MEW188 Editors bench letter

[DerryUKParticipant @derryuk]

Interesting letter from Brian Thompson on the editors bench. Brian doesn’t want to start small and the Editor asks what’s to be done.

I have every sympathy with Brian but he answers his own questions really. He doesn’t want to make a toolmakers clamp but he worries about breaking a tap in a £184 casting. I worry about breaking taps but after you have tapped dozens of holes you get a feel for what is right and what is wrong so you can then tackle that casting with a bit more confidence.

In the end I’ve come to the conclusion that perhaps Brian should build his models from kits of premanufactured parts, at least to start with. He won’t have to worry about breaking that tap and he will see the results of his efforts sooner which is just what he wants.

Derry.

PS phew and I never said that you can’t run without learning to walk first.

[DerryUKParticipant @derryuk]

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

I'm confused again!

According to MHS the latest issue of MEW is 187

If issue 188 has been published it does not appear in the digital editions so have you got a pre-release edition?

Ian

[Flying FiferParticipant @flyingfifer]

Derry, as you say an interesting letter as is Harold Hall`s in Scribe a Line page 62 particularly paras 4 & 5. I wonder how many people over the years have jumped in at the deep end with little or no experience & eventually just quietly gave up having realised that a bit of experience & enough cash to replace all the broken taps, drills etc whilst "learning". This is probably the source of many of the adverts on the various forums, Ebay etc of those " partly completed castings" or "untouched kit" etc etc.

I don`t know what Brian`s experience is probably more than he lets on but maybe not, though I do agree that breaking it down into small jobs is the way to go but this in itself can lead to problems later on when you start assembling all the little bits& discover that some are too big/small to fit where they are supposed to fit because of a drawing error or dare I say because you`ve made it too big/small.

I symphasise with David no matter what he does he won`t please everyone all the time look at the flak about pages of g code etc but such is life. So good luck Brian i hope you don`t break too many taps in that expensive cylinder but there are ways of getting the broken bits out you know !

Regards Alan

Ian subscribers get their copies a week earlier than they go on sale!!

Edited By Flying Fifer on 10/03/2012 23:42:04

[MACParticipant @mac53652]

Hi,

I think there's two schools of thought on this.

I started building my loco in 2009 – this involved buying my first lathe. Never been within 100 foot of one prior to this point. It was a big step in more ways than one.

Have had no problems……..just thorough enjoyment and am mad with myself that I didn't bite the bullet 10 years ago.

I think there is an element within the hobby that tries to paint a "black art" smoke screen……..almost as if to deter people from sharing the fun. Sure I could make things quicker if I'd served my time aged 16, but my time is my own (the wonderful Don Young's words).

That's my take on it anyway.

[Terry LaneParticipant @terrylane]

I don't think there are many that try to make a Black Art of it, most are more than willing to share their knowledge BUT there are ways of making the learning curve a bit less painful – starting on small projects, rather than expensive big castings is one of them.

[John ShepherdParticipant @johnshepherd38883]

I don't think there is a definitive answer to this as every ones needs and expectations are different and David has a difficult balancing act every month.

When I introduced my son to the lathe we made a simple depth gauge, It involved turning and drilling and we had a finished item in an afternoon. Anything more involved or protracted would have put him off.

Similarly when my grandson showed an interest in steam I bought a kit of parts for a simple boiler and oscillator. There was nothing that I could not have found in my scrap box but he had the advantage of seeing all the parts and how they went together from the start and there was a natural progression to a working model over a short time.

For me, I am just near the end of a Minnie. It has been built over several years with many parts made at least twice, taps an tools broken and worn out and it has been a good excuse to buy new tooling.

Personally I don't like articles based on obscure machines but more complex tooling can sit alongside the simpler stuff. I enjoy breaking off from a long term project like the Minnie to make a small item of tooling and the inspiration often comes from MEW articles. Without these diversions and 'quick wins' I would have given up years ago.

As for beginners, a lot of questions on various forums involve basic but important things like surface finish and accuracy. The answers are often confusing and contradictory and what we need is the wisdom of the likes of Tubal Cain (not the American imposter) Which brings me onto the second point about reprints of old articles in MEW and the answer is yes please.

John Shepherd

[John CoatesParticipant @johncoates48577]

I think the problem with starting a big build straight off is that any failure along the path to completion could cost a lot of money and be a serious dent to confidence. I have not built any models – I make tooling from MEW articles or the WPS books or make bits for my motorbikes, but I have had enough failures along the way to provide stern reminders about over confidence or enthusiasm, running before I can walk!

There are many lessons to learn and they do successively build on each other. I have enough broken taps to remind me every day of the week how to do it incorrectly!

As I said, I haven't built anything, but aren't such activities a succession of activities which do not go into the detail as to how to accomplish each step? In which case they would be daunting for a newbie.

John (newbie of 2 years)

[Harold Hall 1Participant @haroldhall1]

Looking here Alan will give you a clue to Brian's experience, and he has already disposed of a Myford 7 and one other, name escapes me at the moment.

Pleased you found my letter interesting, penned it many months ago, must have been hiding on David's hard drive.

Harold

[DitheringParticipant @dithering]

Hi Guys,

I would have replied to some of these posts sooner but I didn't know the letter had been published.

To come clean about my experience, I have had quite a lot of experience in re-furbishing machine tools. Specifically, (long ago) a Myford Super 7 and an Archdale vertical mill which I intended to use for model engineering. But I worked a long way from home and was tired and children came along so I never used them for anything other than tinkering – repairing things around the home and the car and so on.

I was never really happy with either of them because, although I refurbished them quite well cosmetically, they were never really first class so, as I neared retirement, I sold them and bought some new machines.

But I still didn't know what I wanted to do with them!

When I actually retired I bought a Boxford shaper, in a fairly disgusting condition, and re-furbished that. It works well and I'm pleased with my efforts but I did it really to give me something to do to get over that period just after retiring when most people are at a bit of a loss.

I recently did the same with a Boxford lathe but now it's time to do something that has some point to it. My wife is insisting on it!

So now comes the problem. Although I know how to use a lathe and milling machine and most other tools I've never actually made anything that had to be to any particular dimensions so – I'm a beginner.

I have always wanted to make a substantial steam locomotive but I've never really believed that I could do it. MAC's description of his experience in building his first locomotive, with a lot less experience in general machining than I have, has encouraged me to start and I'm on my way.

Now, the point of my letter was not that I wanted any questions answered but in response to David's request for "Beginner's Projects". I was suggesting that beginners do not really want "beginner's projects" but more advanced projects broken down into small pieces and well explained. Oldies, like me, haven't got the time to learn all the basics by making small items they don't want and youngsters won't have the patience because they won't see the point.

I accept the argument that people may get fed up with how long it takes to complete a whole model but, on the other hand, perhaps the pleasure of completing each small part and seeing a larger model taking shape will keep their interest. Perhaps not. Who knows. Everyone's different.

A lot of people will lose interest, whichever way they start, because they don't really want to do it – they just want the finished product. So the cost of getting to the stage of knowing whether they have a "vocation" or not has to reasonably low.

Looking a MAC's website it really does look as if someone with little experience can start something big and see it through – piece by piece.

Regards,

Brian.

[Geoff TheasbyParticipant @geofftheasby]

Brian,

I sympathise with you. I am approaching the problem by building small stationary engines, as I don't think I have the patience to build a large, comprehensive model. This means I can run them on the bench at any time, just by firing up the compressor. I'm a very slow builder, who likes to think carefully about what I am going to do, and then doing it bit by bit, learning as I go. I am currently building a Stan Bray design, Opus Proximum, from a M.E. special publication of a couple of years ago. Such models could be built quite quickly, and give more or less instant results, rather than a project taking years to build, with all the chances to make big mistakes. I am apprehensive about drilling the steam passages in the cylinder, which will be brass, but I am proposing to buy special drills with which to do it, and I haven't broken a tap yet, you can feel them bending before they start to stick. I must have tapped hundreds of M3 holes in aluminium and steel, at my work in an electronics company. As stated above, there are ways of getting broken taps out of brass, the use of alum or spark erosion being two.

Regards

Geoff

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

I think the problem here is "learning". When I started off in earnest with my first lathe everything took ages and I kept making mistakes. But as you go on everything gets easier and now I find that you just start to work on that tricky part and somehow (usually but not always) things go swimmingly and suddenly it's finished and the right size and seemed much easier than you expected. They reckon that to become "expert" at something, whether it's playing the violin or making a chair, you need 10,000 hours practice – now I've got nothing near that, but it's true that any skill that needs a combination of manual skill and careful thought takes a long time to become second nature. So there's no substitute for practice and you just have to get used to it. It's much safer to start on a toolmaker's clamp since (a) if you mess up then there isn't much wasted and (b) once it's finished you'll probably use it for the rest of your life. Also those little projects give you quick feedback and encouragement since you get something finished and useful quickly. But a finished cylinder or loco driving wheel in itself is no use at all. There's also something about the journey being more important that the destination here…

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

Sorry to bring this up again but if MEW Issue 188 has been published why does the website homepage states issue 187 is the latest, (and 187 is the latest shown in the digital versions)

Does anyone know what the publication dates are supposed to be for MEW. Do newsagents get copies before postal subscribers or digital subscribers?

Ian P

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, I was fortunate to being taught how to use tools by my farther from as early as I can remember. Although I wasn't allowed to use them at the preschool age I do remember watching my dad using them, and was also allowed to watch him use his little lathe (which I still have) I had the advantage of doing metal work throughout my secondary school years, but my dad always said that I had a natural ability for using tools of various types, and I think he was correct, however I still had to have practical experience to make things to a suitable standard, that is, when I look at one or two things that I made at school I can now see the slight errors in them which I couldn't see at the time.

I think that not every one who embarks on any type of metal work will succeed with their quest, and will give it up (I was like that when I thought I could learn to play the bass guitar, I was absolutely U/S at it, so I gave it up and sold it) others will pick it up and didn't realise they had such an ability, but I think that most of us will feel our own work in different areas is not quite as good as someone else's. I say if you have a feeling for making something a bit more adventurous, then give it ago, you won't know till you try, but you must bear in mind you may make a costly mistake, but then if you haven't made a mistake then you haven't made much at all.

Ian P, subscribers get their copies about a week before they are in the shops or on the digital issues, MEW 188 is supposed to be on sale on the 16th March.

Regards Nick.

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

Posted by Nicholas Farr on 11/03/2012 20:33:38:

Hi, I was fortunate to being taught how to use tools by my farther from as early as I can remember. Although I wasn't allowed to use them at the preschool age I do remember watching my dad using them, and was also allowed to watch him use his little lathe (which I still have) I had the advantage of doing metal work throughout my secondary school years, but my dad always said that I had a natural ability for using tools of various types, and I think he was correct, however I still had to have practical experience to make things to a suitable standard, that is, when I look at one or two things that I made at school I can now see the slight errors in them which I couldn't see at the time.

I think that not every one who embarks on any type of metal work will succeed with their quest, and will give it up (I was like that when I thought I could learn to play the bass guitar, I was absolutely U/S at it, so I gave it up and sold it) others will pick it up and didn't realise they had such an ability, but I think that most of us will feel our own work in different areas is not quite as good as someone else's. I say if you have a feeling for making something a bit more adventurous, then give it ago, you won't know till you try, but you must bear in mind you may make a costly mistake, but then if you haven't made a mistake then you haven't made much at all.

Ian P, subscribers get their copies about a week before they are in the shops or on the digital issues, MEW 188 is supposed to be on sale on the 16th March.

Regards Nick.

Nick

Thank you for answering my question.

Since we have not yet the reached the 16th March, how was it possible that this thread (relating to Issue 188) could be started? It does seem from the amount of replies that quite a few people have read issue 188.

I searched the magazine (187) and this website and could not find any details about publication dates (but then the site search facility is pretty useless anyway).

Maybe my copy of 188 will come in Mondays psot.

Ian

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

We will change home page on the day the magazine goes on sale in the shops.

The digital editoin is updated by the office.

We (the editors) have no control over this.

regards David

[Joseph RamonParticipant @josephramon28170]

It's no coincidence that the Stuart 10V used to be the standard entry point for model engineering, It comes with all the fixings, so no extras needed. It's straightforward to build and there's a good instruction book. It's small enough that you can build it on a 2 1/2" centre lathe and no milling machine. Even for a novice it's only amonth or two's spare evenings of work. Finally, as long as it isn't stiff even if you haven't made the best job in the world you can run it off low pressure steam, an air compressor or even a tyre pump.

I think the problem we face is that too many designs out there are overly complex and expensive, but mostly that they require extras to be bought and lack simple, step by step instructions (the killer for most peopel is how to safely hold the unusually shaped parts – a picture and a few words can solve this at a stroke).

Joey

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Posted by Dithering on 11/03/2012 11:21:40:

Hi Guys,

…………………….. youngsters won't have the patience because they won't see the point……………..

Regards,

Brian.

That's rather a broad brush statement Brian. When real engineering etc courses in schools were abandoned for 'Blue Peter' (for want of a better description) technology, I used to run after school, voluntary 'Introductory Engineering Metalwork 'classes for anyone who wanted to turn up. They proved very popular with quite a few students and the favourite project was a simple toolmakers clamp. The act of using a milling machine, drill press, taps. dies and a few hand tools to produce a product comparable to a commercially produced item in a short space of time (yes, the blacking was excellent) certainly was thrilling for them.

It was a real 'grown up' activity in their 15 year old eyes. Furthermore it was almost inevitably a successful and useful end product which led to increased self confidence and often determination to do better, and as any educator will tell you nothing inspires like success and nothing demotivates like failure.

Every so often now that I'm retired I meet one of these young people who thank me for the inspiration I afforded and many went on to become professional engineers. The humble toolmakers clamp has a lot to answer for.

Best regards

Terry

[David HanlonParticipant @davidhanlon38496]

Just received 188 in the mailbox here, so here is my comments for what they are worth,..

Editors Bench Letter:

Just shows that everyone has a different opinion of 'Beginner'. I class myself as a 'Beginner' because I have never touched a lathe or milling maching before. I have spent 30 years as a professional engineer (Semiconductor, and now IT for my sins) + lots of car mechanics and DIY. Is that really a beginner? Who knows … I think this is part of the 'Help the beginners' problem.

Personally I am really enjoying and profiting from the beginners series currently running in MEW, and (BTW) I have completed a toolmakers clamp – and the cylindrical square (from Harolds Lathe Book), now working my way through making the various clamps from the Milling Machine book!

Costs = 000's pounds to equip the workshop (50th Birthday present from my wife), Monetary value = ~5 pounds so far, Pleasure in completing them = Priceless! My cylindrical clamp sat on top of the telly for a while to be admired (by me) Cath (my wife) and kids just looked somewhat bemused!

Keep up the good work David et al.

Harold Hall letter

I agree with Harold – I think that understanding the reasons and (to some extent) the theory makes solving the problems that much easier. In this way I will hopefully learn enough to be able to build from plans (or even design stuff myself) rather than following detailed instructions and building from kits.

I must admit I am a bit of a fan of Harold…

Anyway enough for now, need to go back to work .

Dave

[Harold Hall 1Participant @haroldhall1]

Thanks Dave, but please ease of a little, else I may need to go out a buy myself some bigger hats, leaving me with less cash for the workshop.

Harold

[David HanlonParticipant @davidhanlon38496]

Apologies Harold, I would hate to be responsible for lack of workshop cash .

Regards

Dave

[David Paterson 4Participant @davidpaterson4]

I aspire to this – but it is why at 53 I come home with blood from falling off the bike

The Cape

Eight years old with flour sack cape
Tied all around his neck
He climbed up on the garage
Figurin' what the heck
He screwed his courage up so tight
The whole thing come unwound
He got a runnin' start and bless his heart
He headed for the ground

He's one of those who knows that life
Is just a leap of faith
Spread your arms and hold your breath
Always trust your cape

All grown up with a flour sack cape
Tied all around his dream
He's full of piss and vinegar
He's bustin' at the seams
He licked his finger and checked the wind
It's gonna be do or die
He wasn't scared of nothin', Boys
He was pretty sure he could fly

He's one of those who knows that life
Is just a leap of faith
Spread your arms and hold your breath
Always trust your cape

Old and grey with a flour sack cape
Tied all around his head
He's still jumpin' off the garage
And will be till he's dead
All these years the people said
He's actin' like a kid
He did not know he could not fly
So he did

He's one of those who knows that life
Is just a leap of faith
Spread your arms and hold your breath
Always trust your cape

"The Cape" – Guy Clark – 1995

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

When I get too old to be useful i want to climb a mountain, drink a bottle of whisky and fade out in the cold. In an ideal world the red kites will eat me before I'm found

On a more cheerful note, I reckon model engineering is a brilliant brain-eye-hand hobby that must be as good (or better) than any exercise for staving of brain decay in the later years.

Neil

Edited By Stub Mandrel on 14/03/2012 21:30:52

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