Mill vice position?

[VicParticipant @vic]

I had a milling job the other day and had to move my milling vice along the table about an inch in order to accommodate the workpiece. Not really a problem as I have a couple of sleeves press fitted into my vice that fit the tee slots on my mill. It’s not 100% but within a few thou which was fine for the job in hand. I wondered though how many of you fit the vice in the centre of the table or do you have it slightly to one side or the other? I should add I have a VMC which only has a modest size 26” table.

[VicParticipant @vic]

[David George 1Participant @davidgeorge1]

Hi Vic I generally put my vice to the left hand end and that leaves the other end for either an angle plate or other machining space without having to clock up the vice every time you use it and you don't wear the centre of the slideway.

David

[Paul LousickParticipant @paullousick59116]

The position of the vice on my mill is positioned on the table to suit the job which I am doing. Also has a key set into the base for quick set-up. (accurate enough for most jobs).  My mill has a 28" table and I sometimes have the vice positioned to one side and a rotary table on the other.

 

Edited By Paul Lousick on 30/05/2018 13:51:25

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Where I can choose, I put the (tenon-located) vice on the right-hand side of the table, with a dividing head on the left pointing right.

That's 'cause I have to cut round bar down to hexagon a bit more often than sometimes, for pipe unions and flanged nuts.

Edited By Mick B1 on 30/05/2018 13:51:56

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Myford VMC user. Milling vice on the left George Thomas Dividing Head on the right.

regards Martin

[Nick HughesParticipant @nickhughes97026]

At home and at work, I try and use the vice, fixtures etc, on alternate sides of the table, in an attempt to even out the wear.

Always avoided the centre, unless (as said by others) I need the travel.

Nick.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I also try and move it about a bit, to even out wear.

Neil

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Are we still talking about milling vices.?

Martin

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

It's not a great idea to have too much overhang of a cast iron table on a relatively small support as found on some of the smaller hobby mills. Unless the gibs are really tight there is a chance of the table rocking. I think this has been mentioned before.

Martin C

[VicParticipant @vic]

Interesting to see folks views. I had the benefit of learning quite a lot from a couple of experienced machinists over the years and they both used to put the vice back in the middle if it had to come off for any reason. Mines back in the middle but I may be tempted to move it over a bit at some point …

[HOWARDTParticipant @howardt]

I use a Sieg SX2 and the vice is always in the middle of the table and located in one of the tee slots to suit the travel required. Why position it to even out wear, a lathe is probably has a more localised chance of wear.

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

I find that simply pulling, or pushing, the vice so that one side of the mounting slots are hard up against the mounting studs before final tightening puts the jaws repeatably close to parallel with the table slots. Once the technique is established error is within maybe ± 1 thou over 4". My results are usually better.

However I drive a Bridgeport so generally don't have the limited Z-axis travel issues inherent to smaller machines and can leave my vices on their swivel bases. So final alignment when things have to be right right is pretty easy.

It seems to me that the idea could be regularised for a fixed base vice by accurate opening out the mounting slots relative to the vice jaw alignment sufficiently to take what might be called T washers drilled to fit the studs and made a snug fit in the re-machined slots. Simple round spigots should work well enough but I trimmed the sides straight for more engagement when doing a similar exercise on a Nippy drilling vice long enough ago that I've completely forgotten why the job was done in the first place. If you do make the sides of the T washers squared off perhaps making them longer so they drop into the table slots like poor boys key would be advantageous.

Personally I'm not great lover of keyed vices. If the key is tight enough in the Tee slot to be properly accurate moving or removing the vice can be something of battle. On older, ex industrial, machines the Tee slots are frequently uneven due to damage, anno domini, careless use and, sometimes, abuse. On smaller, affordable, hobby class machinery the slots are frequently not sufficiently accurately made for precise key. Just another one of the many compromises where the difference between "works well enough" and "super duper job" is more than the customer can afford. Either way it won't be possible to accurately mount, or maybe even fit, a vice with a long key at any random position on the table. Which rather defeats the object. Only need enough contact for accurate positioning, the studs and nuts do all the holding, so the long key often advocated seems over engineering at its worst.

Clive.

Edited By Clive Foster on 30/05/2018 17:57:10

[Thor 🇳🇴Participant @thor]

Like Nick I try to use alternate sides of the middle of the table. As Martin says a long overhang of the table is not a good idea so I don't mount the vice far from the middle of the table, the other end can occasionally be used to mount the rotary table etc. I have had the milling machine for quite a few years and can not notice that the table movement gets stiffer.

Thor

[Fowlers FuryParticipant @fowlersfury]

Drifting off-topic a little to lining up the milling vice……
I'm with Clive F's 4th para "Personally I'm not great lover of keyed vices…. etc"
Easiest & quickest way I've found is to lightly grip a (dedicated) laser pointer in the vice jaws, wind out the table to its stop, rotate vice until laser lines up with mark on workshop wall and then tighten down.
(To accurately position the mark on the wall the first time, needs an accurate parallel in the vice and a dti).

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

FF,

How far away is your wall? That method seems to have promise.

Currently I line one vise on each mill by pushing them back square to the vertical column dovetail. Gets me close enough for rough work and does not take long to set it square with a dti from there, anyway. The laser might be good for the shaper vise which rotates on the table.

I don’t fit the rotating vise base on the bigger mill as it still uses up too much vertical working height. Leaving a swivel base and mounting work over the base, when the vise is not required, might save time for some.

I find I am removing and replacing vises far too often. Vises are usually fairly central, as the long travel feed is only about 340mm on the Centec and less on the Raglan.

[Fowlers FuryParticipant @fowlersfury]

NDIY ~ "How far away is your wall?"
Answer:- governed by my old-age myopia . I need to be able to see the 'target'.
It's about 10' from the mill but obviously the farther away the better in terms of accuracy. Here's 2 images, the 2nd (poor quality one) shows the 'target' on edge of a shelf. I found that a piece of that self-adhesive aluminium foil was best. The laser pointer was a cheap, red beam one but has a tough alloy body. In use you have to remember to ensure the table is 'wound out' fully of course or it'll give rise to erroneous settings.

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

NDIY ~ "How far away is your wall?"
Answer:- governed by my old-age myopia . I need to be able to see the 'target'.
It's about 10' from the mill but obviously the farther away the better in terms of accuracy. Here's 2 images, the 2nd (poor quality one) shows the 'target' on edge of a shelf. I found that a piece of that self-adhesive aluminium foil was best. The laser pointer was a cheap, red beam one but has a tough alloy body. In use you have to remember to ensure the table is 'wound out' fully of course or it'll give rise to erroneous settings.

How does this idea work?

When you wind the table out what does it stop against?

How do you know the laser beam axis is truly parallel or concentric to its outer casing?

How rigid is the wall or the machine mounting, say its a wooden floor or flimsy shed.

I like the idea in principle, and can see that the further away the target spot is the better, but then its being viewed from a greater distance so eyesight comes into the equation!

Ian P

[Anonymous]

My machine vice is normally placed roughly in the middle of the table. A rotary base isn't an option on my make of vice, and I wouldn't have one if it was. Neither do I use keys, although the vice has slots machined for them. The vice gets moved across three milling machines and the T-slots vary by a few thou from machine to machine, so not accurate enough for me. I prefer to indicate with a DTI on the back of the fixed jaw to ensure it is parallel with the table movement. I'm happy if I get better than a few tenths (0.01mm) over the 6" jaw width.

On the odd occasion the vice temporarily needs to share the 48" table on the vertical mill with something else, in which case it is placed at one end. But I don't leave dividing heads and rotary tables on one end of the table if they're not being used. Having a 100lb plus dividing head hanging off one end of the table makes it darn hard work winding the handle, and is a sure way to wear the feed screws and dovetails. It might even bend the table. Rumour has it that the original Bridgeport mechanical table feed gearbox was so heavy it could put a permanent set in the table.

Andrew

[Fowlers FuryParticipant @fowlersfury]

Re. Ian P's posting

I claim no originality for the method, just my adaption of a published way to ensure a mill head was reset to a predetermined position.When critical work is undertaken then I have often checked vice jaw alignment with parallel and 'finger' dti. The laser spot was always on target. The method takes no account of ambient temperature effects on the mill table & vice. But I offer it only as a not-so-rough and ready method of quick alignment which is certainly capable of improvement.

How does this idea work?
<>
That once set accurately, the laser will reposition the vice jaws parallel to the X axis.

When you wind the table out what does it stop against?
<> The table on my mill comes to a "dead hard stop" when wound out so no uncertainty.

How do you know the laser beam axis is truly parallel or concentric to its outer casing?
<> I don't but since it's always placed in the vice jaws at the same position as it was when the vice was initially set accurately with parallel and dti, I don't see it as an issue.

How rigid is the wall or the machine mounting, say its a wooden floor or flimsy shed.
<> FWIW – concrete floor, double thickness brick walls, mill on a steel framed bench.

Edited By Fowlers Fury on 30/05/2018 22:36:17

[Enough!Participant @enough]

My main vice is the type that's cut out through the base. Because of this I didn't fit a permanent location key to the base – rather I have a solid drop-in block with a key that passes through the cut-out and into the table slot. It can be used in any slot (albeit with sometime awkward overhang). Also, by offsetting the position of the key on the block, the vice location ought to be changeable (by juxtaposing the block) to intermediate positions (have to admit I haven't tried that bit yet …. so much to do ….)

The block can also be turned 90 degrees – and with it the vice. For me (and for this type of vice) this is a much more versatile arrangement than machining the vice bottom and installing a fixed key.

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

Tom Senior M1 owner here, 28" table. Vice is 65/35 to the left.

No keyways used, don't like them either, i move the vice regularly.

Easy job to tram a vice fixed jaw to within half a thou, never takes more than a minute. I have a back plunger DTI just for the purpose of tramming the mill and shaper vices.

[Neil LickfoldParticipant @neillickfold44316]

Lh or Rh end of the table all depends of the handed direction of the other accessories you are wanting to use. Re the table T slot and the alignment of the vice or what ever with a dowel, it should easily be with in 0.01mm per 150mm. If not, maybe the T slot that is your reference needs to be re cut again so that the edge of the T slot is true to the run of the table.

Neil

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

If I'm using one vice, it's normally close to the middle. When the mill isn't in use, the 8" rotary table and its (separate) 10" chuck sit loose at one end of the table and the other vice sits loose at the opposite end. Stuff gets located and bolted down as needed. When I rebuilt the mill I didn't bother to do anything with the T slots and use a DTI to align the vicees with the X axis travel when mounting them.

 

I'm not worried about the weight of the vices/rotary table etc. affecting the mill's table because they each weigh less than about 50 lbs (by the effort needed to carry them) and the mill's table weighs 350lbs. I'm also not that bothered about wear to the ways because I installed a decent one-shot lubrication system during the rebuild and use it religiously.

 

When I make a riser block for the head in order to do a job that's waiting (getting close to the top of the list now ), I hope to add a couple of arms/brackety things so that the spare vices/rotary table can be held out of the way without filling up the bench.

Edited By Mark Rand on 01/06/2018 00:59:11

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Does this depend on the mix of work you do?

Most of of my efforts are small and can be held in a vice. My workshop layout makes it more comfortable to work with the table centralised, so that's my default set-up. My only reason for offsetting the vice is to allow a rotary table to be mounted as well.

Occasionally I use both rotary table and vice for different operations on the same job. In that case it saves time to have both on the table. If I made lots of gears and clock parts, this would be a better default. (The downside is the amount of extra cranking needed to move between rotary and vice, while milling larger objects might be impossible with both on the table – they get in the way. Doesn't suit me, but it might suit you.)

I suppose the 'best' arrangement varies depends on the size of work done relative to the size of the mill: if you have table space to spare not moving the holding arrangements makes sense – resetting wastes time and increases the chance of a mistake. Whether you have sufficient space depends on what you're doing, what kit you have, and – in my case – the workshop layout.

One thing learned from painful experience is NOT to hope for the best when clamping work. I'd rather remove a rotary table than mill an excessive overhang in the vice just because the rotary was in the way. Likewise, if work is slightly too big for the vice, off comes the vice so I can bolt the work direct onto the table. It's so tempting to risk using the vice because it's quick and easy…

Dave

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