Mild Steel Spring Leaf

[michaellaffanParticipant @michaellaffan]

Hello and thank you in advance for any advice,

I’m an absolute complete novice, so looking for some help here. I’m a piano tuner by trade, so we are normally dealing with woodwork. However, there was a futuristic Dutch company in Ireland in the 1960s called Rippen that made instruments from plastic, steel, and aluminium (and wood where it absolutely mattered). I’ve decided to take on finding new parts that are no longer available (as have a few others over the years), and I’m having trouble with mild steel spring retainer clips (or steel blades) pictured below (from a website of a French engineer that looked at this piano in 2015)

https://alainfelixdenis.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/piano-lindner-036.jpg

On the picture left is a pile of plastic parts, but on the picture right are the black steel retainer clips with u shaped slots stamped into them (and function similarly to how car radio chassis used be held in place). How or where could I have these made? The retainer clip holds together a plastic pivot support compression clamp (which I’ve had reprinted for me), and an insert which slots into the piano key, and keeps them a specific distance apart if you follow the pictures on link below:

https://alainfelixdenis.wordpress.com/2015/08/10/piano-lindner-remise-en-tat-partie-12/

If someone could easily manufacture them I could happily order 100 or more, price depending of course!! Or tell me where to go look.

Metalwork Home tools are a vice, hacksaw, files, grinder and drill press, so I’m not kitted out for this!

 

Really really appreciate your taking the time to look through this – thank you very much!

 

Michael

http://www.laffanpiano.ie

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

A press tool is the obvious way, but I suspect very expensive. What you could investigate is getting them laser cut in the flat and then bending them to shape

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

In addition to Duncan’s reply, if they are springs they will not be mild steel .  Spring steel is a carbon steel which may need heat treatment.  I’m no expert in these matters, only making odd bits that I might need.

Looking up ‘clock spring steel ribon’ may be enlightening.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

The Blue colour is characteristic of spring steel, not mild steel, and the shape is vaguely familiar.

I doubt the maker would have specified special clips if anything standard off the shelf was available.  Trouble is there are gazillions of clips!  You could try wading through the RS Catalogue, or Magrenko’s online shop.  Magrenko also do bespoke work.  (Other suppliers available.)

Dave

[michaellaffanParticipant @michaellaffan]

Thank you SO much for your kind replies – yes that makes sense that it is spring steel, I didn’t know the difference – it used as a spring as it helps the key to return to its up position, and must be able to do that thousands upon thousands of times before breaking.

I’ll send that photo to the manufacturers and see – will preferably have to find and Irish supplier, as post brexit customs can be a total bawbag.

 

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

If you Google classic car clips you will see many many many similarish spring clips pop up from various suppliers to the classic car restoration trade etc. There is a pretty good chance your piano maker used an existing clip from the auto trade, by far the world’s biggest consumer of such items.

Up to you to trawl through them all and find something that looks like your needs though!

Or try sending pics of your old clips to some classic car restoration experts or suppliers and ask if they recognise them.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Michael –

It’s not the number of times the spring works that matters, but its material.

It’s not possible to make a spring from mild steel because it cannot be given the elasticity of properly hardened and tempered spring-steel.

Mild-steel is not amenable to that heat-treatment, and once you’ve deflected it beyond a very tiny angle, it stays deflected.

[Gerard O’TooleParticipant @gerardotoole60348]

Rippen pianos are still in business in the Netherlands. Would it be possible that they still use this type of clip?

 

[michaellaffanParticipant @michaellaffan]

Good idea, but the actual model they manufactured in Ireland was discontinued, and it looks like they went back to more traditional design after that. I’ll check though.

[michaellaffanParticipant @michaellaffan]

Thank you for clearing this up for me! Really helpful to know this.

[Nigel Graham 2]

On Nigel Graham 2 Said:

Michael –

It’s not the number of times the spring works that matters, but its material.

It’s not possible to make a spring from mild steel because it cannot be given the elasticity of properly hardened and tempered spring-steel.

Mild-steel is not amenable to that heat-treatment, and once you’ve deflected it beyond a very tiny angle, it stays deflected.

Thank you for clearing this up for me! Really helpful to know this!

[Gerard O’Toole]

On Gerard O’Toole Said:

Rippen pianos are still in business in the Netherlands. Would it be possible that they still use this type of clip?

 

I think the production since then has gone back to more traditional piano style using wood. This design was a REAL outlier, and didn’t stand the test of time.

[JohnFParticipant @johnf59703]

Michael, As Duncan says to make a quantity of these a press tool would be required,  my inclination would be to contact the company in the Netherlands and ask if they can still supply and if not maybe direct you to the original supplier/maker of the clips to their company in Ireland assuming of course they were outsourced ?

Looking online there are lots of custom suppliers e.g.

http://mcoilsprings.com/spring-clips-manufacture.html

https://www.weihuispring.com/clips1.html

No affiliation to either of them just random choice but worth asking the question.

John

 

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Highly unlikely to be a standard part. There are lots of them and cheap to make apart from tooling. Manufacturers don’t price these things the same as hobbists.
It is a simple shape and if steel strip of the correct width can be found a very simple press tool would make the two locking tabs and cut it to length. Gauge plate die and a couple of punch pins ground from an old minimill would be good enough for a 100 off. A small rack press would be ideal but at a pinch you could use a vice.

Robert.

[Nigel Graham 2]

On Nigel Graham 2 Said:

Michael –

It’s not the number of times the spring works that matters, but its material.

It’s not possible to make a spring from mild steel because it cannot be given the elasticity of properly hardened and tempered spring-steel.

Mild-steel is not amenable to that heat-treatment, and once you’ve deflected it beyond a very tiny angle, it stays deflected.

You can make a spring out of mild steel, just not a very good one. As long as you stay below the fatigue limit and/or elastic limit depending on application you can use any material you want. Well perhaps not jelly or lead, but you see what I mean

[Gerard O’TooleParticipant @gerardotoole60348]

Michael not sure if you have seen this archive footage from TV https://www.rte.ie/archives/2021/0112/1189165-rippen-piano-factory/

I also found this

“The production of the Lindner piano began with founding a factory at
Shannon, Ireland. Only the plastic parts were produced at Shannon; the
normal parts were purchased from external suppliers, and Renner even
developed a special mechanism. The main factory at Ede in the
Netherlands supplied some parts as well.”

It might be worth enquiring from engineering companies around Shannon, although, as the factory closed in early 70’s the chances are slim of finding anyone who remembers making the clips.

 

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

This company should be able to help, though they may not be cheap.

https://www.leespring.co.uk/flat-springs

Otherwise find a local engineering shop willing to make press tooling and carry out the work.

Neil

Other suppliers here, any of whom should be willing to quote, assuming a minimum order quantity.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=custom+flat+springs

 

[duncan webster 1]

On duncan webster 1 Said:

You can make a spring out of mild steel, just not a very good one. As long as you stay below the fatigue limit and/or elastic limit depending on application you can use any material you want […]

In the grand scheme of things, Duncan makes an important point

It is well-illustrated by the Flexure in the ‘Repeat-O-Meter’ device that was discussed recently. … the check-straps being essential to to prevent it failing.

MichaelG.

[michaellaffanParticipant @michaellaffan]

I’ve been directed locally to a laser cutting firm that are in Shannon, near where the piano factory was based ironically, so I’ll report back on whether they can work out something for me. Thank you again for helping me out with this – I may well have to approach one of the UK firms you guys have suggested above.

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