Moore & Wright Product changes

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Having mislaid my M&W 6″/150mm ER206F flexible steel rule – mercifully temporarily – I reluctantly ordered a new one from Allendale.

I noticed that the webpage somewhere carried a statement that it was 1mm wide, but since a 1mm wide steel rule is patently ludicrous for any normal use, I dismissed it as a typo by webpage data entry personnel.

When it arrived, I found that the 1mm dimension was real, but referred to the thickness, not the width.

So I now have an ER206F that is distinctly inflexible. I’d thought that the ‘F’ was there to denote ‘flexible’, ie. springy steel, like the old one – in fact all the old ones I’ve ever owned and lost.

M&W seem to be part of Bowers Group, and when I contacted them they just replied that the page had notified the 1mm dimension.

Rightly or wrongly, I now have the impression that no-one nominally employed by or for M&W in these times has any understanding of the purpose or use of the equipment they have branded with their logo.

Though it’s a relatively low-cost item, I think this is actually more than a bit sad.

[Grindstone CowboyParticipant @grindstonecowboy]

Interestingly, a search for Moore & Wright ER206F brings up a few sites, including Allendale, where the thickness is stated as 0.4mm, which sounds like what you wanted, and it would seem they have supplied the wrong item.

For example at Machine DRO  or the Allendale offering. but both are out of stock so they possibly substituted something else?

The Allendale E206 (without the F) looks to be what you got.

Rob

Links to https://www.machine-dro.co.uk/moore-and-wright-150mm-6-dual-sided-engineers-rule-er206f

Links to https://www.allendale-metrology.co.uk/moore-and-wright-150mm-6-dual-sided-engineers-rule-er206f

Links to https://www.allendale-metrology.co.uk/150mm-6-moore-wright-engineers-rules-1mm-wide-meb-er206

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Odd,  Allendale’s website is clear that the rule is 0.4mm thick:

As the thing was bought from Allendale, and doesn’t match their description, I’d expect Allendale to refund or replace, unless Mick bought from a different spec.   M&W and Bowers Group are irrelevant because Allendale are the supplier and Mick is the Customer.

Me banging on about the dubious value of trade and brand-names is a hobby horse I know, but my advice is not to expect much of them.   They usually represent commercial entities, and don’t guarantee anything.   Much depends on the commercial attitude of the company, some work hard to maintain the credibility of their brands, others don’t give a hoot.

Nothing wrong with M&W who appear to sell mid-range metrology products rather than the unaffordable best.   The  name is owned by Bowers, who are part of Spear and Jackson, which is a trading name of Neill Tools Limited.  I don’t think knowing that helps.

Times have changed.   In 1906 Frank Moore started a small company that knew all about the stuff they made and sold.  Not unusual then back then, but personal service started to disappear in the 1970s.  Unless it’s expensive, purchasing today is much less conversational and stuff is usually retailed through an unskilled supply chain.  It’s become hard for a consumer to talk to anyone who knows a technical product inside-out, and possible that no-one knows any details.   This is why ArcEuro shine compared with ebay box-shifters:  there’s a good chance ArcEuro can answer technical queries about their product line.   Not perfect!  As expertise is hard to recruit and train I’d be amazed if all Ketan’s employees are technically savvy, but Arc Euro generally do a good job in the help department.   I’ve also got sense out of Warco, though I had to ask them a specific question; they weren’t able work out what I was after by decoding my vague symptoms and terminological errors!

By the by, a £3000 hobby lathe is not expensive!  If you want the personal touch, buy a £250k CNC machine…

Dave

 

 

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Allendale do advertise the 0,4 mm thick rule as MEB-ER206F, but the page carries an ‘Out Of Stock’ warning.

They also advertise their part no. MEB-ER206 as 1 mm ‘wide’.

But the one they sent me, like their webpage pic, still carries the engraved code ER206F between the 1 and 2 inch markings.

Commercially they’ve got me bang to rights because their ack and invoice both say MEB-ER206 and put in the 1 mm wide bit that I thought wasn’t to be taken seriously – after all, presumably they still do the 19mm wide version for those who want rigid.

To me, this looks like a lazy phase-out job by someone trying to cut down on material varieties and costs for whoever actually makes them.

We’ll see if the 0,4 mm version ever reappears.

[mgnbukParticipant @mgnbuk]

There is a Kennedy branded flexible 6″ rule listed by Zoro on Ebay

While not M & W & not directly addressing what you have been supplied vs. what you wanted, this might offer an alternative. I found Kennedy stuff (originally a Cromwell Tools brand – Grangers now own Zoro and Cromwell Tools) to be well made when I had cause to buy it when I was working.

Nigel B.

[Grindstone CowboyParticipant @grindstonecowboy]

I’d guess it’s a case of using the wrong photograph on the E206 page then.

Rob

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

A tad unfortunate that Allendale Metrology should the firm that doesn’t recognise the 0.6mm difference in thickness !

What’s in a name … eh ?!

MichaelG.

[MacolmParticipant @macolm]

I have a beautifully made Starrett C331-300 flexible rule (300mm x 11.5mm x 0.4mm, mm one side, inch on other) (other sizes & lengths also), but unfortunately they no longer seem available in the UK. They do seem to be available in the USA though at eyewatering prices, but it may be worth looking for second hand.

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

I wonder where these branded products are made nowerdays. Jacobs chucks are still expensive, but quality control varies greatly. I have had an Eclipse 171 automatic centre punch for over 20 years and have just bought another one brand new, it looks identical, but the old one has the country of origin on it (UK) but not on the new one.

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

I have a certain and sure way of finding any lost or misplaced item. You search high and low making sure you can’t possibly find it, convince yourself it has gone for good and so buy it again. Then, the very moment the replacement arrives you find the original item staring you in the face exactly where it should have been in the first place. This method of finding lost items works every time for me without fail!

[old mart]

On old mart Said:

I wonder where these branded products are made nowerdays…

Almost anywhere in the world it’s cheap.   Manufacturing has been heavily deskilled, and a modern installation needn’t rely on trained operatives.  Instead, high-end machines are set-up by a relatively small team of experts and operated by unskilled low-paid locals.   In these regimes, quality can be set to whatever level is required, anything from cheap and nasty to aerospace.

Manufacturing nations follow much the same trajectory.   They enter the game by making cheap tat, but because there’s very little profit in it, they gradually move up-market.  As their standard of living rises, it becomes harder to recruit cheap workers, many of whom having been educated, prefer not to spend their lives minding machines.

Birmingham England was once world famous for tat, and were later out-tatted by Belgium and the USA.  In the early 20th century Germany swamped the USA, who were leaving tat behind, with cheap goods.  Cheap German tat gave us the phrase ‘on the fritz’.    Tat production moved later to mittle-europa, with honourable contributions from Spain and Italy, after which the far-east took on that role.

Making tat is a temporary phase.  ‘Made in Japan’ was once a synonym for complete rubbish.  Not so today –  Japan is high-end, as are the manufactured products of the UK, Germany, USA and all the other early manufacturing nations.   Now they make expensive premium products, think CAT machines and aerospace rather than plastic clothes pegs and toasters, and millions of jobs have gone!

China is mid-way through the process, with India trailing a little behind.   Both countries have a mix of low-end primitive enterprise and state-of-the-art technology.    As the proportion of state of the art rises, so it becomes more difficult in that country to make a living out of tat.   There is still demand for it because customers are always looking for the cheapest way of getting what they want, which opens to door to other undeveloped countries joining the game.   Quite likely in 20 years that China will be flooded with tat originating from Africa or unlikely South American nations!    Also possible that low-end manufacturing could restart in the west, but only if labour costs drop significantly due to a major economic collapse – maybe a big chunk of service sector is a bubble.

On average the way manufacturing shifts internationally to the cheapest provider makes us richer.   UK consumers don’t have to subsidise low-productivity British firms,  and British firms don’t have to compete for workers who can get well-paid comfy jobs in the more profitable service sector.     People tend to follow the money, which grows the economy in some areas whilst shrinking others.  Of course there are serious disadvantages too!

At the moment most branded products come from China.  I’m not a betting man, but predict China will face increasing competition in my lifetime from India, with several others waiting in the wings.  As a way of making a living, manufacturing is brutal.   What worked for the UK, USA and others in the previous millennium isn’t profitable today.   It’s essential to adapt and change.

Dave

[mark costello 1Participant @markcostello1]

What I have seen on the ‘net is that when Africa gets it’s act together it will swamp China and it is so big it will take a very long time to even the score up.

[mark costello 1]

On mark costello 1 Said:

What I have seen on the ‘net is that when Africa gets it’s act together it will swamp China and it is so big it will take a very long time to even the score up.

Don’t hold your breath. No.1 ingredient for industrial development requiring massive investment is political stability, of which there is little sign in Africa any time soon. Sad, because they have massive natural resources and lovely people who deserve better than what they have in today’s world.

[old mart]

On old mart Said:

I wonder where these branded products are made nowerdays. Jacobs chucks are still expensive, but quality control varies greatly. I have had an Eclipse 171 automatic centre punch for over 20 years and have just bought another one brand new, it looks identical, but the old one has the country of origin on it (UK) but not on the new one.

I think it is no secret that almost all that old brand name stuff is mostly made in China these days. The parent company often provides its own skeleton staff to supervise quality control, or just monitors it by sampling and testing from afar in order to protect their brand name reputation.

A smaller percentage is made in India under similar conditions. Even the new BSA Gold Star motorcycles are now made in India by a large industrial conglomerate car and truck maker. And are better quality than anything that ever came out of Birmingham. The owners manual no longer includes instructions on how to spend a pleasant Saturday afternoon decarbonising your piston and grinding the valves on a regular basis. Instead, the engines (Rotax-based) will run 100,000-miles-plus without being opened up.

Back to chucks: Jacobs chucks, like Rohm, these days produce and supply a wide range of chucks at different quality levels. You can buy the less expensive Jacobs or Rohm chucks and they are ok but so-so. Or you can buy their more expensive chucks and get better quality.

[Mick B1]

On Mick B1 Said:

Allendale do advertise the 0,4 mm thick rule as MEB-ER206F, but the page carries an ‘Out Of Stock’ warning.

They also advertise their part no. MEB-ER206 as 1 mm ‘wide’.

But the one they sent me, like their webpage pic, still carries the engraved code ER206F between the 1 and 2 inch markings.

Commercially they’ve got me bang to rights because their ack and invoice both say MEB-ER206 and put in the 1 mm wide bit that I thought wasn’t to be taken seriously – after all, presumably they still do the 19mm wide version for those who want rigid.

To me, this looks like a lazy phase-out job by someone trying to cut down on material varieties and costs for whoever actually makes them.

We’ll see if the 0,4 mm version ever reappears.

At a quick guess, I would say their Chinese supplier sent them a batch of 1mm “wide” rules mislabelled as the ER206F thin model.  (Quite possibly deliberately because they had run out of the thin material and they needed to fulfil their quota. Centrally controlled economy will do that.)

So M&W are selling them off as ER206 thick models, despite the mislabelling. That would explain why the thin F model is listed as “Out of Stock”. They will probably come back into stock when their supplier sources some more thin material and the container makes its way through the Suez etc.

It’s one of the joys of international supply lines and “Just in Time” production, which was known as “Not Quite in Time” production when Mitsubishi took over the Chrysler car factory where I served my time and introduced it. No warehouses full of components taking up space and capital, but no fallback when things go wrong either. Works well in small Japan with closely interconnected companies, not so well in today’s sprawling global world of every man, and company, for himself.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

When I was working in Production Control in engineering works with heavily overcommitted component production capacity, some used to say we were working to a Just Too Late principle. JIT is a toxic discipline IMO, because it pushes the requirement to hold inventory back down the supply chain onto the smaller businesses that can least withstand fluctuations in demand.

Hopper’s hypothesis is completely plausible.

What it illustrates is that once cutting-edge brands that, even as they closed their own manufacturing operations, asserted their own design and QA authority over their products, actually have no real-world capability to maintain that authority.

[steveh2024Participant @steveh2024]

An interesting conversation. It seems to me that the only way that western companies can compete and continue to be able to charge a premium for their products is to excel at design, innovation and quality.  If I see all those elements in a tool (or any product) then I will definitely consider  paying that premium (or at least where, for me, that seems worthwhile).  I don’t own their product but I think a company like Apple exactly illustrates that principle.  The other important factor at work is the need to get away from buying products that because of their poor quality quickly end up in landfill.

 

[Hopper]

On Hopper Said:

On mark costello 1 Said:

What I have seen on the ‘net is that when Africa gets it’s act together it will swamp China and it is so big it will take a very long time to even the score up.

Don’t hold your breath. No.1 ingredient for industrial development requiring massive investment is political stability, of which there is little sign in Africa any time soon. Sad, because they have massive natural resources and lovely people who deserve better than what they have in today’s world.

This is true at the moment, with far too many countries saddled with incompetent and corrupt leaders, a problem not uniquely African!   However, many other nations have moved away from similar problems, usually by discovering that fair trade generates far more wealth than get rich quick schemes and political dogmatism. It’s never easy, and there are always winners and losers.

China is a fascinating example.   Somehow a previously inefficient one-party Communist government has managed to absorb and successfully exploit capitalist methods on a gigantic scale. Odd because Capitalist principles are fundamentally rejected by Communist dogma.  It’s an extraordinary display of cognitive dissonance, and it might not last.   China’s economy might go pop.

China’s success must be exceptionally hard to understand in the US where the notion that any form of socialism is harmful is deeply embedded and strongly reinforced by the belief that economic success depends entirely on applying Conservative principles.  Unfortunately the real world is more complicated.  Given today’s range of challenges what does the West need to change in order to remain wealthy and influential?

All I can be sure of is that change is inevitable, and it’s safer to adapt than resist.   Look for competent politicians rather than those whose lack of imagination confines them to right or left-wing dogma.

Dave

[SillyOldDuffer]

On SillyOldDuffer Said:

[…] China is a fascinating example.   Somehow a previously inefficient one-party Communist government has managed to absorb and successfully exploit capitalist methods on a gigantic scale. Odd because Capitalist principles are fundamentally rejected by Communist dogma.  It’s an extraordinary display of cognitive dissonance, and it might not last.   […]

Very much so, and perhaps nowhere better expressed than in Apple’s relationship with China … Masses of exquisitely made [I nearly wrote crafted] items, ‘Designed in California’ and ‘Made in China’

A perfect win-win symbiotic relationship? … or is there some hideous confrontation that goes unnoticed? … I know not!

MichaelG.

[Author]

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