Milling collet arbor jammed in milling machine

[mgjParticipant @mgj]

Ah – well that’s because you are not the right Christopher, for which I apologise.

 

I agree, it could be a little bit of hike to the Houndstone Trading Estate from the Smoke, especially as i think you have such places up there. 

 

Chris H though might find it useful.

Edited By meyrick griffith-jones on 08/10/2009 18:01:53

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

Hi

Have read this thread with interest having been in similar situations in the past, and am now – have a push-in bearing sitting around a stub shaft on a wind generator which should pull out easily and is stuck solid as a rock with no easy way to to mount a puller without damaging something.  Ho humm, it will come in the end, just not sorted yet.  Have enjoyed the interchange of dialogue though, most amusing to an onlooker.  Never ever take life and comments in this sort of context from others seriously is my thought for the day

 

Now, I am the Chris(H) to which you refer Meyrick, as I live not a million miles from Yeovil and have used Premier Power Products on the Houndstone Trading Estate quite recently, admittedly for bearings on a trailer resident in France, quite mundane,  was very impressed by their service and the knowledge not from the usual typecast more, in fact very, mature male who had been in the business since time began but by a young pretty blond from the office, of all places, who knew exactly what I was talking about from the off, and where to find them in the stores.  I will definitely be using them again and would recommend them to anyone in the area though I agree, from the Smoke it would be a bit of a hike, especially on a day like yesterday (wall to wall heavy rain).

Chris 

[Peter TuckerParticipant @petertucker86088]

ChrisH,    I had a problem bearing to extract recently ( no room for puller). My solution was a short off cut of galve water pipe, on one end I welded a thin annulus of steel to hook over the bearing near the other end I drilled holes for the puller. The pipe was slit lengthwise in three and steel strap tabs welded to each piece lapping over the neighbour which was drilled and taped to be screwed together. After some grinding of the weld to fit, each piece of pipe was hooked over the bearing, fixed to its neighbour with a screw through the tab, the puller hooked in the holes, and of came the bearing.

 

If you think this may work but can not follow my ramblings I can try and post a sketch.

 

Peter.

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Have you spoked to WARCO? They would be able to suggest a positive answer I am sure.

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

Hi Peter,

Not picked up your reply until now, so sorry for the delay in response.  Yes I do understand what you are describing but I am afraid it is not that easy.  

 

The wind generator sits on a pole with a bearing at the tp which allows the generator to turn and face the wind.  The top bearing sits at the top of a boss cast into the generator housing and on a short stub shaft .  At the bottom of the boss is the bottom bearing which in reality is a tuffnull or something similar plain bearing – more of a bush really.  This bearing has a completely flat plain surface, is a tight-ish fit on the stub shaft, and is sealed by a rubber O ring sitting in a groove in the bush on the OD and on the ID by a easily removable seal on the shaft.  On the inside of the bearing a circlip sits in the stub shaft to stop the bush sliding up.  To remove the stub shaft and lower bearing all you are supposed to do is give the shaft a good tug and out it all pops!  This it is refusing to do, the problem is the O ring is seizing up somehow, one can shift the whole lot up a bit but it then jams.  Haven’t had time to give it a very good dose of looking at as I am tied up elsewhere but it’s on the list and will come in the end.  I may have to fabricate a special puller to attach to the stub shaft and push off against the bearing boss.

 

Regards, Chris 

[BobParticipant @bob17059]

Posted by Peter Tucker on 22/09/2009 04:54:33:

<snip>

All MT mills will have a slot for a drift; however my meagre experience is that the drift dose not shift a tight taper.

 

<snip>

 

Oh what a thing it is to generalise…

 

The Victoria Universal Mill’s vertical head is No. 3 Morse and most definitely has no slot for the ejector drift

 

I would be concerned about any miller with such a quill that would allow a normal drift to be used to eject the taper as I would doubt its rigidity. Fine for drilling machines but not for mills.

 

I also do not think that big collets chucks should be mounted on Morse tapers, there is not enough metal at the point where the chuck joins the taper. I have seen a Clarkson (reputable manufacturer) 1 1/4″ autolock mounted on a No. 3 taper bend at the point where the chuck joins the taper after a nasty snarl up.

 

Finally, I would avoid using Morse taper tooling on Milling machines for the reason that it might be impossible to remove from the taper if it is flogged up too tight. That’s why mills use 40 International tapers which are much steeper and in my experience do not jamb in the taper. Also the drive is not taken on the taper, but by separate lugs.

 

Bob

[JulianParticipant @julian]

When I bought the mill, I chose the 3 Morse Taper option because my trusty Boxford lathe has a 3 MT head, and so the collet chuck etc I had been using to mill with a vertical slide on the lathe could be used with the new mill. I had no idea that Morse tapers were a bit of a no no for milling.

The bearing replacement malarkey isn’t going very well I’m afraid – don’t ask! I think I may end up with a new mill yet.

J

[Peter TuckerParticipant @petertucker86088]

Julian,  don’t  give up on repairing your mill, even if you never use that mill again you will gain in experience and satisfaction from completing it.

As for MTs in a mill many people are producing good work with this system, you chose your mill for interchangeability of tooling, this is a good engineering principle.

Peter.

[chris stephensParticipant @chrisstephens63393]

Hi Julian,

It’s me again. 

Re Morse tapers on mills, best not to pay too much heed to others prejudices, sure Morse is weaker than R8 or INT tapers, but you are only going to be using your mill for hobby purposes, aren’t you. Buying tooling that can be used on two machines makes excellent sense. 

Once you have got your mill back in one piece and use it a bit, you will soon develop a “feel” for what works and what doesn’t. If your Morse equipment only allows you to remove ounces per hour instead of pounds, so what? Time playing with your new toys away from family and other distractions is time well spent.

chris stephens

[mgjParticipant @mgj]

Chris – we can’t keep doing this.

 

I agree. Bob is absolutely right. The “proper” milling tapers are better in general and much better when it comes to transmitting a lot of power.

 

But realistically at the hobby level its not going to make much difference – and you have have to be pretty vandalistic to walk into a chuck of metal so violently that you bend a 3MT autolock. However there is a consolation- if you bend the Autolock, you problably havent bent the mill.

 

Also for the modeller, there is a lot of good tooling quite reasonably priced, compared with R8/30INT – which is sometimes harder to come by and often more expensive

So while I accept Bobs argument, were I buying another mill, I’m afraid I would not allow that view to influence my choice of taper.

[chris stephensParticipant @chrisstephens63393]

Hi Meyrick,

Just checking you got the right chris., before we get censored again.

Too often people think they have to have the right tool before they do anything, they should learn to be more adaptable. I personally love to have the right tool and have collected them all my life, but as any one who knows me will tell you, lateral thinking is my “thing”. The brain is the most important tool is any work shop, and can make up for many other tooling deficiencies.

  

I seem to be making it my mission in life to try to persuade people to think for themselves, you can’t show newbies everything but if you can teach them to think and keep an open mind , well its a first step.

Sometimes you have to be provocative or contentious to stimulate a debate and see what floats to the surface.

chris stephens

[Peter TuckerParticipant @petertucker86088]

Hi ChrisH, reading the description of your problem I would say your proposed solution is exactly right.

Peter.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Bob,

Can you name me one benchtop mill or mini mill that has an International 40 taper ?

 

John S.

[BobParticipant @bob17059]

Hi John

 

Quote ” Can you name me one benchtop mill or mini mill that has an International 40 taper ?” End Quote”

 

Quite so, but I would avoid a benchtop mill or a mini mill also!

 

Bob

[chris stephensParticipant @chrisstephens63393]

Hi Bob,

If I am to understand you correctly, you don’t think model engineers should be allowed , unless they have oodles of space and unlimited budgets! Bit elitist, methinks.

chris stephens

[mgjParticipant @mgj]

Well again, technically he is right. The bigger you go the more mass, better finish, more accurate and probably more versatile.

 

But what about the guy who commutes and quite literally has to put his lathe and mill into a cupboard every weekend, or those who only can work on something clamped to a board on the kitchen table.

 

i’m sure they’d all like the latest Bridgeport and a Harrison M300 to go with it – I wouldand I’m not really limited – but I don’t think one should look down on small equipment. A lot of very good work is done on it- better perhaps because of its limitations?

[chris stephensParticipant @chrisstephens63393]

Well, Morse 2 was good enough for Mr Westbury, when he re-worked the Dore-Westbury mill, and a great deal of fine work has been produced on that machine over the years. 

Expediency far out ways idealism.

chris stephens

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by Bob on 16/10/2009 15:58:20:

Hi John

 

Quote ” Can you name me one benchtop mill or mini mill that has an International 40 taper ?” End Quote”

 

Quite so, but I would avoid a benchtop mill or a mini mill also!

 

Bob

 Ok sorry but I mistakenly thought as you were posting on a Model Engineering forum that it would have some relevance.

 

Perhaps a Google search and join up to say the Practical Machinists forum would be more up your street ?

These guys only get orgasms when it weighs over 7 tonnes, has 8 axis or a 50 INT taper spindle.

 

John S.

[BobParticipant @bob17059]

Posted by chris stephens on 16/10/2009 18:17:47:
Well, Morse 2 was good enough for Mr Westbury, when he re-worked the Dore-Westbury mill, and a great deal of fine work has been produced on that machine over the years. 

Expediency far out ways idealism.

chris stephens

 Hi Chris

 

I would agree with No. 2 Morse on a light vertical mill going upto about a 3/8″ or even 1/2″ cutter my issue is with No. 3 Morse and larger and longer cutters held in Autolock type chucks. I can only report on What I have observed and I have seen problems with that particular combination. The International type chuck is to be prefered as more of the shank of the tool is accomodated insde the quill of the machine resulting in less overhang and so better surface finish/ less vibration etc.

 

I have used a Dore Westbury mill but I an not a great fan of those either.

 

Bob

[BobParticipant @bob17059]

Hi John et al

 

I would suggest that good old machines are a viable way ahead for many model engineers. Over the years I have been involved with many machine tools that would be considered small by industrial standards but vast by model engineers. Most of these machines have been ex-industry or ex-education and been lightly used. They are big, they are three phase and they are heavy, but that’s what I like.

 

To compare costs my current lathe a Smart and Brown Model A toolroom lathe cost £500 delivered to my door. It takes up about the same floor area as a Boxford CUD (OK just a bit bigger) and needed some work to run on a single phase supply, but compared to my ex-education ML7 is an infinitly better machine, screw-cutting, Norton box, taper turning, good set of collets etc and with a little inginuity most Myford kit can be adaped to fit the S&B. Now that machine stands easily in the end of my single garage workshop and turns very true.

 

Another example was an Archdale vertical mill brought for £200 at auction. A big job moving it but an excellent machine (Int 40 btw)

 

Machine tools like this turn up all the time. Look for auctions in your local paper and be on good terms with your local scrap metal dealers.

 

Remember, you can do a small job on a big mill, but the other way is difficult. 

 

 

Bob

[chris stephensParticipant @chrisstephens63393]

Hi Bob,

I agree, big stuff is much better if you have the space, cash is not really the issue, if you know what you are doing, some good bits of ex-industrial tooling and machinery can be had for nearly peanuts, certainly less than new “Asian” or worse European. The but is that some people have to work in small sheds or buy new because they don’t know how to fix up older bits of kit, yet. Three phase still puts a lot of folks off.

We should be grateful that we have space, willing “domestic staff” and the readies to indulge our little idiosyncrasies. 

Remember that, a good engineer can do a lot with a little, but a bad engineer can do but little with a lot.

chris stephens

[Martin WParticipant @martinw]

Hi Chris & Meyrick.

 

 

 I realise that this is a bit late it the thread but I have fairly strong feelings regarding the regulations regarding health and safety versus common sense that we are being subjected to these days.

 

I’m afraid that I’m with you regarding taking the odd and calculated risk. Hell’s teeth we wouldn’t dare cross a road or drive if we weren’t prepared to take a risk. As far as I am concerned HSSW is good but there are limits to how much ‘Safety’ needs to scrutinised. Any aged adult, I am in that category at 65+, has lived without HSSW or regulations long enough to judge risk against damned stupidity. Yes I have four fingers on each hand plus thumbs to match, two eyes physically intact as well as the expected quota or arms (needed to support aforesaid fingers/hands) and legs but does that mean I haven’t taken the odd risk or ten of course it doesn’t!!!!!!! Assess the risk take the obvious precautions and go for it and yes I haven’t got a mill yet so a pillar drill complete with chuck, three jaw of course, is used as a substitute mill with light cuts and acceptance that a job could be completely screwed up. Would I recommend this to a friend or beginner of course not!

 

What do they say ‘Variety is the spice of life’ and a little excitement never hurt  . Yes being reckless is stupid and machinery can do serious damage to soft tissue but with a little forethought most things can be achieved with little or no risk to the operator, me, or anyone else if the shed door is shut!!!

 

Please keep the advice coming.

 

Best regards

 

Martin

 

Not Irresponsible but inventive when needs arise.

 

 Without this the human race would still be cracking their nuts with stones and how would health and safety regulate this, perhaps with rubber stones, Oh s**t then they might bounce out of control and hurt someone so lets starve to death because it’s safer. Problem solved!!!

Edited By Martin W on 21/11/2009 02:14:32

[Richard ParsonsParticipant @richardparsons61721]

 

Hi there

Back to freeing the chuck. Try this it is an old trick and may work. Turn up a short-ish punch so that it is a nice sliding fit into the drawbar hole then fill the drawbar hole with grease or thick oil. Insert the punch and administer a sharp ratta-pan with a good copper mallet. Trying to knock the thing out with w steel bar can swell theens of the MT and cause more problems.

Hope it works

[dixieParticipant @dixie]

Please Julian has your chuck come out yet, the suspense is terrible. 

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

Just going back to something said on the first page, as I understand it, the slot in the side of most collets like R8’s are NOT to drive them but to stop them twisting in the quill while the drawbar is being tightened up. Indeed, they’ll perform perfectly well without the key or pip in the quill once they’re tightened. ER collets have no broad slot and they have similar angles to R8’s. Because Morse tapers have a more acute angle means that hand power is often enough to secure them where R8’s need a spanner to draw them in securely enough.

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