Milling Machine Identification

[Paul MallenParticipant @paulmallen24579]

[Paul MallenParticipant @paulmallen24579]

As the title suggests, I’m looking at buying this machine as a first mill but the guy is selling it for someone & cannot offer any information other than it’s working.

i think I have it down to a Chester Champion but was wondering if any of you good folks can shed light on it for me please

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

I think Warco were selling something similar around 30 years ago which they then replaced with a copy of the Emco FB2 which didn't have the motor off to one side.

[Paul MallenParticipant @paulmallen24579]

Thanks Bazyle, I’m unsure if it’s single or 3 phase, there’s a pic of an ID plate on the motor but it’s all in Chinese apart from a couple of numbers – 370 & 380 so I’m unsure, don’t know if this has any relevance or not

[LathejackParticipant @lathejack]

It's a Chester Champion milling machine, one of Chester Machine Tools early products that they sold for years. It had a four speed belt driven tilting head powered by a single phase motor.The identical Warco version was called the ZX15.

The six speed geared head Warco XZ15 mill was Warco's replacement for their VHM mill which was the copy of the Emco FB2 machine, the geared head XZ15 was not as good as the Emco copy VHM and was only offered briefly.

It's easy to mix up the Warco belt drive ZX15 with their geared head XZ15 mill.

Edited By Lathejack on 14/09/2020 09:26:43

Edited By Lathejack on 14/09/2020 09:33:02

[Paul MallenParticipant @paulmallen24579]

Lathejack that’s brilliant thank you, so I take it that it’s ok for a first mill? It’s either this or a new X2 or WM12 as there are no others coming up for sale lately – bit of an off the wall question but does anyone have any idea of a rough weight? I have a mate with a van who will help me fetch it but there are only 2 of us, I’m a big lad but he is quite vertically challenged & by his own admission ’cor lift much’, am I due a hernia or not?

 

Edited By Paul Mallen on 14/09/2020 09:51:11

[Thor 🇳🇴Participant @thor]

Hi Paul,

If the Chester Champion is as heavy as the Warco ZX15 it weighs around 135kg. I don't know this particular model but I assume it should be easy to dismantle the head. I did that when I moved my milling machine (of similar weight) into my workshop. I did have the help of a younger (and stronger) friend, but it was not difficult to move. To get the mill into a van you could slide it up a couple of 2×4 wooden beams. Take care so you don't need a visit to your GP afterwards.

Thor

PS. Found this on the web.

Edited By Thor on 14/09/2020 10:14:14

[Paul MallenParticipant @paulmallen24579]

Hi Thor, thanks for that & i was expecting around the 200k mark so thats a bonus! And that link is brilliant, thanks for that!

My GP has already told me that if i go in there with a knackered back once more he's going to batter me while he has the chance to do so, so i have to be a bit careful lol, trouble is i'm a bit of an oaf with no patience who's favourite saying is "gerrout me god rode" when people are faffing around, and then i end up not being able to cough, fart, move or sit still for a week or so……

Looks like its going to be an interesting time…….

[Craig BrownParticipant @craigbrown60096]

I would suggest that that machine could be 3 phase assuming it is being powered by the 3 phase red socket and plug on the wall behind. Also the 370 380 numbers you mention could be voltage ratings but they could equally be wattages. Hard to say for certain without further examination but dont assume its single phase

Hope that helps, Craig

[Paul MallenParticipant @paulmallen24579]

Thanks Craig, yes that’s what made me think 3 phase, here’s the plate with the numbers but it makes no sense to me – hopefully I have some more information coming later today so hopefully will be able to shed some light on it

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

FWIW, my advice on moving the machine would be, if possible lift it complete with a crane, with a sling around the Head.

If, to reduce weight, it has to be dismantled, it would be better to remove the Head from the Column, and leave the column attached to the Base. Otherwise, the shimming between Column and Base could be lost / misplaced and then you will have the problem of trying to re tram it, to return it to accurate condition.

If you are a newbie, this may be a problematic situation for you without more experienced and better equipped help.

HTH

Howard

[Paul MallenParticipant @paulmallen24579]

Howard thank you for that, I don’t plan on taking it apart & if it’s around the 130 – 150k mark then we should be ok, I’m an 18.5 stone bodybuilder who carries gravel boards & concrete posts around by myself, it’s my mate that will struggle but it will be worth it just to see his legs buckle & hear him moaning, if anything I’ll try to video it so we can all have a laugh

[ZanParticipant @zan]

I think this is 3 phase By the look of the size of the cable and the type of plug as has been mentioned earlier.
The motor plate probably shows it is Wired in a Y formation, at 370/80 volts or current I doubt that there will be connections to set it to 240 volts running from an inverter that’s an odd voltage, and not a lot of current 1/2 hip.

treat this machine with caution and get full information before parting with cash

[WingoParticipant @wingo]

Hi Paul,

My Chinese language does not work very well but the rating plate indicates

3 Phase motor, star connected, 380v, 1.15A full load current, 1400 rpm.

If that helps…..

Michael

[Paul MallenParticipant @paulmallen24579]

Thanks for that Zan, so it wouldn’t just be a case of buying an inverter & plugging it in then? I try not to mess with electrical stuff if I can help it so my knowledge is limited…

Hi Michael, thank you, I’m glad it make sense to someone & I’m glad your able to interpret it – I do have a single phase motor that’s 3/4HP that runs at 1425 rpm – think that might be any good if I can shoe horn it in?

But yes I’m waiting for the guy to get back to me with more details hopefully so I can make more of an informed decision

[Paul MallenParticipant @paulmallen24579]

Thank you for all the replies & information folks, much appreciated – I’ve just had another look & he has raised the price from £500 to £1400 so it’s a big no from me…..

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Seller is dreaming if he thinks that is worth £1400!

Paul.

[Paul MallenParticipant @paulmallen24579]

Thanks Paul, I’ve been reliably informed that it’s probably worth between £500 – £600 depending on extras that may come with it so if he can get £1400 then fair play to him but it won’t be from me…

Saying that, he probably will get it, I’ve seen Clarke CL500’s with mill drills going for over £1550 on eBay in the last few weeks, they’re only £1374 brand new! I don’t know what’s happening lately with lathes & Mills but it seems people have more money than sense these days…

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

I looked to buy one of these when they were first introduced, as it was the only small milling machine that looked vaguely affordable at the time for me. IIRC they started out around the £700-800 mark & also IIRC that included the 3 speed table feed gearbox that is not present on the machine pictured.

Ultimately I didn't get one. I had reservations about the limited speed selection (4 speeds via belt change), the high lowest speed (400 rpm IIRC) & the lack of quill graduations. But the biggest "downer" when I had a close look at one was the method of raising the head on the column. The head mounting telescopes on the fixed column and is only clamped with a very basic split in the head casting closed up with a bolt. When the head is elevated, there is very little of the head casting engaged on the column & the clamp action on the one I inspected was poor – at the kind of head postions you would be using most of the time with a vice + tooling fitted, I couldn't see how it would have much rigidity. Add in the generally poor fit & finish of the example I inspected (fastners & clamps loose in threads, backlash in the feed screws & quill arrangement & the sloppy column fit) & I decided that however low the purchase price it was not the machine for me.

With inflation, if it all looked reasonable & included the vice & chuck shown then £500 might have been reasonable – but not much more IMO.

Keep looking – something better will show up eventually.

Nigel B.

[Paul MallenParticipant @paulmallen24579]

Thank you Nigel your a star! That is precisely what i've been afraid of with buying an old mill like that one and another reason why i've held off buying a few that i've seen lately. I seem to be faced with paying £100 off the RRP for some second hand models i see on the internet (regardless of how many extras it comes with i would much rather pay the extra just for a new one with a warranty), or one like this one above – which could suffer from any of the problems you list…

It would appear to be a sellers market these days, no idea why but when you see micro mills selling second hand for what they are new then something must be going on…

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Paul,

I’ve just tried OCR and translation on your photo:

This is obviously not complete or accurate, but it’s a pretty good start !

_______________________________________________

のminiature three-phase asynchronous motor
Model A027124 Power 370 pages
15ま
Lead rate 0 insulation grade mesh speed 1400 rpm/s
years
Voltage 380V current
| Factory year and month
Wuhu City Micro Motor-Factory
Connection

_______________________________________________

Happy to have another try, if you can provide a better photo of the plate.

MichaelG.

[LathejackParticipant @lathejack]

The three phase motor that this Champion mill is fitted with does look to be the original motor fitted from new, its external appearance is the same as the single phase motors that they were usually supplied with during that period.

I do recall Chester demonstrating one of these Champion mills fitted with a variable speed inverter at one of the Model Engineering exhibitions, must have been at least 25 years ago.

Mgnbuk is correct in his assessment of these early Champion milling machines, when new they were somewhat rough and ready and rather crude in places with no real feel of quality, although the price was quite low. The table was quite good though with a nice ground finish and Tee slots that extended past the coolant troughs and right up to the ends of the table. The tilting milling head was opperated by a worm gear which was an unusual addition on such a low cost machine. I agree that a £1400 asking price for one of these mills is rather excessive.

Edited By Lathejack on 14/09/2020 20:50:38

Edited By Lathejack on 14/09/2020 21:09:00

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Just read back through this thread, and realised that my translation was too late !

£1400 certainly seems excessive to me.

MichaelG.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Paul, yes it is a Champion mill and it is similar to the Warco ZX15 and the overall given weight is 135Kg. I bought mine for £809.00 which included a collet chuck and set of 8 collets and delivery, in 1997. Didn't find mine to be particularly rough although it did need a little fettling to the column base to make it true to the table. A photo below to show the correct way to lift it, as shown in the user manual that came with my machine. Of course the two bars don't have to be as long as the ones I've used.

If however, you can use longer slings, you won't need to have the head swung round as I have above.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 14/09/2020 22:05:27

[Paul MallenParticipant @paulmallen24579]

Thank you all for your comments & help on this, if he would have been any closer to me I would have been & brought it before he had chance to increase the price & now I would have been left with something that I would be struggling to run without a 3 phase supply & looking at getting another £200 to £400 for an inverter which as mentioned before – probably wouldn’t work!

I consider myself to have had an extremely lucky escape there thanks to everyone who replied & I thank you all – on further investigation & re-reading the messages he sent I’m convinced things are not all they seem with it… he first listed it as a “heavy duty wood & metal drill”, it’s now listed as a “heavy duty milling machine”, he knew absolutely nothing about it & it’s history & seemed adamant that there were no other markings or ID plates on it, and he has 2 Facebook friends (it’s on FB marketplace). Lucky escape there methinks!

Thanks again folks, the combined knowledge on this forum is outstanding & i consider myself very lucky to have access to it

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