @timhammond72264]

Posted by Hopper on 15/04/2020 22:37:29:

If looking at 1960s Nortons be aware the 750 Atlas would be the vibratingest motorcycle ever made. Mine sheds and cracks parts like nothing else ive ever owned, including a plethora of Harleys.

Interesting observation about vibration there, Hopper. Over the course of many years I owned a BMW R60/6, an R45, an R80 and an R80RT, all of which had very smooth engines and were nice to ride. A subsequent R100RT was OK, but noticeably lumpy compared to its predecessors. Next was an R850RT (so-called oilhead and a grey import) which vibrated badly at speeds over 70 mile/hr, so much so that I complained to the dealer who sold it to me, he road tested it and declared it OK (they all do that, sir). In due course I bought the Harley custom, road-tested it before purchase, and was delighted with how smooth it was at 70+ mile/hr. (I bought the Harley purely for the feet forward riding position – kind to arthritic knees.) Note it had a rubber-mounted engine unit, which I believe was a rework of Norton's "Isolastic" system, which is where we came in.

A touch of nostalgia – I remember when the 750 Atlas came out, one of the weekly magazines road tested the bike (probably Motor Cycle) and I remember vividly the tester's opening remarks "Tears and piteous cries will help you not one jot – the Atlas is for export only and you can't buy one in Britain." Seems like it was a blessing in disguise.

[Tim HammondParticipant @timhammond72264]

PS Haven't a clue why the print's gone small in my previous post.

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

I rode my mates 850 Commando and the control of the vibration made it a joy to ride. And it handled well for a non featherbed bike. The Triumph Tiger 750 was a very different beast, gutless and the handling was awful, maybe it was the tyres that spoiled it. The handling actually improved with a pillion. My Connie and Intercepter both handled quite well, but mid range vibration let them down, funny thing was that at high revs their vibration got better. I think it is a shame that an eight valve 650 with fuel injection has only got the same power as my old Suzuki GS500E, I think they should have opted for 65hp.

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

All its doing is providing a little lube between roller and sprocket.

After a bad experience with aerosol chain lube, I went back to using gear oil to do this. The Scott oiler isn't my prefered system – too variable in delivery rate with temperature changes. Currently using a fully manual handlebar mounted "Nemo" system on the RE, which dispenses a fixed volume of oil per actuation. I have only used around 30cc of oil in 3000 miles – not that much, but it still gets onto the rim & around the number plate.

It was an early VFR800 demonstrator that persuaded Mrs B that she "needed" to upgrade her ZZR600 to something that handled & stopped better – but that the "something" was not a VFR800 ! Too top heavy & generated a prodigeous amount of heat in traffic. She bought a new VTR1000 instead. Having ridden one at the same time, I prefered my friends' VFR750 – the last of the twin sided swinging arm models – as the 750 was more compact.

Its a shame that virtually all modern parallel twins have gone for this 270 degree crank fashion, basically making the motor feel and sound like a 90 degree v twin…

No shame – just a better engineering compromise. Triumph originally chose 360 degree cranks to allow the use of a single carb – something not possible with 180 or 270 degree cranks, apparently, due to uneven intake pulses. Trouble with 360 & 180 degree cranks is that the psitons both stop at the same time at each end of the stoke – with a 270 degree crank one piston is moving at the time that the other stops & reverses direction, so less flywheel mass required. It is true that a balance shaft is required, but there is less destructive vibration with this layout. And having had both 90 degree vee twins & 270 degree parallel twins I can say that, while the 270 degree paralle twin sounds somewhat like a 90 degree vee, they "feel" different.

… except…. IMHO, the most authentic of all the current retros…

the Kawasaki W800.

Now there is an overweight, underpowered, over priced motorcycle ! Frumpy styling and dull colour schemes as well. Shame they ended up this way, was the original W650 was a lovely looking bike – a more "authetic" retro bike than the Thaiumph Bonveville of the same period. The RE is screw & locknut valve adjustment too, though not sure why that is a great selling point – shims tend to stay in tolerance longer in my experience.

The RE is over weight

Only in your eyes, I think. You still have not highlighted a comparable performance bike at a similar price point that is appreciably lighter. The "price point" bit is important, as "adding lightness" costs money – all the examples provided up to now are substatially more than the RE's sub £6K OTR price.

I really hope that RE refine the design, get a good few kilo's off it but leave the engines performance alone,

Not going to happen. The current arrangement didn't disuade the 1400 buyers in the UK last year (a time of supply shortages), or the people who made it the No.3 best selling over 500cc model in the UK for the first couple of months this year (behind two versions of the grossly overweight BMW R1200GS). Figures volunteered by the owner of a Triumph dealership I have known for 30+ years that he got from a dealer conference. Might not push your buttons, but RE seem to have got the price/performance/style balance right in many people's eyes.

Good luck if you choose the Austrian Grenade route.

Nigel B.

(sorry for late reply – back at work now !)

Edited By mgnbuk on 16/04/2020 19:55:14

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

Posted by John MC on 16/04/2020 16:27:51:

Apples and oranges, really? Just because the Re is a mid-range motorcycle of relatively modest performance doesn't mean its OK to ignore weight. The RE is over weight, not massively so, a bit like me really, could do with losing a bit! I really hope that RE refine the design, get a good few kilo's off it but leave the engines performance alone, that would be a nice motorcycle.

John

Pricing.

You cannot compare 675/765 Speed Triples to a RE retro Interceptor built down to a price.

The reason they are selling is because they are a half decent product and are CHEAP.

Apples And Oranges.

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

Posted by John MC on 14/04/2020 16:42:47:

Nigel B.

I had forgotten about the Himalayan, bit of a disaster that one and a good example of an overweight motorcycle, I stand corrected.

I'm told there is a European company making big bore conversions for the twin (and Himalayan), RE are sure to know about. Still think 650 to 850 is a step to far.

The "problem" if it can be called that, with the early Hinckley Triumphs was that the engines were designed by guys whose experience was with car engines. They did not realise just how compact a motorcycle engine is and it showed. They soon realised and set about correcting along with the mechanical noise problem. The overbuilt reputation was probably nurtured to cover this up.

On the subject of weight saving and the new unitised RE Bullet engine. The RE stylists decided to take their styling Cues from an existing popular brand of motorcycle. In doing this the cylinder head gained some 1.5kg in weight just to make it look like they wanted. Other parts suffered the same. Attempts were made to dissuade them from doing this. Unsuccessfully as it turns out.

John

The Himalayan has been a huge (read HUGE) sales success for RE. Worldwide. Especially in Australia, and of all places, America.

Yes it is 40 kgs heavier than a CRF250L, but they are really different genres. Its become a bit of a cult RTW long distance travel bike. See Noraly's (YT Itchy Boots) first bike took her 35k kms RTW..

The big bore kit for the twins (860cc) is American.

The big bore kit for the Himalayan (411 to 462cc) is British, by Hitchcocks.

[John MCParticipant @johnmc39344]

While different styles of motorcycle may vary in weight, sports vs. touring for instance, genre is no excuse for an overweight motorcycle.

As for sales, not disputing RE's sell well, probably because of their low price (don't like to use "cheap&quot, good luck to them and long may it continue.

Back in the mid 1990's they were struggling to sell ~20,000 a year, in recent years they have been selling something like 40 times that amount.

Back in the 90's I was working with the factory on various projects, it gives me immense satisfaction that the work I did helped build the foundations that have lead RE to the position they are in now.

John

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

You have to remember too that the RE is pitched largely at the US retro market where small light bikes are looked down upon. Heavier bikes are favoured there.

In fact the RE i rode over there last year felt a bit small and light pn the open road where the Triumph Bonneville feels much more planted. The RE seemed more of a round town bar hopper to me. Excess weight just was not an issue that i felt at all.

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

You have to remember too that the RE is pitched largely at the US retro market

Nope. RE is geared primarily to the India market, where an affordable middleweight twin is a "performance" bike. In the home market the RE twins are about a third of the price of a comparable "import". RE export volumes are a very small percentage of their annual production (and American exports a very small prportion fo the export total) – the Indian market is normally so large it swallows all they can produce, though there is a bit of a slump at present.

Beggars belief that producing around 50,000 350 Bullets a month still resulted in several month long waiting lists – 20 years ago before the Eicher takeover RE didn't produced around half that number a year.

The RE seemed more of a round town bar hopper to me.

But you are used to a 350+Kg Harley for distance work ? Knackered hands/wrists/forearms limit what I can do now, but I have comfortably done 240 back roads miles in a day on the Interceptor & usually 180-200 a day when in the Alps/Dolomites. Can't say I'd enjoy 500 motorway miles in a day like I once did on holiday, but I didn't particlularly enjoy that on bigger, faired bikes either.

Nigel B.

[John MCParticipant @johnmc39344]

Eicher Goodearth began acquiring Enfield, as it was then in 1990, full control by 1993. Thats when the modernisation of the Bullet range began. Eicher have been in control for nearly 30 years.

John

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

It would appear that Indian manufacturer TVS has bought Norton

£16 million cash deal that sees existing employees TUPED to the new company according to the report above, but the report doesn't say which assets are included. It has been reported elswhere that the 961 twin rights & tooling had been sold to a Chinese company just before Norton went under. Best guess would be the all new 650 twin that the failed Norton company had taken (unsecured) deposits on.

TVS are the third biggest Indian manufacturer & already manufacture BMW's small single cylinder bikes.

Nigel B.

[Bob RodgersonParticipant @bobrodgerson97362]

I am currently restoring two Humber 350's an OHV and OHC. A few years ago I made up a new big end and built up a crankshaft using a con rod that I thought was the correct Humber rod. Unfortunately when I built up the bottom end of the engine and tried the barrel and piston for fit I found that the piston only came to about 1/2" below the top of the barrel.

The only solution I could come up with was to make a couple of new rods, one for me and another for a friend who is restoring another OHV Humber.

I started with two lengths of 2 3/4" EN-9 Bar.

This is what they look like now. Only the oil hole to drill in the little end and a bit of light polishing here and there should see them finished.

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

Posted by Bob Rodgerson on 22/04/2020 23:07:06:

I am currently restoring two Humber 350's an OHV and OHC. A few years ago I made up a new big end and built up a crankshaft using a con rod that I thought was the correct Humber rod. Unfortunately when I built up the bottom end of the engine and tried the barrel and piston for fit I found that the piston only came to about 1/2" below the top of the barrel.

The only solution I could come up with was to make a couple of new rods, one for me and another for a friend who is restoring another OHV Humber.

I started with two lengths of 2 3/4" EN-9 Bar.

This is what they look like now. Only the oil hole to drill in the little end and a bit of light polishing here and there should see them finished.

"like" button pressed.

[John MCParticipant @johnmc39344]

Posted by Bob Rodgerson on 22/04/2020 23:07:06:

I am currently restoring two Humber 350's an OHV and OHC. A few years ago I made up a new big end and built up a crankshaft using a con rod that I thought was the correct Humber rod. Unfortunately when I built up the bottom end of the engine and tried the barrel and piston for fit I found that the piston only came to about 1/2" below the top of the barrel.

The only solution I could come up with was to make a couple of new rods, one for me and another for a friend who is restoring another OHV Humber.

I started with two lengths of 2 3/4" EN-9 Bar.

This is what they look like now. Only the oil hole to drill in the little end and a bit of light polishing here and there should see them finished.

Nice looking job! Did you mean EN19? I think that EN9 (55 carbon steel) isn't really up to the job, not known for its toughness which is what a connecting rod needs.

[Gerard O’TooleParticipant @gerardotoole60348]

Posted by mgnbuk on 16/04/2020 19:54:38:

 

the Kawasaki W800.

Now there is an overweight, underpowered, over priced motorcycle ! Frumpy styling and dull colour schemes as well. Shame they ended up this way, was the original W650 was a lovely looking bike – a more "authetic" retro bike than the Thaiumph Bonveville of the same period. The RE is screw & locknut valve adjustment too, though not sure why that is a great selling point – shims tend to stay in tolerance longer in my experience.

 

Nigel B.

Edited By mgnbuk on 16/04/2020 19:55:14

The W800 is neater and has a lower seat than the W650.

It's power and weight are almost exactly the same as my A65 , so not really 'overweight, underpowered. '

Styling is perhaps in the eye of the beholder , to me it looks pretty good

Edited By Gerard O’Toole on 23/04/2020 13:09:17

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

That is really a labour of love, Bob, what type of big end bearing do they use? I would have been tempted to shorten the barrel by 1/2".

[Bob RodgersonParticipant @bobrodgerson97362]

John MC. The material I used was in fact EN24T and not EN-9 Don't know why I said EN-9 in the first place. Must be an age thing.

[Bob RodgersonParticipant @bobrodgerson97362]

Old Mart, Can't shorten the barrel. The big end is a double row crowded roller big end. I made iy myself so I hope it works OK,

I have made a few con rods over the years and my 350 side valve Humber has had one in it for years and it has stood the test of time.

[David Davies 8Participant @daviddavies8]

Hello Bob,

those rods are neat! I realise that the Humber is not a very high powered bike but do you need to nitride them after you have finished the machining? I once saw a set of rods destined for a 1760cc Ford X flow that had been shot peened – they had a surface not dissimilar to a golf ball. The engine ran ok though!

Cheers

Dave

[Bob RodgersonParticipant @bobrodgerson97362]

Hi David, No need to Nitride them they are really strong, probably stronger than the original forged steel rods that the bike came with.

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