Motorcycle General Discussion

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

Don't forget, mid 60's onwards, money was getting ever tighter, especially with the nutters in the BSA boardroom, and the way what money was there, was spent frivously. Bernard Docker anyone? Slumberglade Hall?

The downfall of Meriden Triumph, began in earnest when BSA started taking ever more interest in the concern, mid 60's onwards, because it out produced Small Heath, with less employees, and a more saleable product. (BSA brought Triumph in late 50's?).

Plenty of excellent books out there – read them and weep.

From a man who has more than one Triumph tattoo…..

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

I am building a 90 degree triumph engine at the moment. It can be done using the stronger norton commando crankshaft, which i am sure you know, has two throws bolted to a central flywheel. A relatively simple task of making a new flywheel, turning the timing side mainshaft to triumph dimensions.

Camshafts are available for the rephased crank, as are conrods to suit the norton crank in the triumph cases.

With a big bore kit the capacity ends up a little over 800cc. A toolmaker chap i know in Australia has done several of these conversions, and reports that even without dynamic balancing, the 90 degree engine is noticeably smoother than the smaller capacity 360 degree engine.

So Phil Irving and his theories were vindicated, and as Hinkley triumph twins are this configuration now, it appears to be the way to go.

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

Posted by thaiguzzi on 13/02/2018 08:22:33:

Don't forget, mid 60's onwards, money was getting ever tighter, especially with the nutters in the BSA boardroom, and the way what money was there, was spent frivously. Bernard Docker anyone? Slumberglade Hall?

The downfall of Meriden Triumph, began in earnest when BSA started taking ever more interest in the concern, mid 60's onwards, because it out produced Small Heath, with less employees, and a more saleable product. (BSA brought Triumph in late 50's?).

Plenty of excellent books out there – read them and weep.

From a man who has more than one Triumph tattoo…..

I was reading about the infamous Nora the other day, presenting the bsa/triumph board with outrageous bills for her latest fur coats and other outfits. She reckoned that she was justified, because she appeared on show stands bedecked in her finery, i can just imagine the faces of the ton-up boys standing there looking at her draped over a bike.

Not good.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

I don't think the engineers at Triumph/BSA were short of ideas on how to build a modern engine with modern machinery but the money to buy it just wasn't there. I believe the Trident/Rocket3 were intended to be built like Japanese engines but that would have meant retooling so it had to be built like the twins. John Bloor showed what could be achieved with a clean sheet and sufficient money. The workers realised they had been let down by bad management but learned a hard lesson that the real world wasn't ready for a workers coop.

Mike

Edited By Mike Poole on 13/02/2018 14:13:16

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

Posted by Mike Poole on 13/02/2018 14:12:07:

I don't think the engineers at Triumph/BSA were short of ideas on how to build a modern engine with modern machinery but the money to buy it just wasn't there. I believe the Trident/Rocket3 were intended to be built like Japanese engines but that would have meant retooling so it had to be built like the twins. John Bloor showed what could be achieved with a clean sheet and sufficient money. The workers realised they had been let down by bad management but learned a hard lesson that the real world wasn't ready for a workers coop.

Mike

Edited By Mike Poole on 13/02/2018 14:13:16

Yes, bad management and greedy investors, never any profits set aside for reinvestment. Some of the machinery sold off during the closure of the Meriden factory in the early 1980's, was pre-war manufactured ! Unthinkable in this day and age, i believe in the new triumph factory, all the machinery is replaced every three years, regardless of condition.

[JimmieSParticipant @jimmies]

One of the so called 'cottage industries' for the motorcycle restorers

.**LINK**

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

Posted by JimmieS on 13/02/2018 16:45:24:

One of the so called 'cottage industries' for the motorcycle restorers

.**LINK**

I wondered whatever happened to him. He had a place in Yorkshire and was big into making uprated parts for Triumph tiger cubs, a favourite with the pre 65 trials mob. Glad its working out well for him.

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

Horizontal multi split crankcases = 1 gasket interface.

Vertically split Triumph trident/BSA Rocket III c/cases = 7 gasket interfaces.

Go figure….

Posted by Mike Poole on 13/02/2018 14:12:07:

I don't think the engineers at Triumph/BSA were short of ideas on how to build a modern engine with modern machinery but the money to buy it just wasn't there. I believe the Trident/Rocket3 were intended to be built like Japanese engines but that would have meant retooling so it had to be built like the twins. John Bloor showed what could be achieved with a clean sheet and sufficient money. The workers realised they had been let down by bad management but learned a hard lesson that the real world wasn't ready for a workers coop.

Mike

Edited By Mike Poole on 13/02/2018 14:13:16

[Bob RodgersonParticipant @bobrodgerson97362]

I agree with Mike,

I have on the bench at the moment, a BSA Fury Engine which came out of the research department at Umberslade Hall I am building the engine up from part machined castings and a crankshaft/conrod assembly to, hopefully a working engine when it is finished. It is a long term project that is nearing completion with both crank case halves machined and the lower valve drive train and oil pump drives sorted. The cylinder head will be the next thing to be machined to accept the camshafts and once this is done I will machine the Hemispherical shape for each cylinder before it goes off to a cylinder head specialist to have seats and guides fitted.

The engine is very Honda like being a DOHC twin with the camshafts running directly in the Alloy Cylinder head rather than bearing bushes or needle rollers. Had more money had been available to develop it and improve reliability it could well have become the machine to beat it's Japanese rivals. However I do think that by the early 70's a 350cc engine was the wrong size to go for, people, then were wanting bigger OHC engined bikes and a 750 version would probably have been the right size to go for.

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

Posted by Bob Rodgerson on 14/02/2018 10:22:40:

I agree with Mike,

I have on the bench at the moment, a BSA Fury Engine which came out of the research department at Umberslade Hall I am building the engine up from part machined castings and a crankshaft/conrod assembly to, hopefully a working engine when it is finished. It is a long term project that is nearing completion with both crank case halves machined and the lower valve drive train and oil pump drives sorted. The cylinder head will be the next thing to be machined to accept the camshafts and once this is done I will machine the Hemispherical shape for each cylinder before it goes off to a cylinder head specialist to have seats and guides fitted.

The engine is very Honda like being a DOHC twin with the camshafts running directly in the Alloy Cylinder head rather than bearing bushes or needle rollers. Had more money had been available to develop it and improve reliability it could well have become the machine to beat it's Japanese rivals. However I do think that by the early 70's a 350cc engine was the wrong size to go for, people, then were wanting bigger OHC engined bikes and a 750 version would probably have been the right size to go for.

An interesting project Bob. Love to see pictures of that engine. What i did hear about the fury/bandit, being an Edward Turner design, its basically flimsy, and still suffers the old problems, like vertically split crankcases, which are more prone to oil leakage. The man to sort out triumph would have been Doug Hele, but sadly again he got free reign, the money was drying up fast as the japanese took over the market.

[Bob RodgersonParticipant @bobrodgerson97362]

Hi Ronan,

Vertically split crank cases were a natural and easy way to make single cylinder engines. When the parallel twin without centre bearing came about it still remained the way to go, there were a few odd exceptions such as the AJS and Matchless twins which had a centre bearing fitted in a split housing that could be inserted and bolted up when the crankshaft was inserted into the cases.

However once multi Cylinder engines became the norm, there was little choice but to split the cases horizontally, car engines have been made this way for years or with underhung crankshafts and a sump cover to hold the oil.

The adoption of multi cylinder engines for motorcycles really took off in the early seventies at a time when most of the British twins and singles were reaching the end of their design and possibly their general working lives. As a result there were huge quantities of tatty, ill maintained bikes on the road a lot of which will have been, in the past, attacked with screw drivers and chisels to open the cases during major maintenance and I believe it is this that gives the vertically split case it's bad name.

If the faces of the joint are perfectly flat and unmarked they will seal, my BSA A-10 doesn't leak despite it being over 50 years old.

[davebParticipant @daveb17630]

Posted by Bob Rodgerson on 15/02/2018 09:58:30:

If the faces of the joint are perfectly flat and unmarked they will seal, my BSA A-10 doesn't leak despite it being over 50 years old.

A British bike that doesn't leak oil? Whatever you do, don't start it up until you've put some oil in it.

[peter briggs 1Participant @peterbriggs1]

Triumph Triple engine rebuild

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Been there done it a few times, I think I could take a Trident apart and rebuild it in a dark room. Hopefully mine will turn a wheel again this year, my neighbours have never had the pleasure of a 850cc Hyde triple rattling their windows, will let you know how much they enjoyed it when it happens. Strobing the Boyer at 5000rpm provoked a negative reaction last time. Aren't you glad you don't live next door to me (unless you are a triple fan).

Mike

Edited By Mike Poole on 18/02/2018 22:05:10

[Ian AbbottParticipant @ianabbott31222]

Last but one bike before I gave up, on account of not being able to hold the damn thing up when I stopped. Yamaha XS 750 Special.

I always thought that there was a Japanese designer sitting at his drawing board, laughing like a drain, thinking about some poor bugger trying to do a simple repair in his garage.

Leak though, it did not. Well, after I pulled the cylinders off to fit a base gasket that had a gap in it, it didn't.

I think that some amateur had been at it, judging by a few other things that I found, like the mackled up centre stand.

I could pull the barrel off a Velocette or Royal Enfield single and fit a new gasket in about an hour without stressing myself. This thing took three days.

However, riding it on wide straight roads in Western Canada, was a delight. 9,000 rpm in every gear (bar 5th) and 0-60 in something stupid. And the sound from the three into one, rattling off the side of a minivan, brought out every ounce of senile delinquent in me.

[Ian AbbottParticipant @ianabbott31222]

My last bike. 1998 Royal Enfield (they'd just acquired the "Royal" bit) 500 Bullet, Indian built.

Apparently bought by someone working in India and taken back to England when he'd finished the job.

My wife and I found it when we were walking along a quiet lane in Devon, while we were in England for an extended visit, visiting relatives before we all kick the bucket.

Anyway, as we passed a garage with the doors open we spotted the bike gently rusting away beside flowing water. Where the rust had taken over completely on the chrome mudguards, someone had just slapped a coat of black enamel, same with the festering alloy castings. But it had only done a few hundred miles.

This thing had all the disadvantages of a 1955 British bike, with a whole load of Indian problems added on.

Not having any facilities, it lived under a cover and I cleaned, scraped and oiled until it looked as though it just had fifty years of UK usage on it. I did manage to stop some leaks, but others were impossible without machine tools.

Casings crumbled and the wheels were just about rusted through. The engine breather pumped oil out onto the chain, which was good, but the quantity was not. Threads in the casings were stripped out and the carb flatly refused to stay connected to the engine.

The gearbox started out with four sort of functioning ratios, but in the short time I owned it, it gained three or four neutrals as well, apparently a common thing.

This was about the time my legs were finally giving way and apart from dropping the bike, I couldn't get my foot up onto the kickstart, so I parked it.

Then one day I received a phone call from someone who knew someone who restored bikes as a sort of business cum hobby. I hadn't paid much for the bike and he offered me about the same, so I "reluctantly" parted company with the bike and helped him load it into his van. I had thought of bringing it back to Canada with us, but reason prevailed.

Shortly after, we headed back home to Canada safe in the knowledge that my time with motorcycles was over.

However. It began to cross my mind that even if I don't ride one, I could still have a project bike ongoing in the workshop that would keep my mind occupied, along with the thirty odd other little projects on the go.

Nothing has shown up yet, but you never know what's out there. Maybe a nice Brough Superior that's been parked in a barn and no one knows it's there.

This is a photograph of the RE at an machinery working meet in Devon. When I arrived and tried to go to the car park, the marshals said the bike looked so old, it should be displayed with the antique motorcycles.

Hmmmm.

[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

Doug Hele designed the BSA/Triumph 350 Fury. After Turner "designed" his 350 twin, that turned out to be a disaster, the Suits at BSA/Triumph decided that it needed to be done properly. Apparently the only remaining feature of the Turner design (apart from the 350cc two cylinders part) was the height.

I used to work with a former Triumph employee who must be one of the few who had seen and heard the Turner twin running, he said that it was VERY noisy and tended to stop rather abruptly. Between the frequent breakdowns, apparently it went well.

There is a very interesting article written by Vic Willoughby in one of his books on this motorcycle.

When the Fury/Bandit was announced I ordered one!! Probably still waiting for me in a motor cycle showroom in Wolverhampton. Or maybe not.

Best of luck with Fury project Bob. Love to see some pictures!!

cheers

Bill

Edited By Bill Pudney on 19/02/2018 02:10:04

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

I'll see your Trident, and raise you an 830cc T140…

Edited By thaiguzzi on 19/02/2018 04:34:52

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

I worked with a chap who had one of the very early Turner twins, pre war. The engine ran "backwards" with geared primary drive. I could have bought it.

[JimmieSParticipant @jimmies]

The current issue of Practical Sportsbikes has a short piece re 3D printing as used by Oxford Products. Page 94 should you wish to view in your local reading library, ie,Tesco etc

[davebParticipant @daveb17630]

Posted by Ian Abbott on 18/02/2018 23:44:51:

My last bike. 1998 Royal Enfield (they'd just acquired the "Royal" bit) 500 Bullet, Indian built.

Apparently bought by someone working in India and taken back to England when he'd finished the job.

My wife and I found it when we were walking along a quiet lane in Devon, while we were in England for an extended visit, visiting relatives before we all kick the bucket.

Anyway, as we passed a garage with the doors open we spotted the bike gently rusting away beside flowing water. Where the rust had taken over completely on the chrome mudguards, someone had just slapped a coat of black enamel, same with the festering alloy castings. But it had only done a few hundred miles.

This thing had all the disadvantages of a 1955 British bike, with a whole load of Indian problems added on.

Not having any facilities, it lived under a cover and I cleaned, scraped and oiled until it looked as though it just had fifty years of UK usage on it. I did manage to stop some leaks, but others were impossible without machine tools.

Casings crumbled and the wheels were just about rusted through. The engine breather pumped oil out onto the chain, which was good, but the quantity was not. Threads in the casings were stripped out and the carb flatly refused to stay connected to the engine.

The gearbox started out with four sort of functioning ratios, but in the short time I owned it, it gained three or four neutrals as well, apparently a common thing.

This was about the time my legs were finally giving way and apart from dropping the bike, I couldn't get my foot up onto the kickstart, so I parked it.

Then one day I received a phone call from someone who knew someone who restored bikes as a sort of business cum hobby. I hadn't paid much for the bike and he offered me about the same, so I "reluctantly" parted company with the bike and helped him load it into his van. I had thought of bringing it back to Canada with us, but reason prevailed.

Shortly after, we headed back home to Canada safe in the knowledge that my time with motorcycles was over.

However. It began to cross my mind that even if I don't ride one, I could still have a project bike ongoing in the workshop that would keep my mind occupied, along with the thirty odd other little projects on the go.

Nothing has shown up yet, but you never know what's out there. Maybe a nice Brough Superior that's been parked in a barn and no one knows it's there.

This is a photograph of the RE at an machinery working meet in Devon. When I arrived and tried to go to the car park, the marshals said the bike looked so old, it should be displayed with the antique motorcycles.

Hmmmm.

You haven't got there until they put the bike in the concours and you in the antiques.

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

I got talking to an old boy at the local jumble years ago, it was a hilarious conversation. He like most had reached an age when the aches, pains and other health issues had put him off his classic bikes, so reluctantly he sold them off. After a while and missing motorcycling, he was advised to buy a "modern" royal oilfield single with electric start. All the looks and positives of classic motorcycles, with none of the negatives (ho ho ho).

So he went and bought a brand new out of the dealers showroom Bullet with leccy start. Then the calamity started, The miracle electric start packed up, the clutch fell off the end of the gearbox mainshaft, the wheel bearings went, the steering head bearings went, everything chromed started to rust, the big end went, and when it was replaced, the conrod was found to be bent, and all the aluminium castings took to corrode.

It was like fate was paying a cruel joke on him, the dealers advice was to find a dimly lit stretch of canal and do the honourable thing.

I was looking at both a kawasaki w800 and the new triumph bonneville at the weekend, both well made machines that are reliable.

[davebParticipant @daveb17630]

Posted by ronan walsh on 19/02/2018 16:42:55:

I got talking to an old boy at the local jumble years ago, it was a hilarious conversation. He like most had reached an age when the aches, pains and other health issues had put him off his classic bikes, so reluctantly he sold them off. After a while and missing motorcycling, he was advised to buy a "modern" royal oilfield single with electric start. All the looks and positives of classic motorcycles, with none of the negatives (ho ho ho).

So he went and bought a brand new out of the dealers showroom Bullet with leccy start. Then the calamity started, The miracle electric start packed up, the clutch fell off the end of the gearbox mainshaft, the wheel bearings went, the steering head bearings went, everything chromed started to rust, the big end went, and when it was replaced, the conrod was found to be bent, and all the aluminium castings took to corrode.

Well I'll be blowed! They made it just like a genuine British bike. I've been looking at these for a while, can't quite decide if I want one.

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

Posted by daveb on 19/02/2018 16:54:38:

Posted by ronan walsh on 19/02/2018 16:42:55:

I got talking to an old boy at the local jumble years ago, it was a hilarious conversation. He like most had reached an age when the aches, pains and other health issues had put him off his classic bikes, so reluctantly he sold them off. After a while and missing motorcycling, he was advised to buy a "modern" royal oilfield single with electric start. All the looks and positives of classic motorcycles, with none of the negatives (ho ho ho).

So he went and bought a brand new out of the dealers showroom Bullet with leccy start. Then the calamity started, The miracle electric start packed up, the clutch fell off the end of the gearbox mainshaft, the wheel bearings went, the steering head bearings went, everything chromed started to rust, the big end went, and when it was replaced, the conrod was found to be bent, and all the aluminium castings took to corrode.

Well I'll be blowed! They made it just like a genuine British bike. I've been looking at these for a while, can't quite decide if I want one.

In all fairness, the British bikes were never that bad, they did heat treat components, the chrome plating was good, they did use bearings from good manufacturers. Also most british bikes makers were out of business by the early 1970's, thirty years later the indian makers should be able to do a far better job of them. Apparently heat treatment and tolerances are alien concepts in India.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

I had a job as a graduate apprentice with BSA due to start in September 1971. Woke up one morning in August to find I'd been made redundant by post, not a good start to my engineering career!
​However, during the 3 day interview (yes you read it right), we met up with the guys who had designed the triple. they stated that the vertical split arrangement was only ever meant to demonstrate that a 3 cylinder bike would work, and that they wanted to redo it as horizontally split for production. The management wouldn't hear of it as it would have meant spending money on machine tools. Quite why they couldn't have got someone else to do that bit I never did find out. They also had ideas for just sawing the end off to make a 500cc twin, what was left over would make a single, but perhaps vertical split is the way to go for singles. They managed to waste money on making the Triumph and BSA versions subtly different, one had sloping cylinders I seem to remember

The AMC twin with centre bearing were notorious for bottom end problems, was this due to lack of alignment?

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