Model Engineer – Citizen Scientist

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

The Engineering Council in the UK controls this sort of thing through various professional bodies.

You start off at Engineering Technician, all the way up to Chartered Engineer. Technician Engineer is somewhere in the middle. That’s me.

[Geoff TheasbyParticipant @geofftheasby]

John Haining:

"What makes you think he [Marconi] was an amateur? He didn't qualify (but then as a member of a rich noble family he didn't need to) but attended lectures and labs at the universities of Bologna and Livorno. He went on to found the first highly successful radio company and won a Nobel Prize."

Well, qualifying in a subject relates to study and understanding, not wealth or lineage. Marconi was an "amateur" because the subject (Radio) didn't then exist as a study discipline. He was a pioneer, transmitting signals over greater & greater distances as he improved his apparatus. He, Tesla, Hertz, etc laid the foundations. Radio Amateurs discovered that the 'useless' short waves (3-30 MHz) actually enabled world-wide communication. The Titanic, meanwhile, was designed by naval architects, built by a well-established shipbuilders, using steel from respected metal founders, for a prestigious shipping company.

Geoff

Edited By Geoff Theasby on 03/07/2017 17:34:31

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

An optimist thinks the glass is half full. A pessimist thinks the glass is half empty. An engineer knows it's twice as big as it needs to be.

[ChrisBParticipant @chrisb35596]

Where I come from an Engineer must be a university graduate in one of the engineering subjects, and there are lots of branches – mechanical, electrical, network, IT, civil etc to name a few. I work in the aviation industry, specifically aircraft maintenance and we're called licensed aircraft engineers or certifying staff, but really and truly we are not… Most probably the title of Engineer comes from old tradition, just like doctors of ages ago…

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

OED definition of amateur: A person who engages in a pursuit, especially a sport, on an unpaid basis.

Marconi was certainly paid by the time his company was successful. Were the Google founders amateurs before they became successful? The difference is surely in the expectation of financial success on the part of an entrepreneur doing what hasn't been done before.

And the Titanic sank because it was driven at full speed into an iceberg, which holed 5 watertight compartments but the ship was designed only to withstand 4 being holed. Had they taken more notice of the ice warnings in force, gone slower, and kept a better lookout, and possibly followed a different but longer route, there might not have been a disaster. The ship was only specified to have enough lifeboats for about half its complement because of regulatory failings. It does not seem to me to have been an engineering failure. Incidentally the radio equipment on board and the operators were leased from Marconi's "amateur" company.

And you spelled my name wrong.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

OED definition of amateur: A person who engages in a pursuit, especially a sport, on an unpaid basis.

Marconi was certainly paid by the time his company was successful. Were the Google founders amateurs before they became successful? The difference is surely in the expectation of financial success on the part of an entrepreneur doing what hasn't been done before.

And the Titanic sank because it was driven at full speed into an iceberg, which holed 5 watertight compartments but the ship was designed only to withstand 4 being holed. Had they taken more notice of the ice warnings in force, gone slower, and kept a better lookout, and possibly followed a different but longer route, there might not have been a disaster. The ship was only specified to have enough lifeboats for about half its complement because of regulatory failings. It does not seem to me to have been an engineering failure. Incidentally the radio equipment on board and the operators were leased from Marconi's "amateur" company.

And you spelled my name wrong.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Interestingly, I saw a job poster up on a garage recently 'Wanted: Motor Technicians'.

I suppose we could all call ourselves 'colleagues'.

Neil

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 03/07/2017 21:11:21:

Interestingly, I saw a job poster up on a garage recently 'Wanted: Motor Technicians'.

I suppose we could all call ourselves 'colleagues'.

Neil

They seem to have been called that here for some years now. Job ads usually ask for "Automotive Technician". Then add in brakcets "(Motor Mechanic}" so readers know what they are talking about. Have to wonder what the point is. Likewise with ads calling for "Fabrication Technician (Boiler Maker)" and "Mechanical Technician (Fitter and Turner)".

Mostly I just call myself "pedantic old git spending too much time on the internet."

Edited By Hopper on 03/07/2017 23:46:02

[Geoff TheasbyParticipant @geofftheasby]

John,

I do apologise for the mispelling. My Titanic remark was meant as a joke. Indeed, by 1912 Marconi was no longer an 'amateur'. I do not classify professionals by their income or wealth. A professional attitude is one that is not dishonest, reckless, or hamfisted, but learned, skilled, able and adaptable. One can follow this philosophy whether one is paid or not. Yes, I would call the founders of Google, and other such innovative people, amateurs (At the time!) in that they were in at the beginnings of computers, the internet, and such, thinking of ways to use them for benefit as well as gain. So as well as Facebook, Google, Wikipedia, Uber, Amazon, YouTube, Spotify, there are hundreds of similar entrepreneurial activities. Amateur enthusiasts are big in game playing and App designing. Amazon itself has revolutionised retailing and book/record buying.

I know the how and why of the Titanic. Try the R100/R101 for a similar story.

Regards

Geoff

[PeroParticipant @pero]

Perhaps we could replace the word Engineer in ME and MEW with a suitable number of asterisks. That way everyone could choose the term that they felt best applied to them (although not necessarily the term that would be chosen by their partners).

Of even greater significance is that while the term Model applies to many but not all of the construction items in ME, it is much less relevant to the majority of those in MEW. Perhaps it is Model that needs to be changed, although I seem to remember that this was all discussed a few years ago. Time for a re–think and more pages of discourse please!

Interestingly, while I am university qualified in a scientific discipline and presumably entitled to describe myself as a Scientist, I am seldom described as such in my professional employment. However, I am a fully recognised member of what, in its field, is a prestigious Engineering society although I have no qualification at any level in Engineering. Go figure!

As I get older I find it less relevant what people call themselves, or what title other people may give them, it is their competence and common sense that keeps them employed. In the harsh world outside of the university it can take as much as three years to knock the PhD out of an employee and make them useful (if it hasn't happened after that time it is generally suggested that they consider finding their way back to a life in the university).

In the meantime I will fight my way into the workshop and continue to make big pieces of metal into smaller pieces of metal, usually wrongly, and call myself a B***** Fool.

Pero

(unnecessary capitalisation of titles by design not necessity )

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

The opposite of professional is unprofessional and the oppsite of amateur is mercenary. So in my book an amateur professional is someone who is proficient enough to teach and loves it so much they will do it for nothing.

All words can gather associative meanings wich distort their clarity. In such a way amateur sometimes gets associated with 'not quite the ticket' or somewhat substandard which is unfortunate. Generally the protection of a title or indeed the right to practice is driven by the desire to protect the trade which can range from the liscencing of surgeons to the exclusion of clockmakers who were not menbers of the guild.

I am by nature and inclination an engineer and would remain so even if I had not worked all my life as an electronics designer. Even so I have never bothered getting the official stamp of the professional body. All that would do is to allow me to put CEng MIEE in my title which just shows I am a member of the 'club'

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck its a duck, just maybe not an official duck.

I hope you enjoyed my take on the subject. I does seem to generate feeling every time it comes up.

regards Martin

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 04/07/2017 08:44:46:

The opposite of professional is unprofessional and the oppsite of amateur is mercenary. So in my book an amateur professional is someone who is proficient enough to teach and loves it so much they will do it for nothing.

All words can gather associative meanings wich distort their clarity. In such a way amateur sometimes gets associated with 'not quite the ticket' or somewhat substandard which is unfortunate.

Absolutely! I am put in mind of two excellent "amateur" books: "The Amateur's Lathe" by LH Sparey and "The Amateur's Workshop" by Ian Bradley. Both contain far and away more in-depth knowledge of their subjects than I was ever taught either at trade school or on the job as an apprentice "professional" Fitter and Turner. I learned a tremendous amount from both books in reading them over just the past couple of years, despite having done a "professional" apprenticeship and working in related "professional" trade work for a further 10-15 years back in the day. Hence, the amateur, doing it for the love of it as the name implies, is in many cases more learned and more skilled than the professional who does what is required to pass his exams and get his certificate and that is all.

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

The only time I quote qualifications in any meaningful way is when I want to wield a big stick to knock down people where I work who are trying to push contrary opinions over knowledge, training and experience. Inspectors can be the worst. I think some of them would claim the smell of a piece of steel is outside acceptable standards if they can't get their way sometimes.

Martin C

[Colin WhittakerParticipant @colinwhittaker20544]

In the UK if a male visitor introduces himself as an engineer the householder's response will often be to enquire whether he can take a look at the washing machine that is acting up. In Germany the same householder would rapidly introduce his unmarried daughter.

[Colin WhittakerParticipant @colinwhittaker20544]

As a happily retired professional engineer living in Thailand I sometimes browse the job vacancies in the UK to see what I could turn my hand to if I decided to return to the UK. However, it seems that any job vacancies that include the word engineer are almost invariably never for professional engineers and any job vacancies for graduate engineers are for the newly graduated. What job description should a professional engineer that doesn't wish to be a manager look for?

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Nothing that pays well Colin. All high paid engineers are managers. I have expirienced a number of attempts at creating a technical stream for people who don't want to manage and I've never seen it work well. The only way to really change things is to fill the house of commons with engineers. Perhaps that way we might get problems solve instead of just rebranded.

regards Martin

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

I'll fight anyone who says I'm not an engineer.

[Colin WhittakerParticipant @colinwhittaker20544]

Martin, My last experience of working was in a dual ladder organisation where as an engineering advisor I was often paid more than my manager. It worked well, at least for me, but I don't know how common this structure is/was and whether it now survives in my old oil field service company now that the head count has dropped by 50%.

There are a suprising number of Martin Kytes on LinkedIn. Are you the one in York?

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Colin Whittaker on 04/07/2017 09:48:26:

…

What job description should a professional engineer that doesn't wish to be a manager look for?

Alas such jobs are few and far between. It's because "the ability to supervise the technical and administrative work of others" is a key competence of a 'real' Engineer. Interesting that management and leadership of others are skills that a paper qualification can't guarantee. The ability to supervise certainly separates the likes of Isambard Kingdom Brunel from blokes in a shed however brilliant with tools they may be.

Dave

[Geoff TheasbyParticipant @geofftheasby]

I seem to recall that the entire Chinese Politburo is comprised of Engineers.

Also, for some years I worked as an electronics technician, assembling hundreds of large pcbs, each containing about 1000 surface mount components, hand soldered. I am not a qualified Technician, have held an amateur radio licence for 50 years next year, and made much of my own equipment and test gear. Am I a professional? I was paid for it, my boards 'worked'…

I wrote for 30-odd years without being paid for it. Newsletters, free publications, scurrilous circulars, unofficial school magazines and was rejected by Punch, Private Eye, Eyre Methuen, etc. I've been everywhere, Man… Wapping, Fleet Street, Bournemouth, Leeds, Soho, behind the bike sheds…

Geoff

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

No Colin, Cambridgeshire.

Martin

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Colin Whittaker on 04/07/2017 09:48:26:

As a happily retired professional engineer living in Thailand I sometimes browse the job vacancies in the UK to see what I could turn my hand to if I decided to return to the UK. However, it seems that any job vacancies that include the word engineer are almost invariably never for professional engineers and any job vacancies for graduate engineers are for the newly graduated. What job description should a professional engineer that doesn't wish to be a manager look for?

It's inevitable that the accomplishments of a one person are limited by time, space and number of hands, eyes etc.

To make the most of their talents, they need to be used as part of a team. Unfortunately it is not always appreciated that the best person to lead the team is rarely the one with the greatest skill at the task in hand, rather it is the one best able to take an overall perspective on a project, manage and handle interruptions and pressures that would disrupt the work of the team, solve and resolve conflicts and problems, create the environment where each team member can achieve their best and inspire loyalty and enthusiasm for the task in hand. It helps greatly for them to understand and have experience in the work at hand, but it is not essential for them to have 'worked their way up through the ranks'.

Neil

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 04/07/2017 09:59:34:

The only way to really change things is to fill the house of commons with engineers. Perhaps that way we might get problems solve instead of just rebranded.

Or you might get the Morris Marina of governments.

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

when I started as an apprentice, many years ago, there was an man who was a top welder. One of the men said to me " see that chap- he'll never get to be foreman. He's too good at his job. " Stuck with me all these years.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

If you are a professional engineer, and still want to get your hands dirty, you'r probably best to start your own business,then you can decide who does what.

Ian S C

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