Motorcycle battery charging? Lithium..

[Ian ParkinParticipant @ianparkin39383]

A new motorcycle has found its way into my garage and its fitted with a oldish lithium battery which seems to have suddenly gone bad….however my question is apparently you need a special charger for lithium PO4..? Which is ok for charging off the bike..but does the charging system on the bike…an  Alton 3 phase generator and regulator know how to charge a lithium battery?

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Surely it would be a bit odd to fit a lithium battery but not the right charging system on the bike?

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Some Lithium batteries can be used on car type power systems. The key parameters for charging a lithium battery are the maximum current and end voltage. Car systems do not actively control the current but as the cells in this type of battery can supply starter motor currents they can withstand the high initial charge currents. The car type systems regulate the voltage to between 13.8 and 14.4 volts depending on the design. The LiFePO4 cells have a maximum full charge voltage of about 3.65V so a 4 cell battery will work on a car system OK you will get reduced capacity and longer life if the alternator is set to 13.8V rather than 14.4.
You should NOT use a mains powered charger intended for lead acid batteries on LiFePO4 batteries as they typically do not have regulated voltage and will overcharge the LiFePO4. They often have a lot of AC ripple too and lithiums don’t like that either.

Robert.

[John Haine]

On John Haine Said:

Surely it would be a bit odd to fit a lithium battery but not the right charging system on the bike?

Agreed, but maybe a Lithium battery has been incorrectly substituted for whatever the manufacturer provided.

The batteries of yesteryear may not have been efficient, but they were very simple and could be swapped fairly freely.  Lithium batteries are a whole new ball-game with different rules.  They don’t lend themselves to being swapped ‘plug and play’ – it’s necessary to RTFM, (Read The Flipping Manual).  “Suck it and see” methods are likely to be punished because chargers are optimised to maximise the life and charge put into a particular battery.  In comparison, ordinary battery chargers crash about like a bull in a china shop, and any Lithium battery mis-charged by one won’t last long.

What does the motorbike manual say the battery should be?

Dave

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

I was under the impression that all reputable lithium batteries supplied in motorcycle, snowmobile et al replacement sizes had internal battery management systems and fuses for plug and play fitting. In such cases battery going down is like to be the fuse or a failed cell causing the BMS to shut down.

Might be worth searching for the vendor data sheet.

Clive

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

Alton 3phase!! What’s the bike, just nosy!

[Ian ParkinParticipant @ianparkin39383]

Thanks for the help

its a bit of a bitza so far a Vincent twin fitted with the alton generator but 3 wires (3 phase?) rather than the current models which only have 2 wires..

electric start fitted so need a LOT of starting/cranking amps..

battery fitted seemed to be fine but then just died yesterday at most inconvenient time..it had started engine 10 times during the morning but suddenly nothing…after walking home to get meter and jump pack battery only 8volts and after starting and running for a while still only looks like 8-9 volts..

i have bought a new NOCO NLP20 and was just wondering how to charge it ( on the running bike) bought a new lithium comparable charger at the same time (for home use)

[Ian Parkin]

On 18 December 2024 at 12:00 Ian Parkin Said:

but does the charging system on the bike…an  Alton 3 phase generator and regulator know how to charge a lithium battery?

Battery is dead. Is that the answer?

 

Jimb

[peak4Participant @peak4]

It might be worth reading the explanatory notes here.
Personally, most of mine are AGM
https://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-views/advice/bike-maintenance/how-to-choose-charge-best-bike-motorcycle-battery

Bill

[VicParticipant @vic]

I’ve got a NOCO Charger which can charge Lithium batteries.

https://no.co/genius10

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

I have often wondered about fitting a lithium to my bike but info is a bit scant so have stuck with AGM. the starter on my Chief is tiny and has a epycylic gearbox and coupled with coil ignition it goes on the button as they say. Last battery lasted 8 years so not bad going.

[Ian ParkinParticipant @ianparkin39383]

Ive ordered a AGM and will see if that will start the snarling beast…

[Ian Parkin]

On Ian Parkin Said:

Ive ordered a AGM and will see if that will start the snarling beast…

It’s probably the best option to be fair; the Lidl chargers seem  to work quite well for the occasional top-up over the winter.
For a bike with only little use, I found adding an easy method of draining the carb to be advantageous.
My XT 600 just doesn’t want to fire up if left unused for a couple of weeks with modern fuel, so I made a brass extended drain screw for easy emptying before starting; rather than draining after use and letting the seals dry out.
It’s a moot point as to whether the ethanol in the fuel attracts water and corrodes the internals, or whether to let it run dry and have the seals harden.
I’ve been filling up with Esso Supreme, as that didn’t have any ethanol for most of the UK despite being labelled as E5, though I think it may have changed recently. I may have to resort to StarTron for longer term storage.
Esso didn’t cause internal corrosion problems, but did go off and prevent starting easily.
Be careful comparing prices of StarTron, as it used to come in different strength/dilution ratios, so the more expensive options might work out cheaper.

Bill

[Ian ParkinParticipant @ianparkin39383]

The space under the tank is a bit limited and it’s always had a lithium battery fitted and Alton gen and electric start..

[Ian Parkin]

On Ian Parkin Said:

The space under the tank is a bit limited and it’s always had a lithium battery fitted and Alton gen and electric start..

 

That looks interesting; I missed your earlier post saying what engine it had, so I hadn’t considered electric start.

I was thinking Nimbus straight four.

Bill

[Ian ParkinParticipant @ianparkin39383]

I’ve yet to fit a kickstart…circa £1400 to do that

[FulmenParticipant @fulmen]

@Bill (peak4): I’ll have to disagree with your source a bit. Gel does a good job on MC in my not so humble opinion. I feel entitled to an opinion as I have a 700 Madura which is hell on batteries. However it does look like the opinion on gel has changed a bit, a decade ago they were all the rage for starting applications and now the seem to discourage it.

I used to feed her flooded cells, they lasted 12-18 months. Capacity was still OK, but they couldn’t spin the engine fast enough to start. The last gel batteries has lasted for 5 years or so, honestly I’ve stopped taking notes.I suspect it’s due to their resistance to vibration and discharge/cycle loads.

[Ian ParkinParticipant @ianparkin39383]

After fitting the noco battery just to see how well it turns the engine over…it certainly does

the web site shows this as what’s in the battery…so hopefully it will be ok on my Alton generator

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

best of luck with that and let us know in the future as it will be of interest to more than a few of us.

[Ian ParkinParticipant @ianparkin39383]

My plan is also to fit (its on its way) a motogadget MO system to keep wiring neat and out of the way..

has anyone used one of those? Only worry its on top of a 1000cc air cooled engine under the fuel tank as is the battery

 

[Clive Foster]

On Clive Foster Said:

I was under the impression that all reputable lithium batteries supplied in motorcycle, snowmobile et al replacement sizes had internal battery management systems and fuses for plug and play fitting. In such cases battery going down is like to be the fuse or a failed cell causing the BMS to shut down.

Might be worth searching for the vendor data sheet.

Clive

I’ve made myself unpopular on the forum a few times by daring to question the value of advice based on experience rather than checking the state of play today.   Sorry chaps, but having grey hair and a successful career in the past does not automatically guarantee we know what we are talking about!   Ironic then that I may have been caught out myself!

After reading Clive’s post suggesting Lithium batteries for motorbikes have internal management systems that make plug and play possible, I reviewed how up-to-date my understanding of battery technology is.   The answer is “not very”, at least 15 years since I dug into the type of battery fitted to bikes!

What we old-chaps tend to miss is that technology marches on, sometimes very rapidly, causing the value of our experience to degrade.   Batteries are a case in point!   My post was based on me remembering the state of play when Lithium batteries were still primitive, as were their chargers.  In particular, the market was a mixture of plain batteries and those containing more-or-less intelligence.

Back then, for best results a matching charger was essential, and not getting it right took years off the life of the battery.  Newer technologies such as NiCADs and Li-ion were fussier than older types like NiFe and Lead Acid, though Lead Acid car-batteries in my fathers day were high-maintenance – he owned a hygrometer!  And they tended to fail when winter frosts arrived, due to tired plates falling apart when called on to crank a cold-engine with a contact-breaking ignition system.  No battery technology is perfect – far from it.

Actually, it’s fairly obvious that batteries requiring special chargers are a pain in the butt!   Therefore, engineers no doubt were quickly put to solving the problem.  One way is to put a smart controller inside the battery that adapts to whatever the user plugs in.  So, it could recognise anything between:

• Plain charger – controller responds by refusing to charge, or by doing so slowly in a safe mode that minimises the damage.
• Smart charger matched to battery  – controller accepts the charger knows what it’s doing, and allows the charger to take command, optimising charge rate and balancing the cells etc.

As the controllers are electronic, they have a much faster development cycle than mechanical systems, with major change possible within a 5 year cycle.  Conclusion: when it comes to Lithium Batteries I’m probably dangerously out-of-date!

Last thought – ignoring charger mismatch possibilities, it seems to me that batteries fitted to motorbikes are far from mollycoddled.  They’re on the small side, exposed to the weather, and liable to more starts relative to the recharge time than cars doing the same journey.   My neighbour and I commuted to the same workplace, me by car, him on a self-starting motorbike.   His journey time was always less than a third of mine, so his exposed cold battery might not have time to recharge properly.   In comparison, my car battery was protected from the weather, warmed by the engine,  and me having to crawl through traffic gave it longer to recharge.  In terms of rapid journey time, the bike was brilliant, but getting there quickly did the battery no favours!

Dave

 

 

[Ian ParkinParticipant @ianparkin39383]

Just an update on what i have discovered and done with the system on the bike..

the very newish alternator (Alton 3 phase) didn’t seem to be outputting much with an electric drill at 1800 rpm driving it a headlight bulb at 50 watts wasn’t very bright..Alton in 20 years are now up to the 5th iteration of their kit so i bought the newest and fitted that with a new regulator…this is supposedly a 200 watt unit..

the wiring was a bit of a big rats nest all with the British bullet connectors so i decided to do a complete re wire using a moto gadget mo unit

This like a small PLC for motorbikes theres one thickish cable from the battery to that lower 6mm allen cap bolt then all the inputs are switched to earth by push to make pushbuttons all the outputs are positive so one wire to each item..and then onto earth..so indicators ,lights, stops light,starter,power to ignition,horn.

the handlebar controls which i have 5 buttons are sent to a little gadget so only one wire from the handlebars needs to go to the unit

it connects to a smartphone so when you come close to the bike its unlocks then you can start it etc…walk away after the ride and it locks and sets the alarm also it handles all fuse duty’s

I also fitted a new noco battery slightly bigger than what was fitted and a led headlight and led indicators

the moto gadget unit allows you to program all the parameters of all the system easily via the phone app. Like how long the indicators flash and how the brake lights work..

here’s the bike finished for now 

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

I seem to have gone a bit green!

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ! That’s nice ! Noel.

[Ian ParkinParticipant @ianparkin39383]

A pic of the main attraction ( to me at least)

[Author]

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