MOI cad. It looks good, is it?

[lee websterParticipant @leewebster72680]

I know there are some users of the cad programme MOI, on this site. Before I pose a question to MOI themselves, I will ask it here.

The trial is a very generous 90 days, Does the computer have to be online all the time, or just for the download?

Lee

Edited By lee webster on 17/05/2023 17:42:49

[lee websterParticipant @leewebster72680]

[lee websterParticipant @leewebster72680]

I had better ask about different formats it will import and export.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Lee.

MoI never needs to be online for anything except for downloading updates. It can also be installed onto a USB stick and used on any other computer as well.

File formats are:

Import: 3DM (native format), IGES, STEP, SAT, DXF, SVG, PDF and Illustrator. It will also import OBJ and FBX files, which are converted to sufaces/solids on import.

Export: 3DM, IGES, STEP, SAT, DXF, SVG, PDF, Illustrator, FBX, LWO, STL, OBJ, SKP and 3DS.

Martin.

[lee websterParticipant @leewebster72680]

Thanks Martin. I like the look of MOI, it also seems to have two features I use a lot. Boolean add/cut, and slice a body or part, with a plane. I did send an email to MOI asking these questions and the price if I buy.

Lee

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Some of the work it can do is pretty awesome, advertising and artistic type outputs

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Have a shufty over here: http://moi3d.com/4.0/docs/moi_command_reference.htm

Nice, concise eplanation of each tool in MoI v4. I'm currently running a beta of v5, which is going to be a worthwhile update.

I'm happy to demo any features you might be interested in.

Martin.

 

Edited By blowlamp on 17/05/2023 18:56:18

[lee websterParticipant @leewebster72680]

Thanks for the info Ady1 and Martin. That's a very handy reference list, very well featured.

I have used Designspark Mechanical to do nearly all my work. This is a screenshot of a 4 cylinder engine. On the left is the tree with all the different parts or bodies. Only one body can be active for editing, and new bodies can either added as a separate addition to an existing body , or as a completely new body . Does MOI use someting like this tree layout? I have expanded the cylinders body to show that it contains separate bodies for the liners and the cylinders. Having the same name doesn't create a conflict. Yhe tick mark next to each body is to hide or show it.

Thanks for the help. Poor old Design Spark is getting fewer features as it progresses, unless you want to pay a monthly rental.

Lee

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

I think the Scene Browser would be the equivalent in MoI. This Video should give you an idea of how objects can be filtered & organised for further work.

Martin.

[lee websterParticipant @leewebster72680]

I had a reply from MOI by a man called Michael. He has answered all the questions I put to him about downloading MOI, and the price in UK pounds if I decide to buy. If it does what I what it to do then the price is more than fair. Even though Designspark won't export a file in a format MOI understands, I've come across a way of extracting each body from the DS file in a format MOI can understand.

Lee

Edit.

I had already posted this before I saw your video Martin. I am very impressed!

Edited By lee webster on 17/05/2023 20:31:13

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by lee webster on 17/05/2023 20:25:51:

I had a reply from MOI by a man called Michael. He has answered all the questions I put to him about downloading MOI, and the price in UK pounds if I decide to buy. If it does what I what it to do then the price is more than fair. Even though Designspark won't export a file in a format MOI understands, I've come across a way of extracting each body from the DS file in a format MOI can understand.

Lee

Hi Lee.

Michael Gibson is the author of MoI and offers support that is second to none. He is also the author of Rhino Cad, so is a real expert in his field.

Download it and have some fun.

Martin.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

MOI doesn't do assembly/movement does it?

Makes MOI a dead duck for me

If I was an artist I'd deffo be interested

[lee websterParticipant @leewebster72680]

Martin.

I should be downloading MOI tomorrow. I will see if I am going to get on with it, and if I do I might start a new post about my progress.

Ady1. I must admit, the assembly/movement option in Alibre was tempting, but if I feel the need for that I can use Solid Edge. If I ever find out how to use that feature.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by lee webster on 17/05/2023 22:21:48:

Martin.

I should be downloading MOI tomorrow. I will see if I am going to get on with it, and if I do I might start a new post about my progress.

Lee.

I would be interested to see how you get on with MoI, so it's a from me if you take us through your learning curve.

Martin.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by Ady1 on 17/05/2023 21:58:17:

MOI doesn't do assembly/movement does it?

Makes MOI a dead duck for me

If I was an artist I'd deffo be interested

You are right Ady, MoI doesn't have those particular tools, but it does have a well developed range of modelling tools that aren't necessarily available in similarly priced CAD packages.

Martin.

[lee websterParticipant @leewebster72680]

Sorry Martin, but it's a from me. Just a few minutes into MOI I discovered that it doesn't have an extruded cut, an essential part of my designing. Also, to create something like a OHV head for a single cylinder engine would have taken a minimum of 12 bodies that would have to be either boolean'd together, or removed, unless there is another way. I was however, very impressed with the size of the download file. They packed a lot of programme into a small space.

I think I have been spoiled by DesignSpark which is so easy to use, and with a lot of features (except mirror).

I am still looking for a replacement for DS, and the only option I have found is SolidEdge.

Thanks for your help.

Lee

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by lee webster on 18/05/2023 21:30:17:

Sorry Martin, but it's a from me. Just a few minutes into MOI I discovered that it doesn't have an extruded cut, an essential part of my designing. Also, to create something like a OHV head for a single cylinder engine would have taken a minimum of 12 bodies that would have to be either boolean'd together, or removed…

Lee

Lee.

You can easily do an extruded through cut with curves, just by selecting the solid and a suitably placed curve and then doing a Boolean Difference.

The cylinder heads in your picture look simple enough, so I did a quick video of one way this could be done in MoI. A few more booleans and you could relieve the fins for the plug hole & stud holes. Dead easy.

Martin.

[John McNamaraParticipant @johnmcnamara74883]

Yes it does look promising. If only it included CAM apart from 3d printing many people have small routers and mills.
Sadly most low cost or free roads lead to Fusion 360 for that at the moment, a real pity.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by lee webster on 18/05/2023 21:30:17:

Sorry Martin, but it's a from me. Just a few minutes into MOI I discovered that it doesn't have an extruded cut, an essential part of my designing. Also, to create something like a OHV head for a single cylinder engine would have taken a minimum of 12 bodies that would have to be either boolean'd together, or removed, unless there is another way. I was however, very impressed with the size of the download file. They packed a lot of programme into a small space.

Lee

It's just different ways of doing the same thing and you probably need to give it more than a couple of hours to find out the way MOI works.

Going back to Nigel's early posts with teh nut and cylinder cover Martin got the same results with boolenes as I got with cuts. His recent video that just used the plan and section sketches is a lot less work than having to extrude that section, then do cuts for the two notched out areas, holes, rounding and filleting etc

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by John McNamara on 19/05/2023 02:06:39:

Yes it does look promising. If only it included CAM apart from 3d printing many people have small routers and mills.
Sadly most low cost or free roads lead to Fusion 360 for that at the moment, a real pity.

John.

There's no doubt that Fusion 360 is a very capable package, that I have used, but the fact that I could never 'own' it always sat uneasy with me. I really do not like the idea of software as a subscription service, so I prefer to buy elsewhere.

Martin.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by JasonB on 19/05/2023 07:36:49:

Posted by lee webster on 18/05/2023 21:30:17:

Sorry Martin, but it's a from me. Just a few minutes into MOI I discovered that it doesn't have an extruded cut, an essential part of my designing. Also, to create something like a OHV head for a single cylinder engine would have taken a minimum of 12 bodies that would have to be either boolean'd together, or removed, unless there is another way. I was however, very impressed with the size of the download file. They packed a lot of programme into a small space.

Lee

It's just different ways of doing the same thing and you probably need to give it more than a couple of hours to find out the way MOI works.

Going back to Nigel's early posts with teh nut and cylinder cover Martin got the same results with boolenes as I got with cuts. His recent video that just used the plan and section sketches is a lot less work than having to extrude that section, then do cuts for the two notched out areas, holes, rounding and filleting etc

Jason.

I agree, just a different way of getting the job done as I think MoI is classed as a Direct Modeler whereas Alibre & Fusion 360 are Parametric.

You might be able to do the same thing in your version of Alibre as I did in my last video by extruding two solids that intersect and then doing a boolean intersect.

Martin.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Yes I can do it in Pro but it can't be done in Atom, Rough and ready one here, "T" shaped plan (red) and the "D" shape with fins (blue) using Boolene intersect

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by blowlamp on 19/05/2023 10:46:01:

Posted by JasonB on 19/05/2023 07:36:49:

Posted by lee webster on 18/05/2023 21:30:17:

…

…

…

… just a different way of getting the job done as I think MoI is classed as a Direct Modeler whereas Alibre & Fusion 360 are Parametric.

…

Martin.

That's my understanding. It means that MOI is better at some things than parametric modellers, and vice versa. In the middle, both do the same job equally well. The differences and overlaps make it difficult for a beginner to choose which is best for him, unless he understands what his needs are.

MOI is good at curves, making it an excellent choice for 3d-print modelling. Also photo-realistic images, and designing decorative objects. It also appears to be easy to learn, and can do flat stuff as well. All considerable advantages if that's what's needed, but not for me. My needs are more 'mechanical engineering' , and although Solid Edge has surface tools that can do similar to MOI, I've never used them.

What I want is:

• The ability to create and edit 3D engineering parts, to be 3D printed or machined and brazed etc. Most of what I design is machined flat or round, not curved.
• Material definitions so the software can calculate mass and centre of gravity etc
• Sheet metal parts to be unfolded by the software to show where cut-outs are needed before folding in the real world, plus folding tools
• Finite element analysis to identify stress points.
• First Angle or Third Angled dimensioned technical drawings generated from the 3D model for workshop use.
• Most important, the ability to Assemble many parts into a complex model:
  • Each part an individual file, for version control
  • Editing a part updates the Assembly
  • Able to replace any part in an assembly with a different one
  • Assemblies within assemblies
  • Parts in the assembly to be joined realistically – sliders, rotations, fixed etc
  • Joints to move correctly, so that movement of one part causes its neighbours to respond in an animation, with interference alerts and other warnings.
  • Create new parts from referenced from existing parts in an assembly, and adding the new part to the assembly. For example, an entire car could be created from an assembly containing a wheel by defining a half-shaft to fit the wheel, then a differential grown off the axle, a prop-shaft to fit the diff, a universal joint on the end of the prop-shaft, from which a gear box is developed, and so on until an air-freshener is dangling from the mirror. In this mode, dimensions are inherited from existing objects, and don't have to be looked up. And later on, the half-shaft can be modified to grow the suspension off it.

Parametric is well-suited to designing complex assemblies. But of course the extra complication is a burden if features like Assembly aren't needed in your workshop.

I use Solid Edge at the moment because it does most the above and isn't in the cloud. I found harder to learn than Fusion, which I like very much, but Fusion is a cloud product, and restrictions added by Autodesk to the free version annoyed me enough to look elsewhere. Like many hobbyists, I'm awkwardly placed because don't make enough use of 3D-CAD to justify spending big money on it, even though the full versions are highly desirable. It's a compromise. Alibre is definitely a runner: if Community Solid Edge was withdrawn, and a full license too pricey, Alibre Atom does most of what I need with a short learning curve because it's similar to what I already know.

Maybe Solid Edge isn't a natural fit to my mindset, but I find it powerful rather than friendly. Synchronous mode comes with a multi-purpose steering wheel tool that does amazingly useful things, but is weird unless the operator understands a bunch of 'Design Intent' options as well. Once learnt stuff that takes a long time to do step by step in other CAD, is done very quickly by the wheel. Best for power users though, not beginners.

I often use FreeCAD for single parts, especially when 3D printing. It's free as in beer and speech. Main problem is its a little experimental guv, so somewhat prone to crash, and early attempts at the tooling aren't always user friendly. So far the Assembly features are primitive, but it's strong in other aspects. Main fault from my point of view is the sheer range of workbenches provided, most of which I don't need. I'd rather the project concentrated on Mechanical Engineering, but it seems the Architects, Ship designers, Surface Modellers and other CAD specialisms don't agree.

MOI is very tempting for that type of modelling. I like the look of Alibre as well – for other reasons.

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 19/05/2023 12:25:02

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Dave.

When you said this:

"MOI is good at curves, making it an excellent choice for 3d-print modelling. Also photo-realistic images, and designing decorative objects. It also appears to be easy to learn, and can do flat stuff as well. All considerable advantages if that's what's needed, but not for me. My needs are more 'mechanical engineering' , and although Solid Edge has surface tools that can do similar to MOI, I've never used them."

 

I must point out that MoI doesn't do photo-realistic images at all and it's not advertised anywhere that I know of for designing decorative objects, although you could do that if you wanted to.

MoI is perfectly capable of creating an accurate model of anything from a vase to a jet engine, but not in a parametric way. This is why it can export in SAT, IGES and STEP formats, etc. The v5 beta that I'm running also uses the ACIS modeling kernel as well as Solids++.

I'm fairly sure that the need to use surfaces will creep up on you as your designs change.

 

Martin.

 

Edited By blowlamp on 19/05/2023 13:57:28

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by blowlamp on 19/05/2023 13:56:43:

Dave.

When you said this:

"MOI is good at curves, making it an excellent choice for 3d-print modelling. Also photo-realistic images, and designing decorative objects. It also appears to be easy to learn, and can do flat stuff as well. All considerable advantages if that's what's needed, but not for me. My needs are more 'mechanical engineering' , and although Solid Edge has surface tools that can do similar to MOI, I've never used them."

I must point out that MoI doesn't do photo-realistic images at all and it's not advertised anywhere that I know of for designing decorative objects, although you could do that if you wanted to.

MoI is perfectly capable of creating an accurate model of anything from a vase to a jet engine, but not in a parametric way. This is why it can export in SAT, IGES and STEP formats, etc. The v5 beta that I'm running also uses the ACIS modeling kernel as well as Solids++.

I'm fairly sure that the need to use surfaces will creep up on you as your designs change.

Martin.

Have you read the MOI blurb, or looked at the Gallery Martin? MOI say, my bold: 'Focused on being easy to use, it's a great tool for designers and artists who want to construct accurate models.' Designers and artists rather than engineers. Examples:

The last MOI example represents a record turntable. It's a broadly correct and scaled external view that could be 3D printed as a model, used to illustrate a forum post, or published in a glossy magazine advert.

Great, so far as it goes, but tell me if I'm wrong: the turntable isn't an engineering model. It's an outer view of a turntable with nothing inside.

Alibre, SE, and Fusion are different. They get outer appearance almost as a side-effect of modelling all the internal parts. This type of CAD models engineering assemblies, where each part, maybe thousands of them, are designed sufficient to make or source a real one. There would be a motor, drive train, arm-linkages, and all the other fixtures and fittings necessary to make a real turntable, positioned inside the outer casing. The model will often include trivia like washers, bearings, o-rings, fuse-holders, and cable clips etc. so the overall weight is always known, and a full BOM available.

This type of CAD modelling is much more focussed on getting the engineering detail right than look, which is added later. The model of the arm assembly would be accurate enough to confirm that the counter-weight correctly balanced the cartridge, and also to swing across the record with the necessary geometry. After that the shiny good looks depicted by MOI are paint, putty and polish.

MOI focusses on selling, whilst parametric CAD focusses on manufacture. Both are important. The MOI turntable model has many features designed to make it look top-quality hi-tech, but which are unlikely to be functional. MOI is top-notch for that, hi-fi fanboys would buy that turntable I'm sure. My sort of CAD model focuses on the practical, where the MOI's sexy rear 'heat-sink' is implemented as some chrome-plated plastic fins stuck on the back, whilst the engineering design uses intelligently sized standard items clipped on the transistors. MOI doesn't need to model the heat capacity of heatsinks, modelling for production does.

There's a lot of overlap between the two approaches, but MOI punches hard at the artistic end, whilst Alibre and friends concentrate on engineering. In the middle both tools produce similar results, but I don't think MOI can model a jet engine as an assembly. How about a working lazy tong?

Dave

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