ML10 questions

[1957jmhParticipant @1957jmh]

I’m just looking at a ml10 lathe locally and there are a number of issues – which I don’t mind because it’s fairly cheap but it depends on what kind of work is required to fix…

1. Crossslide has a couple of obvious problems – the lever to engage the lead screw has to be fastened down with a bungee cord to keep it engaged…… And there is also tremendous backlash and looseness on the hand wheel. Both of these problems are apparent in this link  https://youtu.be/KexEiIkYSUk

2. https://youtube.com/shorts/HsaK6mdZ7OQ?si=X-nhByRm8xcwOkv4.

The tailstock has this play which worries me a little – there is no play when it’s locked but how can I be sure it’s parallel to the bed?

I don’t mind stripping things down to investigate these things further but I’m just looking for some pointers as to what to look for. The ways look fairly decent with no obvious wear marks or indentations, but I did find 0.02 mm difference on the width of the front way between tail and head. I’m also going to check spindle run out once I’ve found a mag base for my DTI

 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

It might just be swarf packed in the nut stopping it fully engaging but having seen the other wear I would say it will be a major project as leadscrew and nut are probably heavily worn

Unlikely the tailstok will be inline when locked, might be able to build up the sides where thyr fit between the ways but I’d also look for a loose barrel as it seems tto have had a hard life.

I’d walk away as it will be a full rebuild and regrind not just a strip, clean and oil job.

[Clive Brown 1Participant @clivebrown1]

Could be a Myford, but it’s not an ML10.

[Martin of WickParticipant @martinofwick]

Firstly, although not fully visible in the picture, it does not look like any ML10 that I have ever seen. May be some older myford model or a ‘bitsa’. Call up yer wudaweb browser for images of ML10 or the lathes.uk site.

Secondly, unless the vendor is paying you to take it away, politely walk, nay, run away! In its current state it is beyond any economical restoration (unless you enjoy an expensive and trying project). Just tot up what it will cost you to replace all leadscrews/nuts etc and then add somewhere north of £300 for regrinding (assuming you could find anyone qualified who was willing to do it). And, what is your time worth?

Thirdly, irrespective of what you might perceive on e-bay etc, the bottom has more or less dropped out of the market for old iron of the common kind. Even on gumtree, lathes.UK etc. I have seen quite respectable looking ML10s posted for the £500 to £700 and ML7s for £700 to £900.  No idea what the final sold price was but I would guess it is always negotiable.

 

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

No way is that an ML10, take the advice of the previous correspondent and run for the hills. There are fairly decent lathes available at reasonable prices,  in fact there’s a Boxford AUD on HWS this morning. A bit bigger than an ML10 and probably twice the lathe an ML10 ever could be. I have an ML10 in excellent condition that I acquired from the estate of a late friend for sentimental reasons. It was being inappropriately stored and likely to go to ruin, so I bought it out of respect for my late friend’s memory who was a very particular man in every way. I have never used the lathe and never will so if you really want an ML10 send me a PM for the details because it is in superb condition, I can assure you.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Umm, I don’t like the look of it either.  It needs attention, perhaps a lot of it, and spares are hard to find.  I think this lathe has probably had a hard working life, not cosseted in a genteel hobby workshop.  Two factors might make it worth taking on though:

• it’s very cheap!!!
• whether or not the purchaser has the time, inclination, tools, and skills needed to take on a restoration project.  I machine metal in order to get other jobs done and having to fix tools before they can be used is annoying.  But Model Engineering is a broad church in which plenty of others thoroughly enjoy repair work.  Fixing stuff is very satisfying – if that’s your thing.   What’s the lathe for?

Bear in mind when buying a dubious machine is that sorting it out is likely to be expensive in terms of time, and possibly money too.   Could be the bungee cord is only needed because the half-nut is badly worn, and – though it might be more fuss than expected – they can be replaced.  Unfortunately, if the lead-screw is also worn, it too will have to be replaced, more dosh.   A need to regrind the bed is bad news, as are worn bearings and other appurtenances at the headstock end.  Check for missing parts too – finding an absent change gear, or modifying one to fit, probably won’t be easy.   And when a lathe is in poor mechanical condition, it’s not unlikely to find the electrics are also iffy.   Total cost of ownership might rise to the point where the money would have bought a second-hand machine in good condition, or a new Far Eastern hobby lathe.

By the by watch out for the word ‘Myford’ in a sales pitch.  Myford have a deservedly good reputation that’s led to their machines attracting premium prices even in poor condition.   And, even worse, sellers often claim lathes and spares are Myford when they’re not.  Buyer beware; reputable brand-names are no guarantee.  When buying second-hand, forget the brand, and double check the condition. Paying over the odds for junk is always painful, even if was made by Rolls Royce!

As far as I know there isn’t a book, pamphlet or magazine article on what to look for when buying a second-hand machine tool.   Anyone know of one?

Dave

 

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Dave,

Quoting from my Post #364141

There is, however, one major caveat … If the bed is significantly worn on an ML10, it is [or at least was considered by Myford at Beeston] beyond refurbishment.

MichaelG.

.

Reference:   http://modelengineeringwebsite.com/Used_lathe.html

Here’s the punchline:

Note: It is not possible to do a full bed and saddle regrind on an ML10, Speed10, or Diamond 10 Lathe. At best the top of the bed can have 0.005in. (0.127mm) removed, a once only operation, so your visual inspection is crucial.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 27/07/2018 15:00:39

.

http://modelengineeringwebsite.com/Used_lathe.html

The author [ Chris Moore ] knew his stuff 🙂

MichaelG.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Please lathe spotters spend some time learning about great British lathes from Lathes.co.uk. This is clearly a Drummond M-type with the apron modified. If it is being called a Myford because some part of it has that name on it then it is a post 1940 one when the design was handed to Myford so Drummond could concentrate in war work. Find the serial stamped on teh raf right of the bed and you can look up its build date.
Play in the cross slide is normal lack of adjustment and tailstocks on small lathes are not meant to be aligned when not locked.
Sure it will be worn after 70 years.
Price on ebay would be £150 to £200 depending on location though there are some repainted roundbeds around at the moment at about that.

By the way the rust on it is the normal result of thinking that a shed that is not 100% sealed is somehow dry let alone the idiots who add ventilation holes. Condensation people condensation is your enemy.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

It is not a Myford ML1, 2,3 or 4, they had dovetail beds and no gap, as I recall

It looks to be older than those. Could date from the 20s, or even before!

Check the lathes website, for clues as to the parentage..

The 7 Series was launched in 1947, and it certainly is not one of them.

The lathe MIGHT be an interesting project.  It may be possible to reduce / eliminate the end float on the Cross Slide feedscrew, fairlty easily. The Tailstock would merit further investigation.

But not a job for the uninitiated!

If machine tool restoration is your interest, you know what you are doing, and the price is suitably low, it might be worth a gamble. But still a gamble.  As you solve one problem, another might come to light, so that a bargain becomes a time and money pit!

But as a “plug and play” nachine it is a non starter, IMO

Howard

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

https://www.lathes.co.uk/drummond-m-type-post-1924/

[1957jmhParticipant @1957jmh]

Thank you very much for all these very helpful and relevant comments …they do give me more of a understanding about the pitfalls. I forgot to mention that the tailstock had been butchered by removing the adjustable quill and somehow fixing a drill chuck rigidly. Because of the loss of parts there I think I’m probably looking at a replacement tailstock which for a start is going to be around £120. Add to which cost of half nuts and any other parts for the cross slide another £40 -and if there are problems with the lead screw (this actually has a lot of wobble at the gear case end) then i can add another 100 at least. Ugh! There is also some radial play in the headstock so will need attention of some sort. So quite a few hours to spend on all that even before I can use it for my non-vintage car restorations! Food for thought definitely!

(I was also origianlly thinking about how useful a milling slide would be but I’ve since read comments elsewhere on the forum giving those a bad press – even more food for thought!).

 

[1957jmhParticipant @1957jmh]

What a great forum btw! I’ll update the thread when I’ve gone through the torture of decision-making

[Alan DonovanParticipant @alandonovan54394]

Hi.

With respect to this being an ML10.  It most definitely is NOT.

With respect to refurbishing this to bring it back to a useable condition for your car restoration projects, very challenging, I would strongly recommend you walk away.

You have obviously researched the cost of some spares, but until you ‘get it home’ it is the hidden problems you do not know about.  Worn slides, worn bearings, worn feedscrews, damaged/worn gears and pulleys, etc. etc.  Any spares that are available are probably/possibly used and therefore worn and thus unsuitable ……. with ‘no returns’ if purchased via an on-line auction site.

My recommendation would be to save your money and seek a lathe that is definitely better.  I feel sure it will be less expensive in the end and also keep its value for resale in the future.

All the best.  Alan

[Brian SelbyParticipant @brianselby80227]

For those buying second hand lathes check ou this video by Joe Pie, his other videos are a wealth of knowledge shared.

Brian

[1957jmh]

On 1957jmh Said:

 

(I was also origianlly thinking about how useful a milling slide would be but I’ve since read comments elsewhere on the forum giving those a bad press – even more food for thought!).

 

Don’t be too dismissive of vertical slides. If budget and space are constraints then it adds considerable extra versatility to a lathe. It’s just that a milling machine is bigger and better.

[Clive Brown 1]

On Clive Brown 1 Said:

On 1957jmh Said:

 

(I was also origianlly thinking about how useful a milling slide would be but I’ve since read comments elsewhere on the forum giving those a bad press – even more food for thought!).

 

Don’t be too dismissive of vertical slides. If budget and space are constraints then it adds considerable extra versatility to a lathe. It’s just that a milling machine is bigger and better.

+1 on this. I bought a Myford double-swivel vertical slide 25 years ago with a Myford Speed 10 and still use it regularly on the Warco WM250V I now have. It’s true that it’s limited in work capacity but gives me plenty of capability for the work I do. It’s also quick and easy to set up.

Plus I agree that don’t look like no ML10 to me, and for anyone with other work to do than machine restoration, I’d say its condition is terminal.

[1957jmhParticipant @1957jmh]

<p style=”text-align: right;”>Good thoughts on vertical slides – Thanks!</p>

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Hope that you did not buy it!

Lathes UK is mine of information on almost any lathe that might be interested in buying

As said, you don’t know what else might be lurking under cover, once youn start investigating.

For what it would cost in money, time and effort to get it into reasonable working order, you would be better looking for something else.

You have already found nearly £200 for parts, to add to the original purchase price.

For that, you are well on the way to a secondhand Chinese mini lathe, or something like a venerable Myford ML4 which could be useable from the start, or with a lot less tweaking.

7 Series Myfords tend to command a higher price because of the tendemcy towards a “cult” following (I used to have one, but went a bit larger!)

When you go to look at a “possible”, try to take someone kmowledgeable with you, to make a close examination.

Keep us posted as to your search for a machine.

Howard

[1957jmhParticipant @1957jmh]

Thanks Howard, that’s a fair summary! No not bought as such but I’m thinking if the price becomes quite a bit less it might be worth it as a possible donor machine – the motor and bed is good, and there’s a quick change tool post with a fair bit of tooling. Hmmm that’s not worth very much…. As you mention  an ml4 I’m wondering now whether this actually is one underneath the various modifications that have been done. I’ll check lathe.co.uk to see what I can find. A decent ml4 model could well do what I have in mind though and seems a step up from the Chinese and east German small lathes

[Martin of WickParticipant @martinofwick]

…. seems a step up from the Chinese and east German small lathes….

Depends how you define decent. Matter of opinion of course, but I doubt it.

A decent anything over 80 years old would be a rarity indeed and yes I do feel personally qualified to make that statement;-)

 

[Andy StopfordParticipant @andystopford50521]

There’s a Southbend in the classifieds for £100 – elderly, but a far better machine than an ML4

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Am certain that whatever it is, or left the factory as, it is not a Myford ML4.

It has already been butchered, so getting it useable might be lengthy, difficult, if not impossible.

Parts may not be interchangeable with a lathe of a different make.

Trying to update to make a hybrid with parts from another different, machine may need a lot of work, if possible.

The changewheels for a Myford ML1,2,3 or 4 are not directly interchangeable with those for a 7 Series machine, or vice versa.

Remember USA vintage lathes may be dimensionally similar, but details like studs for the changewheel could differ in a variety of ways, and the changewheels could also, DP, pressure angle, let alone other dimensions.

A USA machine might well use Unified threads, rather than BSW and BSF of a UK machine, even if some of the fixings will apparently match (Unified will go into BSW or BSF in some, but not all sizes)

And with the advent of Chinese lathes under different importers and colour schemes, parts may not be directly interchangeable (There are at least three different marques of mini lathes imported into UK, not to mention into Europe and the Antipodes). Changewheels are Module, not DP, and threads will be Metric

FWIW, find another machine within you budget and space parameters.

Howard

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

If after all this gloom you do decide to restore it, it may be easier and cheaper to replace the leadscrew by making one from a length of commercially-available, appropriately threaded “studding”, as I did when fitting a second-hand gear-box to my ML7. (Those use 3/4″ Acme LH but your lathe may have something else.)

Of course, this assumes you already have a suitable lathe for the task!

Regarding change-wheels, if your rescuee has none, the replacements need not be of the same pitch, etc. It’s the basic size and tooth-counts that matter.  All you can’t do, is mix wheels of different pitches, pitch-standards and pressure-angles.

It does look as if the machine has had a hard life by someone with no respect for it, though!

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

<sigh> Please read my previous post.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

My memory failed me, the ML4 is gap bed.

But this does not look like the two ML4s with which I have had contact. (They were Made in the late 1930s and until about 1944. The ML7 was launched in 1947)

Based on the little that the clips show, it might be an earlier Drummond.

A good project for someone who enjoys machine refurbishment, but is not impatient.

But either way returning it to a state where it is a useable, machine in reasonable condition, is not likely to be easy, quick, or cheap.

As said, if you want a machine to use, now, look elsewhere.

Howard

 

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