Mills

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Ian,

 

Thanks for the Thorp reference, I managed to get a copy from Amazon for £4.66 delivered. If anyone else is interested It seems a good buy.

 

Regards

 

Terry

[BogstandardParticipant @bogstandard]

You will find nowadays that most Weldon (straight shank) cutters in both slot and end now come with a centre cutting face.
 

All my solid carbide multi flute cutters are made that way, and any HSS end mills I buy are the same, even down to very small sizes.

 

 

 

 

 

.

 
So I think before long, there will be no differentiation between slot and end mills, you will just buy by the size and the speed type, plus quantity of flutes required.
 
I must say, it makes life so much easier.
 
 
Bogs

[Richard ParsonsParticipant @richardparsons61721]

 

Hi all. The problem with end mills is that they have a hollow centre.  This limits their depth of cut in a slot.  Slot drills do not. The cutting edges on slot drills are ‘asymmetric’ about their centre. This can be tricky to re-grind.

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi Bogs

Although I am a moderator it is in name only. It is not part of my job to edit the website.

I only do it to help out, usually at evenings and weekends when everyone else is enjoying themselves.

I will in future delete what I think is required.

This thread has been tidied up.

regards david

 

 

Edited By David Clark 1 on 29/11/2010 21:02:31

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Dear David,

 

Please make it clear to all that we Must not communicate personally or explain our feelings on the forum. 

 

We all have to be good little boys who does as the great master tells us and only comment on the exact theme of the thread.  Please make this clear in the rules and I’m sorry if I’ve upset anyone’s delicate feelings. Poor things.

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Andrew,

 

How are your endmills? I’ve only managed to buy traditional ones, that’s what seems to be sold mostly despite what I am hearing otherwise  Which type do YOU think Wolfie has?  Centre cut or traditional?

 

Do You buy them in Bedford? or elsewhere.

 

Terry

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi David,

 

Could you please, please get together a list of ‘how to’s’ and  ‘what not to do’s’ so that we can all understand and be good boys and girls instead of simply responding to the wishes of one or two others.

 

Terry

 

‘I used to be paranoid but now I know they’re out to get me’

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Wolfie,

 

One thing you have be careful of which has not been pointed out even by the ‘experts’ is that a 4 flute end mill will tend to wander and cut a slot oversize no matter how hard you try.  They should not really be used in this way, it is bad practice even though common.  This is especially the case in the example of the spiral flute milling cutters (as someone has shown elsewhere). You will usually get problems with those no matter how careful because of the way they cut in a slot and should not really be used for deep slot type cuts where they cut on both faces, they are designed for side cutting flat faces when cutting on one side only.  If you are cutting cavities that’s ok though you can just get away with it as long as you take certain precautions.

 

The least problems will occur with with the straight flute 2 or three 3 flute slot drill.  This is because of the way they are designed.  If you need further clarification email me and I will send you a private message to explain as I am not allowed to contradict the ‘experts’ in public.

 

Terry

Edited By Terryd on 29/11/2010 22:58:45

[BogstandardParticipant @bogstandard]

David,

 

I do wish you had left my post up there, just to explain why I brought up the subject.

 

Please delete the snide and childish remarks above if possible. Only then will this topic be of any use.

 

If you had left my post intact, then people would realise why I asked for them to be deleted.

 

It now seems that this site isn’t for model engineers any more, as it is going just as I told you it would in my previous post (now deleted because you didn’t like hearing the truth).

 

There are a few people who care very little about gaining or passing on knowledge, and just want to gossip and cause trouble when someone tells them to be good little boys and go to have their nappies changing,

 

I have seen them all over the years, take as much as they can, give nothing useful in return, and then destroy everything useful so no one else can enjoy it.

In fact, completely destroying the forum as it should be.

 

A very sad state of affairs.

 

Bogs

 

 

 

 

.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

To get back to end mills.

 

Let me try to expain about end mills and slot drills. Many people have their own description of these but I’m afraid no one is right any longer – even me !!!
First off lets go back in history and see what we had. There were 4 flute end mills and 2 flute end mills. Some could plunge some couldn’t. Confused? well you will be.
The two flute ones were called slot drills in the UK and were ground with one cutting edge over centre so they can plunge cut vertically down and then traverse, hence the name.
The 4 flute end mills usually had a hole in the centre for clearance when grinding and so can only cut on the sides of the tool. Trying to plunge with one of these will leave a central pip that will break the cutter when you try to traverse.
Now when we got towards the end of the 20th century things started changing. We had better methods of producing cutters with fancy 5 and 6 axis CNC grinders. We started to see 3 flute cutters getting popular as a compromise between rapid metal removal and chip clearance. We also started to get the 3 and 4 flute cutters with one lip ground over centre like the two flute . This means that these can also plunge.
To cap it all the manufacturers put paid to any standards by calling their cutters all sorts of different names. Where a 4 flute cutter was called an end mill it can now be centre cutting and be called a 4 flute slot drill.
If you look in any cutter catalogue nowdays you will find that they call a certain type of cutter by one name on one page and another manufacturer calls it by a different name on another page! The manufacturers have moved the goalposts. The cutter descriptions we all grew up with in Chapmans and Moultreich  has gone out the window with the advent of grinding techniques.
I took a 20mm solid carbide 4 flute end mill [ non centre cutting ] in for regrind last month and when it came back it was 4 flute over centre slot cutting cutter. What do I call this now?
The main thing to look for when buying cutters is the number of flutes you require and whether they are centre cutting or not.
I can see the time when the old 4 flute centre pipped type will become obsolete as most cutters are ground up from blank material nowdays.
I had a load of cam track slots to do the other week at 7.2mm wide. I had a choice of doing two passes with an undersized cutter or having a cutter ground down to 7.2mm

I decided to go with the special cutter and asked the local T&C grinders to supply and regrind an 8mm cutter down. Instead they just ground the new cutter straight onto a 8mm solid blank, 3 flute centre cutting. It was on the machine for all of 3 minutes.

 

John S.

[Martin WParticipant @martinw]

Hi All

 

What a shame yet another thread on this site is degenerating into back biting and bickering. What sort of example does set to anyone who is thinking of asking a question, especially those new to the discipline or even worse for the younger generation with an interest in engineering.

 

I would urge all parties to moderate their ‘enthusiasm’ , if indeed it can be classed as enthusiasm, when posting.

 

As far as I am concerned, as a rank beginner, there are people out there who are willing to help and share their knowledge for which I am thankful. If there is a bit of banter then fine provided the thread stays roughly on theme. However I find it disappointing when contributors let their egos/prejudices get the upper hand and start to insult or treat other members in a demeaning manner, as I said earlier it is NOT confined to this thread.

 

I know for a fact that in future I will take little interest in this site until the contributors show each other respect and are prepared to accept what others say without throwing their toys out of the pram.

 

At 7 years past retirement age I have little time to waste on point scoring and even less time to learn. Mechanical engineering for me, like others, has been a passion that I could only realise when I had the spare time and capital to invest i.e. after I retired.

 

I know this is OFF TOPIC but when I see this almost childish behaviour I see red.

 

 

Martin

 

Edited By Martin W on 29/11/2010 23:49:47

Edited By Martin W on 29/11/2010 23:51:10

Edited By Martin W on 29/11/2010 23:55:17

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Martin,

I’m afraid it’s the same age old.

Those that can do it, do it.

Those that can’t, teach it.

 

John S.

Edited By John Stevenson on 30/11/2010 00:19:31

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi Terry

I tidied up this thread at bogs request.

I also deleted bogs post, not because it bothered me but to see if it bothered him which it seemed to do.

I don’t like deleting posts but do agree we should try to keep it slightly more on topic.

regards David

 

David,

 

How do we decide what is relevant and what should be deleted.

 

Surely, if YOU can”t see when a post is going off topic, what are you doing in that position?

 

A couple of posts would be acceptable, but when it goes on like this one has done, then surely it would be time to step in. Everyone can see that it has nothing to do with the original question, and could be deleted without complaint from anyone apart from the few who were exercising their gums by way of a keyboard.

 

You are responsible, by keeping control of this forum, for a very important archive that just may survive as a good reference for many years to come. If you allow garbage to spoil it, it won”t be of any use as a reference.

 …………………………………………………………………………..

 

This forum is not anyone”s any more, it belongs to the world, and anyone on the internet should have access to it.

 

It is you people who are creating an archive for present and hopefully future model engineers.

 

So please, before starting private conversations in posts, just think if you would like garbage interspersed throughout something you are interested in reading on the web.

 

…………………………………………………………………………….

 

You will have noticed, I use the archives I have produced on other sites, and hopefully some of you have enjoyed them. With those, I hope to have enriched a few peoples lives and solved a few of their problems. If we spoil this one, it won”t be able to be used like that.

 

Certainly keep humour and a personal feeling in them, it stops them becoming just like any other scientific types of boring posts containing nothing but numbers, formulae and bullsh, but really, that is about as far as it should go.

 

 

 

Bogs

 

---

Posted By Bogstandard on 29/11/2010 18:15:20.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, I think these complaints about thread post content are contradictory in themseves as they are also off topic, are they not. Espceialy long winded and detailed ones. Should you not open a new thread titled post content complaint, or somthing.

 

Regards Nick

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

Hi Wolfy, Ive just been churning thru’ this topic. However I Suspect you are like me, with one or two “won” mills. True they wont cut accurate slots, if for a key-way it might be better to just cut and then make a key to suit. Best cheap way to hold them is to buy a soft ended Morse taper mandrel, fit a draw bar, drill end to size, in two goes for accuracy, tap for holding screw, grind flat on mill shank for holding if needed. I expect to get shot down, but that’s what I’ve done, and it works, and cheap ,relatively.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, Gordon and wolfy, I’ve done similar things, so I might get shot down as well. The thing is if it works and is simple and safe, then what does it matter.

 

Regards Nick.

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Dear David,

 

our ‘expert’ has complained about personal messages on posts.  Fine, but it was not just I there were several people who were enjoying a bit of fun and not particularly detracting from the post.  There have been many irrelevant threads in terms of model engineering on this forum and many other forums for that matter. There have also been many occasions when personal messages have gone on for quite a period.  I suppose that all of those will be archived without being deleted.

 

I am accused of not making positive contributions  well I think that our self appointed guardian should read the the posts I have contributed.  As well as the thanks I have received for my advice.  At least I don’t expect much of the thread to be comprised of congratulatory and sycophantic messages such as appear on HMEM where there are pages of messages which say more or less “Well done J*** “.  How do those contribute to the store of knowledge in this wonderful ‘archive’, I don’t see requests for that garbage to be deleted as distracting from the thread even though I find it annoying to have to trawl through them to get to the useful bits.

 

It appears that the role of this forum ,and others, is being taken far too seriously by pompous individuals, what some think of as ‘garbage’, others think of a light relief from the tedium of so called experts.  I don’t really think this forum, whatever we may think is going very far beyond the subscribers no matter how important we think it may be.

 

The subject of this particular thread had been well covered, Wolfie’s questions were answered sensibly and fully and that was the original purpose of the thread, no more no less.

 

The so called ‘garbage can be skipped over, much as some of the so called advice should be (some of which is simply wrong, often uninformed and as such garbage).  I think it is a sad day when a couple of messages from a few guys have to be censored when they are not insulting ( some comments about them are), obscene, Lewd, profane or aimed at harming any individual. 

 

As for future potential model engineers reading this, I’m sure that they would prefer the excess formality to be broken with occasional humour as I learned early in my teaching career much to my and my students benefit.

 

Please answer this David, if I wish to give some details of my career, albeit in an irreverent and comical way instead of a pompous and formal manner, what is wrong with that.  If you read my posts that is exactly what I was doing , pointing out some of my qualifications and details of my experience in engineering and teaching over the last 50 years.  Most forums would expect individuals to do that so that their advice can be weighed up and judged in the context of their experience, because as we know, there is a lot of cr*p written on the internet and even on this forum.  Just because my information is offered in an informal way does not make it of any less value or ‘garbage’ as some would insultingly write. My career has not been ‘garbage’.   It is only those who do not comprehend who see it that way.  In the same way that many of my students used to dismiss literature, serious music, the theatre, and Lord forbid even cricket, as ‘rubbish’.  There is such a thing as nuance as well as humour.  Just because some cannot see it does not make their judgements valid.

 

If there was an attack on individuals or insults, profanities etc then perhaps action should be taken and I applaud your actions David in deleting expletives from some posts as I do not swear myself and find it very disturbing.  But in this case I think that the views of one individual should not have influenced you without discussion with the others involved.  There is very much pomposity, self importance and formality on these forums and there must be room for a little humour – we are not writing text books despite what some may think, there are plenty of those around. As for attacking others I only respond to individuals when attacked myself and anyone who thinks otherwise should read my posts properly.  If the humour distracted from the thread surely the complaints did also.

 

Terry

 

By the way, the word cr*p is not a swear word, despite popular thought, the word is derived from old Anglo Saxon word crappe meaning simply ‘rubbish’ and is nothing to do with the name of the inventor of the flushing toilet, just before the uninformed accuse me of swearing.

Edited By Terryd on 30/11/2010 13:44:11

Edited By Terryd on 30/11/2010 13:57:01

Edited By Terryd on 30/11/2010 14:07:35

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, I agree the OP had been covered well. I find some off topic posts interesting, sometimes they have a connection to the thread and have the ideal relavence at that particular time only. There are of course off topics that I’m not interested in, and I just skip over them, no big deal.

 

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 30/11/2010 14:28:55

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi There

I will leave the thread alone.

Just deleted off topic messages to see what mebers would say.

regards david

 

[Diane CarneyModerator @dianecarney30678]

Chaps and Chapesses.

I was going to start a new thread but maybe here is the place to start.

This thread has been hijacked, to a degree. As far as I can see it ran its natural course and maybe should have petered out but it has mutated and become a discussion on etiquette.

 

As your newly appointed moderator I will let you know where I stand on forums: Forums have their place and anyone choosing to contribute does so at their own discretion. Any contributor must be able to take a bit of flack without recoiling. That is the nature of the medium. That said, nobody should be expected to take vilification of a personal nature.

 

Another trait of this medium is that a thread will, from time to time, wander OT. If this happens to the point whereby the original topic is long forgotten and you are annoyed by the deviation and want to say more on your original topic then start a new thread with a similar title to your original. (Maybe post “this topic is continued elsewhere”.)

 

There are a set of rules in the Code of Conduct (please refresh your memory if required) that lay down the 3 basics: No swearing, no writing on the walls and obey all the rules. But especially no swearing. I personally think, also, that sarcasm and snide remarks say more about the writer than the intended recipient so proceed with caution. (I have been reading every post for the last three weeks and I’m getting the picture….)

 

David very rarely deletes postings. Frequently deleting postings negates the value of the forum. I also shall let threads take their own course with minimal intervention. But please do be mindful of the author and his/her intentions and if the correspondence has been of a technical nature in the main, then try to keep it fairly close to the subject.

 

Your moderators are not fountains of all knowledge (quite) so if someone makes an inaccurate statement then correct them without belittling them. Now there’s a challenge for you….

Thank you for persevering with this post. You will hear very little from me henceforth.

 

DC (that’s the other DC). 

 

 

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi the other DC, well spoken. I have to agree with what you have said. But don’t stand off allways, a little objectiveness can be benifical.

 

Regards Nick.

[BogstandardParticipant @bogstandard]

I just wish I could show on here how much support I have been given thru PM’s and telephone conversations about my quest to keep posts on this site clear of unadulterated garbage and post hijacking, but I think it would embarrass our major contributor above too much, not for the praise he gets, but the fact that he contributes so little information yet has so many posts to his name.

 

In fact, as I have replied to some of the people who contacted me, I think this site is actually beyond rescue, because of the atitude of such people above.

 

Because of that beyond rescue point,  I will leave you now to your long, gum beating posts about absolutely nothing of interest, and hope you do survive once those people are brought under control.

 

Your loss, not mine 

 

Bogs

[WolfieParticipant @wolfie]

Jolly good stuff, not sure what all the fighting is about, all discussion is good. And I now know a lot more about mills than I did before ta very much all, and peoples reminisces about how it was once done are especially interesting to read.

 

As I’ve mentioned elsewhere  I have a huge box of ME mags going back all the way to the 1940s and I’m ploughing my way slowly through them cos you know what? The measurements might have changed, but the laws of physics haven’t. The same stuff that held true then holds true now.

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Bogstandard,

 

I May not contribute in the way that you do but i do make many suggestions and research in order to help individuals.  The reasons that I cannot give more than technical or verbal support at the moment is that I have not workshop or equipment following a devastating fire that destroyed all of my equipment and stock as well as most of my records, photographs models and workshop tools and euipment i have made in the last 50 years including during my 5 year apprenticeship and teaching career. 

 

If you think I have little acheivement ask the young engineers and  designers etc  I have helped and inspired over many years as well as those not in the profession who thank me for my inspiration to succeed. Ask the youngsters with learning difficulties who I’ve managed to help to get good GCSE’s.  Ask the young man who met me in the street recently 10 years after leaving school and gave me a big hug of thanks in a crowded shopping centre or the young female pharmacist who came from behind her screen to thank me for the high level of qualifications I inspired her to get.  I could fill many pages with these examples.  I invite anyone to see the testimonials I have received from students and fellow staff.

 

I also have been sent many PMs of support and thanks for advice as well as sympathy for the attack by certain individual and I will not repeat the descriptions from those of such behaviour. and it seems as though so my posts are being read only selectively by some individuals,

 

Far from wearing nappies I think that I’ve proven myself in a wider society through my whole career.  An just think all this started because of a spiteful and unpleasant complaint about a couple of jokes at the end of a thread between posters who intended to harm no one.

 

Terry D

  P.S just read My first three postings on tehis thread and tell me that advice was of no use.  They are typical of most of my postings at the moment.

Edited By Terryd on 08/12/2010 15:49:57

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

Well, I welcome input from both parties but if either rubs the other up the wrong way, just ignore each other. I don’t mind if threads wander a little. Afterall, it’s no different than a friendly real world conversation and like that, can be brought back on topic by anyone who cares to. Can’t see what the problem is but most people react badly to having someone else trying to impose their opinions on them. Neither is anyone a prisoner here. Just my two cents.

 

[Author]

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