Milling vice Choice

[John Gray 7Participant @johngray7]

After many deliberations I have just cleared space and pressed the button to order a SX2PG mill from Arc. I already have one of Arcs toolmakers vices with 70mm wide jaws. I’ve been pleased with this vice but I wonder if a bigger one with wider jaws might be good. 100mm wide jaws would be nice, but of course all the other dimensions increase, so I’m wondering what other members use on small mills of this size. Arcs version has a slightly increased table size, but is still a small mill. The Arcs cast iron jobbies with 100mm jaws look good, but they are over 300mm deep and are quite heavy as one would expect from cast iron, perhaps too heavy for this small mill. All opinions valued, thank you.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I would go with an 80mm versatile, the size difference between the 80 and the 100 is a lot more than the 20mm difference in jaw width. You end up having to mount teh 100mm towards the front of the table if holding smallish items which means a lot of overhang which makes it hard to see the Y handwheel.

Couple of photos of the 80 and 100 on the larger SX2.7 mill.

Though you don’t need the swive base 99.9% of the time

 

[Peter Cook 6Participant @petercook6]

I have an SX1LP which has the same size table as yours. I have an 80mm Arc Versatile Milling Vice, and a 70mm toolmakers vice (mine came from MSC when they had them on sale).

The ARC vice overhangs the table quite considerably front and rear, and 90% of the time I use the toolmakers vice unless I need the flexibility of the jaws on the versatile one. Anything long that needs dealing with gets clamped directly to the table.

I think a 100mm vice is going to be too big for the table. Rear overhang will probably cost you a lot of Y travel.

Here is a photo of my two side by side on the table to give you some ideas, the versatile on the left is not clamped down just placed.

Edit – Jason types faster than me!

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

 

Though you don’t need the swive base 99.9% of the time

 

I think you mean You don’t need the swivel base 99.9% of the time.

You can’t possibly know how often someone else might need the feature!

[John Gray 7Participant @johngray7]

Thanks for you response guys. Your photographs are quite revealing, and I think il stick with my 70mm toolmakers vice for now at least, and re evaluate if I think I need a bigger one.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

I went to Rotagrip for the Vertex 100mm, so glad they only the 80mm in stock.

[Vic]

On Vic Said:

On JasonB Said:

 

Though you don’t need the swive base 99.9% of the time

 

I think you mean You don’t need the swivel base 99.9% of the time.

You can’t possibly know how often someone else might need the feature!

Only repeating what many others here say when the “what vice” topic crops up every few months. Many say you don’t need one full stop but I have had occasions where it was worth using mine so that is why I left the 0.1% off.

If head room is an issue which it will be even more on an X2 then there is even more reason not to use the swivel, angles can always be set with the vice mounted to the table which saves height and is more solid.

It’s a pity that when the far eastern manufacturers copied this style of vice from Kurt they did not copy their practice of selling the swivel as an extra rather than including it.

[Vic]

On Vic Said:

On JasonB Said:

 

Though you don’t need the swive base 99.9% of the time

 

I think you mean You don’t need the swivel base 99.9% of the time.

You can’t possibly know how often someone else might need the feature!

Well though claiming 99.9% may make Jason guilty of exaggeration, he’s correct to say most people most of the time are better off with the swivel base removed.  More room under the spindle and increased rigidity.

My swivel base and tilting angle plate are both worth having, but used rarely.

Anybody regularly use their vice at angles other than 0°, and what for?

Dave

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Running a Bridgeport I have plenty of vertical space so leaving the swivel base on is a no-brainer simply because it’s so easy to get the vice dead-nuts to the travel on a job when it has to be right. Usually second or third ops when I have to match what has already been made.

Swivel base as a general purpose, set any angle, device is an oversold concept as setting up a precise angle isn’t a trivial task. But if you haven’t got a rotary table a swivel base can get the job done a darn sight cheaper. Unless it’s a very shallow angle or simple 90° rotation I generally figure it’s easier to dig out one of my rotary tables. Most of the things I see that need to be rotated want more than one angle anyway so resetting a swivel would likely be just too much trouble.

Generally the thou or two error over the four inch jaw with of the vice(s) I normally use resulting from simply putting on the table and pulling back against the slot before finally bolting down is near enough. So the swivel stays where it was when removing and re-fitting. If the whole job is done in that vice a bit of thought in pre planning can usually eliminate any errors due to flipping or rotating the job.

With more typical Model Engineers machines the inch or so of vertical space occupied by the swivel is often too valuable to waste. So dumping the base and adopting other tricks for accurate vice alignment is the way to go. Did I tell you how much I hate keyed vices, especially when they decide to get stuck!

Trouble with the Kurt system of selling vice and swivel separately is that both vice and swivel are rather deeper than they need be compared to a properly designed and integrated unit. Over the years I’ve done a few back of the envelope sketches of integrated systems that gained perhaps 1/4″ of height relative to a Kurt style. Never went anywhere because the effort always seemed too much just to show off. If I’d cottoned on to laser cutting and Chick vices a lot earlier a real design in real metal might have happened.

Clive

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Yes I probably did exagerate, In my case it is more like 99.9999% of the time.

9000 images on the hard disc of making models and only one where I think I was using the swivel although it does not actually show in teh photo. That does not include the image I used in my book which was set up for the photo.

There are several photos of the vice set at an angle but without the swivel base bolted to the mill table usually when fabricating cast parts that had an angle to them and if I do want to swivel it I tend to mount it on the rotary table which gives more accurate angle settings, handy for things like glands where you want two angles the same either side of zero.

 

[HollowpointParticipant @hollowpoint]

I have the 100mm kurt clone on my VMC, it’s pretty big even on that, and like Jason said, it kinda blocks the handwheel.

I bought a Warco DH1 to replace it but I haven’t had chance to test it yet.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

One option to consider is not to buy another vice but invest in a clamping set and a couple of good angle plates, and maybe a good combination square with an angle scale.  I have a really useful angle plate, machined all over with square ends and a removable fence on one vertical end.  Often I find it easier to clamp items to the table using this and/or 1-2-3 blocks, parallels etc.

[Clive Foster]

On Clive Foster Said:

Swivel base as a general purpose, set any angle, device is an oversold concept as setting up a precise angle isn’t a trivial task. But if you haven’t got a rotary table a swivel base can get the job done a darn sight cheaper. Unless it’s a very shallow angle or simple 90° rotation I generally figure it’s easier to dig out one of my rotary tables. rotating the job.

Setting a a vice to a precise angle is easy enough with a sine bar or if not available the use of trigonometry, a DTI and the machine dials/DRO.

Tony

 

[John Haine]

On John Haine Said:

One option to consider is not to buy another vice but invest in a clamping set and a couple of good angle plates, and maybe a good combination square with an angle scale.  I have a really useful angle plate, machined all over with square ends and a removable fence on one vertical end.  Often I find it easier to clamp items to the table using this and/or 1-2-3 blocks, parallels etc.

I have a couple of angle plates that I have used to very good effect on my current more “micro” mill, and I think your suggestion is an excellent one. This mini mill should have a little more surface area to make table clamping a more realistic option. I guess clocking in an angle plate and leaving it bolted to the table is much the same as a clocked fixed jaw of a vice, and whilst perhaps not quite so convenient, neither is it so awkward either. In any event my toolmakers vice has served me well and I’m sure will continue to do so unless there is a sudden leap in component size. Thank you for your input.

john

 

[Tony Pratt 1]

On Tony Pratt 1 Said:

On Clive Foster Said:

Swivel base as a general purpose, set any angle, device is an oversold concept as setting up a precise angle isn’t a trivial task. But if you haven’t got a rotary table a swivel base can get the job done a darn sight cheaper. Unless it’s a very shallow angle or simple 90° rotation I generally figure it’s easier to dig out one of my rotary tables. rotating the job.

Setting a a vice to a precise angle is easy enough with a sine bar or if not available the use of trigonometry, a DTI and the machine dials/DRO.

Tony

 

Sorry Tony I really can’t agree that setting a vice to “any” precise angle is easy with a sine bar or trigonometry and dials/DRO.

Especially where less experienced folk are concerned.

You need to be happy and confident with trig to convert angle to offset distance at a specified radius and understand the various set up traps if doing it the DRO/dials way. The effects of offset between vice jaw and rotational axis can be particularly perplexing for the inexperienced when changing the angle doesn’t give you the expected shift at one end of the vice jaw.

If  you use a sine bar you need a carrier so the bar can lie horizontal, a set of gauge blocks or a sufficiently good screw jack substitute along with an understanding of why setting large angles isn’t good practice and know the tricks needed to avoid that necessity.

Possibly using a set of angle blocks to gauge angle would be nearest to an easy way. But the achievable angles are limited. Understanding the permutations and combinations if your set doesn’t have full instructions is hard work for neophyte. My set pretty much doesn’t get used because I generally have other options with less thinking needed.

As a card carrying old fart I know this stuff, even if never used. For a neophyte it can be frankly terrifying.

Turning the handle and reading the dials on a rotary table is far easier. But it’s still important to keep track of the effects of jaw and axis offset relative to the rotational axis. Important when dealing with two angles on one job without changing set up.

Sine bar or DRO / dials methods pretty much force a teardown and reset-up if a second angle is needed.

Of course for less precise work where reading the scale is good enough the vice swivel does just fine. Just don’t expect to replicate the angle to better than ± 1/4° or so.

Clive

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

One of the benefits of having a ground all over angle plate is that you can set it adequately true for most practical purposes using a square off the edge of the table.  I also have keys on my vice.  Even without keys, for many purposes if you clamp a straight edge in the vice and align it visually with the edge of a tee slot, it’s good enough.

[John Haine]

On John Haine Said:

One of the benefits of having a ground all over angle plate is that you can set it adequately true for most practical purposes using a square off the edge of the table.  I also have keys on my vice.  Even without keys, for many purposes if you clamp a straight edge in the vice and align it visually with the edge of a tee slot, it’s good enough.

On Clive Foster Said:

On Tony Pratt 1 Said:

On Clive Foster Said:

Swivel base as a general purpose, set any angle, device is an oversold concept as setting up a precise angle isn’t a trivial task. But if you haven’t got a rotary table a swivel base can get the job done a darn sight cheaper. Unless it’s a very shallow angle or simple 90° rotation I generally figure it’s easier to dig out one of my rotary tables. rotating the job.

Setting a a vice to a precise angle is easy enough with a sine bar or if not available the use of trigonometry, a DTI and the machine dials/DRO.

Tony

 

Sorry Tony I really can’t agree that setting a vice to “any” precise angle is easy with a sine bar or trigonometry and dials/DRO.

Especially where less experienced folk are concerned.

You need to be happy and confident with trig to convert angle to offset distance at a specified radius and understand the various set up traps if doing it the DRO/dials way. The effects of offset between vice jaw and rotational axis can be particularly perplexing for the inexperienced when changing the angle doesn’t give you the expected shift at one end of the vice jaw.

If  you use a sine bar you need a carrier so the bar can lie horizontal, a set of gauge blocks or a sufficiently good screw jack substitute along with an understanding of why setting large angles isn’t good practice and know the tricks needed to avoid that necessity.

Possibly using a set of angle blocks to gauge angle would be nearest to an easy way. But the achievable angles are limited. Understanding the permutations and combinations if your set doesn’t have full instructions is hard work for neophyte. My set pretty much doesn’t get used because I generally have other options with less thinking needed.

As a card carrying old fart I know this stuff, even if never used. For a neophyte it can be frankly terrifying.

Turning the handle and reading the dials on a rotary table is far easier. But it’s still important to keep track of the effects of jaw and axis offset relative to the rotational axis. Important when dealing with two angles on one job without changing set up.

Sine bar or DRO / dials methods pretty much force a teardown and reset-up if a second angle is needed.

Of course for less precise work where reading the scale is good enough the vice swivel does just fine. Just don’t expect to replicate the angle to better than ± 1/4° or so.

Clive

Unfortunately engineering does require a modicum of mathematics somewhere along the line, how deeply your interest or understanding is for an individual to decide. I just thought it would be beneficial to some knowing there are various ways to set a vice jaw angle accurately.

Tony

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Setting a vice at an angle is not really any different to clocking the fixed jaw true, all you need is an angle gauge and DTI. Easier and less costly than a sine bar and box of slip gauges.

If you have a DRO there is no need to do the trig, just set the angle function and as you move one axis it will automatically give the change of teh other axis so you just need to use your dti again and make sure it reads the same for any two given zero,zero readings on the console.

[BaldricParticipant @baldric]

One thing i notice with the Kurt style vices is that they seem to have somewhere for coolant to flow back to the table rather of the edge of an overhang, and on to the floor. I wish my vice had that for the odd times when I use coolant.

Baldric.

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Jason

Thanks for the nice picture showing that using an angle gauge block and indicator to set the vice at an angle is indeed quite easy.

The usual set containing 1°, 2°, 3°, 4°, 10°, 15°, 20°, 25°, 30° angle blocks limits resolution to 1° which is generally plenty good enough.

This sort of set-up shows another little advantage of the Arc Versatile style vice as a fence can be mounted using the holes at the rear of the moving jaw to support the angle blocks. So the angle can easily be changed with a job in the vice. Very handy if you need to do more than one angle. Obviously care needs to be taken to ensure that the fence mounts parallel to the fixed jaw.

It occurs to me that some folk might appreciate a short article in MEW or ME explaining this method including the little tricks that make life easier. Expanding it to also cover the angle function on a DRO might be sensible as this is, for all practical purposes, the same method. Just a virtual angle gauge rather than a metal one!

The section in my DRO instructions covering the use of the angle function are so impenetrable that in 20 years I’ve never felt it worth the effort to sort out how to use it! Hopefully more modern units have instructions that are a bit more neophyte friendly.

Clive

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

No need to overthink things by adding a fence, just lay the angle gauge on the flat area behind the fixed jaw and as the jaw is parallel press the gauge against the back of the jaw. Job done.

Well the photo and an explanation was in MEW, maybe you skipped over it as it was in my Beginners series, also appears in my book. Quite a few more examples of mounting work at angles with vices, angle plate, 2 angle plates, rotary tables,  etc.

This explains using the DRO function fairly well

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Jason,

Thanks for the video and as the the old adage says ‘you are never too old to learn’!

Confession time, although I bought up the idea of using trigonometry to set a vice jaw angle and indeed that is how I did it for many years on a trusty Bridgeport and old type DRO I never actually realised the mill I have now has an ‘incline’ feature, but I do now!

[Author]

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