Milling machine advice

[Fred BennParticipant @fredbenn76496]

I am a hobbyist who enjoys making brass lighters in my spare time. These tend to be around the size of a zippo but I'm working on one that is 30mm x 9mm and uses M2 threads. Currently, I have been using an old imperial milling machine at my work that has plenty of backlash, can't lock its X&Y axes and seems like it's well past its prime.

I want to buy a mill for my home workshop but I am unsure whether to get an old second-hand model, a new Chinese-made mill such as a SIEG SX2.7/3 or a micro mill such as the Peatol. It would go in my home shed so can't be anything too large.

With an old second-hand mill I might get a bit more bang for my buck but I worry it would not be well suited to machine the small parts I make. Are there any old mills that have been made to suit my specific needs? On the other hand, the rigidity and quality of the Micro and Chinese-made machines may not be up to scratch. My budget is £1500-2250 ($2000-3000).

Does anyone have any recommendations or words of advice?

[Fred BennParticipant @fredbenn76496]

[Dr. MC BlackParticipant @dr-mcblack73214]

If you are interested in Peatol, you may care to Subscribe to the TAIG list on Groups.io

I am VERY happy with my Taig/Peatol lathe which I bought second-hand and renovated.

SPG Tools delivered my SP9512-B Mill to my shed rather than leaving it by the kerb. I am very happy with that too.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

that has plenty of backlash, can't lock its X&Y axes and seems like it's well past its prime.

You may be correct, but also it may only need proper adjustment and some much needed maintenance. As an already operating machinist/hobbyist, you should be able to determine which it is – out of adjustment or worn out.

Buying a machine for one specific duty may not be the best plan of action – unless on a production line.

My smaller mill is a Raglan – certainly not worn out and in good order, as it was only used in a tool-room environment, for prototyping and other small precision jobs, during its ‘working’ life.

The SX3, from Arceurotrade (a well respected supplier) is within your budget – but do remember that tooling can be a considerable extra cost.

My Raglan, while a delightful machine, was known to be not large enough for many of my milling antics but It still gets used a lot – and will not be leaving my workshop while I can still use it!

There may be more to life than zippo lighters in the future? Best to take this into account when you consider your options.

[HollowpointParticipant @hollowpoint]

There's plenty of options from warco, Chester, axminster, arc euro etc but imo the quality can be hit and miss.

Since the work you are doing is small scale a Sherline mill might be suitable. You should have plenty of budget for both the mill and tooling.

Hobbymat make a decent little mill, and the quality is better than most of the Chinese stuff being of German manufacture. They are relatively inexpensive if you can find one. The only bad point is the round column.

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

Posted by Hollowpoint on 14/01/2022 09:52:07:

Hobbymat make a decent little mill, and the quality is better than most of the Chinese stuff being of German manufacture. They are relatively inexpensive if you can find one. The only bad point is the round column.

In MY opinion while saying that a Hobbymat mill is better quality than much Chinese stuff is an opinion anyone is entitled to hold, but suggesting that it is solely because of its country of manufacture is taking things a little too far!

Edited By Nick Clarke 3 on 14/01/2022 13:34:19

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Welcome to the forum Fred.

Your question's a bit awkward to answer because I'm not familiar with the scale you need, Normally, best advice is buy the biggest machine you can afford. It's because small machines can't do big work, most Model Engineers graduate upwards, and a big machine can be cajoled into doing tiny jobs.

However, anyone specialising in small work, clocks, O-Gauge model railways, and perhaps Zippo lighters is better off with a small lathe and mill because big machines doing small work are clumsy beasts. You don't want to get too close to the spinning chuck of a powerful mill even if it's necessary to look at the cut through a loupe.

I suggest putting 'quality' on the back-burner when comparing second-hand with new. When buying second-hand condition is everything, not how sooper-dooper a well-made machine was in 1948! Depending on a machine's history, condition could be anything between as-new and scrap. It's a bit of a minefield.

Now I know what to look for, I would want to see a second-hand machine cut metal before I bought it. There are plenty of good machines about, but don't be surprised if pre-loved turns out to be pre-abused. It could take time to find a good one, and repairs may be necessary too.

The advantage of buying new is wider choice, available now, with mostly well-behaved UK suppliers supporting you in the event you're unlucky enough to get a lemon. It does happen. However if the purchase goes spectacularly wrong, consumer protection applies when buying new.

The disadvantage is affordable new machines are all in the hobby class. They're made down to a price, and not as smoothly reliable as an ex-industrial machine in good nick. My experience of hobby machines has been positive. With one exception all mine worked first time out of the box, though they benefited from mild fettling. The exception didn't need any fettling! Driven with due care and attention, they do all I need. No problems after 7 years.

Boils down to how risk averse you are and if you want to get on with it rather than explore what's available second-hand at the moment. Second-hand is more of a gamble and takes longer unless you strike lucky.

Order new, and the machine will be delivered. You might discover a new hobby mill isn't good enough for what you need. If so, sell or return it and return to the second-hand market. Having understood why the new mill didn't cut the mustard, you're much better placed to spot what's wrong with dodgy second-hand gear.

About 5 years ago I looked at a Chinese micro-mill and decided it was too weedy and wobbly. The next size up was more solid I thought. Today I'd be tempted by a Seig SX1LP (brushless motor) which can do 5000rpm. High speed is an advantage in small lathes and mills,

Dave.

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

That Seig SX1LP mill recommended by SOD looks exactly right fot the type of work you are doing. The link to ARC Euro's site shows the space required for the mill which is also very important.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

The current price of old iron is now too high to be worthwhile unless you get lucky.

That said you are used to using an industrial machine and hobby machines don't compare well on the duty cycle but as long as you keep that in mind it'll be fine.

Same goes for motor power, everyone knows that 0.75kw is 1hp in old money and that works for mains motors. However DC hobby ones will sometimes say powerful 350W motor and if it doesn't say output then it's the motor power consumption which is much higher than the usable output.

[HollowpointParticipant @hollowpoint]

Posted by Nick Clarke 3 on 14/01/2022 13:33:46:

Posted by Hollowpoint on 14/01/2022 09:52:07:

Hobbymat make a decent little mill, and the quality is better than most of the Chinese stuff being of German manufacture. They are relatively inexpensive if you can find one. The only bad point is the round column.

In MY opinion while saying that a Hobbymat mill is better quality than much Chinese stuff is an opinion anyone is entitled to hold, but suggesting that it is solely because of its country of manufacture is taking things a little too far!

Edited By Nick Clarke 3 on 14/01/2022 13:34:19

That's not what I was suggesting. I am well aware the Chinese can make good stuff and the Germans can make crap stuff. But in general German products have better quality control. I've owned countless tools from both countries and It would be difficult to convince me otherwise.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Welcome to the Forum.

As S O D says, the machine should bear some resemblance to capability to produce what you intend to make on it. What it can produce will improve as you become more familiar with it.

But since your horizons will,expand, choose a machine that is a little larger than what you initially think will be the minimum.

With a secondhand machine, unless you know the history pretty conclusively, you take a chance, and could find a new hobby in refurbishing / repairing a machine tool. It could even be an A S P (All Spare Parts ) put together by someone with more interest in what it will fetch than how accurate / reliable / durable it will be.

So, you need to see and very carefully check a used machine. If you are unsure, take someone with you who DOES know what and how to check.

There are good secondhand machines out there. Quite often, tooling may be part of the package with a second, or more, hand machine.

Ex industry it is likely to have been driven hard almost 24 / 7. It was bought to make money, not to look pretty!

If you can still find one, an ex school / college machine will be relatively unworn, but may well bear the marks of unskilled / careless use, such as cuts into the table.

Chipped paint does not make a machine inaccurate; wear does!

DON'T buy unseen!

A new machine, from a reputable importer will have the advantage of a warranty, advice, spares, even replacement, if there are problems, Being a low budget hobby machine, you may well find the need for some fine tuning, but it will be more accurate than a badly worn, pre-abused machine. It may well have features that were not present when a 70 year old machine was designed and built..

Part of my training was on a machine driven by a flat belt from the motor, but still capable of good work!

A reputable supplier will or should, advise on what will be the best machine in their range for your purposes.

(I know one supplier who will refuse to sell a machine if it is going to be unsuitable for the buyer's purposes. )

He would rather lose a sale than have an unhappy customer telling their friends, and anyone else who will listen, that the machine and the supplier are rubbish! )

Your money; your choice, so choose carefully

HTH

Howard

[Fred BennParticipant @fredbenn76496]

Wow, thank you, everyone! All this great advice is much appreciated. Howard, your point on where the second-hand machine comes from does make sense and is a good thing to check out in the beginning. Also, your reputable supplier sounds like a good chap.

I'm still undecided on what I will buy, but at the moment S O D is making sense to me. Getting a micro mill such as the Sherline or the SIEG SX1LP and then keeping one eye on the second-hand market for a good condition suitable machine. I can keep the micro mill if it is still useful for the small bits or sell it on if not.

I have been looking on and off for a good second-hand model but no luck so far. Now, I have bookmarked as many recommended online shops as possible for quick checking such as Bede, Lathes.co.uk and Home and Workshop Machinery. Does anyone have any other good recommendations?

Fred

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

The ARC Eurotrade advert on this page is a very good place to look at machines and tooling. The owner, Ketan is also a member of this forum and has an excellent reputation for after sales service and advice.

[Trevor Drabble 1Participant @trevordrabble1]

Fred , Totally off piste to all the other advice , the English maker Cowells produce a lovely micro milling machine which is worthy of consideration, albeit a little above your budget.

[Roger WoollettParticipant @rogerwoollett53105]

I can confirm that the Cowells mill is a very accurate and well made machine. I have one and would not be without it.. But it has no quill for drilling and by the time you have added some collets, a drill chuck and VAT you are looking at about £4000. I suspect the SIEG SX1LP from arc would be a better bet at about a quarter the price by the time you have added a collet chuck and collets.

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