MEW Workshop Tales Artie Moore and Titanic

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

My hunch, and I have only some contemporaneous evidence to back this up is that Artie did want to join the Marconi Company/ies, but he had first to qualify with the Post Master General’s certificate.

He was getting on a bit and at the age limit of 25 for joining Marconi, and couldn’t afford the course at either the Marconi School then in Liverpool or the British School of Telegraphy in Clapham London, so the local education committee made an exceptional bursary of the largest amount for that year so he could go to the British School of Telegraphy. That decision was made on 22nd September 1911 initially.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 19/06/2023 17:50:25:

Posted by Hopper on 19/06/2023 15:32:15:

Well, Artie must have picked up something on his magnificent erection or he would not have bothered to pursue a hobby in radio. There were no radio stations to listen to in those days so ships etc would have been a big part of what was on air. But according to THIS interesting Science Museum article, the Titanic's radio signal would have traveled only about 300 miles in daylight and maybe two or three times that at night. So 900 miles maximum. The Titanic sank near Newfoundland, about 2,200 miles from Swansea. Seems more likely Artie might have picked up signals from other, closer, ships relaying the Titanic's desperate message?

My grandfather was a radio operator in the navy between the wars. He once was assigned to what was effectively a Clyde puffer on the roster of a battleship (Renown, I think). He was on the Caledonian Canal near Loch Ness and needed to signal the ship which was cruising through the Hebrides. He sent out a general call for a relay, as he couldn't get a direct signal, with lots of mountains in the way. He got his relay (in morse) via another British warship, and at the end enquired where the relay ship was stationed – the answer was New Zealand!

It's likely that Artie's and my grandfather's signals were boosted by bouncing around the upper atmosphere, which can allow long distance signals with low-power equipment, especially in days when there was vastly less interference.

Neil

So we are back to square one on that issue then! It is not highly probable that Artie received a direct, rather than relayed, signal from Titanic, but it is possible via fluke of luck that Titanic's radio waves bounced off the ionosphere etc and down into his valley. Stranger things have happened. New Zealand is a lot further away from UK than Newfoundland is, about 5 times as far, with whole continents in between.

Edited By Hopper on 20/06/2023 04:07:16

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by julian atkins on 19/06/2023 19:47:05:

.

… said Artie received the Titanic signals in the loft of Gelligroes Mill, which would imply that Artie had abandoned his shed to the confines of what would clearly have been a very dusty and at times noisy environment. […]

.

I have not read every word of this thread; so please forgive me if this has been mentioned already:

**LINK**

https://historypoints.org/index.php?page=gelligroes-mill-pontllanfraith

States: [my emboldening]

The Moore family took over the mill in 1874 and supplied feed and seeds to farmers. In the early 20th century electricity generators were installed, using water power to charge batteries for local residents’ wireless sets. Artie experimented with radio technology and had his own receiver at the mill. He had another receiver on Mynyddislwyn, the high ground to the south east, where he would listen for messages from afar at night, when the radio signals carried further because of the lack of interference from sunlight.

So, perhaps not such a dusty environment as we might first imagine ?

MichaelG.

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P.S. __ fact-checkers/myth-busters might like to work their way through this:

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/practical-wireless/20210311/281633897979862

 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 20/06/2023 05:42:06

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Despite the apparent misnomer in most reports …

This is probably the referenced book by Sir Oliver Lodge:

**LINK**

http://www.free-energy-info.tuks.nl/Lodge.pdf

MichaelG.

.

Edit: __ and it includes the Appendix, which is omitted from modern reprints 

Ref. https://rsgb.org/main/blog/publications/books-extra/2021/01/21/modern-views-of-electricity/

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 20/06/2023 06:18:34

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 20/06/2023 05:25:24:

…Artie experimented with radio technology and had his own receiver at the mill. He had another receiver on Mynyddislwyn, the high ground to the south east, where he would listen for messages from afar at night, when the radio signals carried further because of the lack of interference from sunlight.

Aah! The second radio. On the grassy knoll… The plot thickens.

Well spotted.

PS Well spotted indeed! The linked to Press Reader article seems the most comprehensive to date and does explain a lot more about the Titanic's radio, including it had previously transmitted to Port Said and Tennerife some 3,000 miles distant and that on the fatal night, the Marconi station at Cornwall received direct signals from Titanic. So entirely possible that Artie's rig up the hill from the mill picked up that same signal.

But yet again, no sources cited in the article. It is a general magazine article, not a scholarly paper so no surprise.

Julian, the author's email address is at the top of the article Michael linked to, and the article is only two years old so there is a pretty good chance you could contact him and perhaps find out his sources. (Sounds as though it comes back to the Artie Moore Am Radio Society yet once again, mentioned toward the end of the article. So contacting them directly may be the only way to really find out. The author may be able to tell you who he spoke to and share contact details.)

Edited By Hopper on 20/06/2023 06:30:46

Edited By Hopper on 20/06/2023 06:32:45

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

PPS, here is some background info on Scott Caldwell, author of the Press Reader article MG linked to. Should be enough there to track him down through his company or university. Or even the white pages or LinkedIn etc. LINK

It appears he is an experienced researcher (PhD) and writer so good chance his sources are good.

 

Edited By Hopper on 20/06/2023 06:44:00

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

Hi Hopper and Michael,

Thanks for the links.

I have to disagree about Scott Caldwell in respect of his article about Artie Moore. It merely regurgitates earlier inaccurate articles, and most significantly repeats the same errors. In essence what I stated in my first post of this thread.

Cheers,

Julian

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Thanks for this thread Julian ! Having always had an interest in radio and the question of what was received and how, was 1912 a good year for skip conditions ? It seems strange that this story has not been a part of Titanic history bearing in mind how much has been written. Noel.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Regarding the model engine, and thereby the prize …

We may need some international co-operation here : **LINK**

https://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/serial?id=modelengelec

MichaelG.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by julian atkins on 20/06/2023 09:50:56:

Hi Hopper and Michael,

Thanks for the links.

I have to disagree about Scott Caldwell in respect of his article about Artie Moore. It merely regurgitates earlier inaccurate articles, and most significantly repeats the same errors. In essence what I stated in my first post of this thread.

Cheers,

Julian

Well, I did say that it sounds like it might get back – yet once again – to that Artie Moore Am Radio Assn. But there does seem to be more info in Caldwell's article on the radio distance aspect and other matters.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 20/06/2023 10:28:45:

Regarding the model engine, and thereby the prize …

We may need some international co-operation here : **LINK**

https://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/serial?id=modelengelec

MichaelG.

I wonder if anyone on the forum has a copy of the original ME article on Artie's model engine they can post? It was published in 1909, Volume 21, Issue 451, Page 585 under the byline of Arthur E Moore.

If sufficient detail is included it would be an interesting project to make a replica of the engine of the chap who is reputed to have received the Titanic's SOS and gone on to pioneer sonar.

It

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by noel shelley on 20/06/2023 10:11:57:

Thanks for this thread Julian ! Having always had an interest in radio and the question of what was received and how, was 1912 a good year for skip conditions ? …

This graph is from the Wikipedia article on Sunspots, and attributed to NASA.

It shows that the sunspot cycle was at a minimum in 1912. Radiation from the sun varies on a 22 year cycle, not heat, but wavelengths that ionise the upper atmosphere, causing the Northern Lights and many invisible electronic phenomenon that affect radio signals all the time. Solar Storms occasionally disrupt power distribution systems on a continental scale.

What ionisation does depends on the layers height and the frequency of the signal. The layer can act as a filter or a mirror. Below a certain frequency, ionised layers tend to absorb radio energy, which is why the range of low frequency signals increases at night and drops during the day. In daylight, the layer is reenergised by the sun and gets thicker. The mirror is closer to the ground, reducing skip distance, and much of the signal is absorbed, not reflected. At night, the layer thins out, absorbing less of the signal, and the effective height of the mirror rises. More energy is reflected, and it's reflected from higher up, resulting in greater range.

As frequency rises, the ionises layer becomes more reflective, allowing short wave signals to bounce repeatedly, potentially circling the planet. But the mirror is easily penetrated by very short waves, which tend to be limited to just over the horizon range, and bounce off almost everything.

The above is a simplification: there are actually several layers, not always present, at different heights. As a result there are plenty of opportunities for anomalous propagation, where signals suddenly drop out or travel unexpected long distances.

Like the weather, propagation is fairly predictable. Depending on the date and time of day it's possible to exploit 'conditions' by selecting frequencies and antenna to suit the path and distance. Far from perfect service, for example the US Navy failed to warn Pearl Harbour that Japan was about to declare war because 'conditions' had temporarily disabled their direct radio link. Seems no-one though of trying the US Army circuit, so the message was sent as a civilian telegram, taking too long because it went by a mix of cable and shorter wireless links. The message was delivered by a man on a push-bike during the attack.

What effect might the sunspot low in 1912 have had on Artie? It will have caused long wave signals to travel further than normal, especially 300 metre wave signals. On the other hand low sunspots make transmission of short wave harmonics less likely.

It's hard to tell because wireless equipment in 1912 wasn't tuned. Later equipment is much sharper, essentially only sending and receiving on one narrow frequency. Artie's transmitter is only tuned very broadly by the aerial, which would respond well to fundamental and multiples, but also to almost everything else. His receiver is only slightly better. I believe the Titanic's antenna type tends to suppress even harmonics, but not odd. So a 300 metre fundamental might have a strong 75 metres component, that skipped, and was detected by Artie's simple system. The layer hypothesis was suggested in 1902, but there wasn't enough evidence to confirm the theory until 1923.

Early copies of Model Engineer magazine are full of Wireless projects. My 1919 example is entitled 'The Model Engineer and Electrician'. Lots of brass. Quite a lot of Artie's equipment is made with Model Engineering type metal work, greatly facilitated by a lathe which could also be used to wind those giant induction coils. I'm fairly sure his morse key is home-made, and probably many other small parts. I'd like to know where the metalwork was done. Possibly in the mill, more likely in one of the neighbouring collieries or railway workshops, where lathes were essential. Old maps reveal this part of Wales wasn't an agricultural backwater: young Artie probably had access to a wide range of technical skills and facilities.

Dave

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 20/06/2023 12:18:33:

[…]

 

I'd like to know where the metalwork was done. Possibly in the mill, more likely in one of the neighbouring collieries or railway workshops, where lathes were essential. Old maps reveal this part of Wales wasn't an agricultural backwater: young Artie probably had access to a wide range of technical skills and facilities.

.

One of my recent references clearly [albeit perhaps erroneously] states that Artie had a home-built lathe that was driven by the water-wheel.

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 20/06/2023 13:00:34

[BufferParticipant @buffer]

Talking of Titanic. How many of you would go to view the Titanic in a sub controlled by one button and a Logitech play station controller?

 

Edited By Buffer on 20/06/2023 18:37:14

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Certainly NOT me ! My thoughts are with the poor souls for whom the search is on ! Noel.

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

Artie Moore’s 16th December 1909 article for ME (about his horizontal steam engine) mentions that he had made his own lathe. It isn’t a very detailed article in many respects, and doesn’t mention how his lathe was powered or where it was located. Running it off the water wheel as claimed many years later could easily be supposition. I’m not too happy with it being run off the Mill water wheel. He stated in the 1909 article that he started the horizontal steam engine some 4 years earlier, and was pretty much a lone hand making it without drawings, and had only recently been aware of the ME magazine. It was of 1 9/16” bore and 1 1/2” stroke and he altered its single eccentric to later have proper Stephensons valve gear with a reversing mechanism. At 20 psi it did 800 rpm. No details of any boiler.

I suppose if he could make a dynamo run off the Mill, then he was capable of making an electric motor? But I think that in 1909 that would be of greater significance and interest than his rather basic horizontal steam engine in 1909, and the timings are not consistent, as his interest in matters relating to electricity and wireless telegraphy would appear to be after 1909. Or perhaps he just called upon one of his brothers to operate a treadle for the lathe? (My own lathe is pretty basic with no back gear, and I’ve turned 3 sets of wheels for miniature locos and a 5” gauge wagon simply by turning by hand the end of the mandrel by hand for certain stages! For other locos I used other ME club members’ lathes on the condition that I cleaned them down thoroughly removing all the cast iron crap left on the lathe!).

In Artie’s article of 1909 he mentioned boring out roughly the bore of the cylinder, then finishing it with emery. It was stated to be a brass cylinder. He mentions making some of his own castings, which I did myself for my first loco except in my case this was in the facilities of Ryde High School metal work department when I was in the 6th form. He states that the base for the engine and the flywheel were cast by a local foundry.

My first workshop was in my bedroom in my parents’ house. Then I bought a nice but small shed to go in their garden. So perhaps certain parallels with Artie, who definitely did have his wireless telegraphy set in a wooden shed behind the Mill cottages and barn.

I don’t think that I would want to be in the Mill with it’s dust and noise, and I would want to be in my own ‘space’ and not to be constrained by only doing stuff when the Mill was in operation. I also don’t think that the Mill was particularly active by 1909. This isn’t like other parts of the UK with huge fields of corn and barley etc. It was really turning into a wholesaler of stuff. One of the Kelly’s Directory entries of the period includes a shop as part of the Mill. The Gwent Archive doesn’t have a full set of the Kelly’s Directory, but of those that they have and I looked at this was pretty clear.

 

 

Edited By julian atkins on 20/06/2023 22:07:00

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

Hi Dave (SillyOldDuffer),

Can I ask you about the coherer please that apparently Artie used. It is subsequently claimed much later on that Artie upgraded his wireless telegraphy set after October 1911 or thereabouts so that by the time Titanic sank his set was not that as per the Daily Sketch pics that we now have the glass plate negatives of, and was better.

I don’t think he would have had much time to do this anyway, as he then went away to London to study for 3 months, but is there evidence of a coherer in the Daily Sketch pic of the inside of his shed? I don’t think you saw one in the pic that you annotated. If not, had he already upgraded his set by the beginning of October 1911 when the pic you so helpfully analysed was published? (This would actually be potentially quite an important matter in considering the veracity or otherwise of other accounts).

Many thanks again for all your help on this.

Cheers,

Julian

Edited By julian atkins on 21/06/2023 00:03:38

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

I suppose (and not state as any fact, or based on any primary source evidence) that Artie Moore might have been very happy to get away from Gelligroes Mill where he had had this most debilitating accident in his youth.

What we do know is that although ill in 1948/9, Artie was not interred or cremated back in the land of his birth, but when he died his family travelled to Bristol for the service.

I find that very odd.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by julian atkins on 21/06/2023 02:01:14:

I suppose (and not state as any fact, or based on any primary source evidence) that Artie Moore might have been very happy to get away from Gelligroes Mill where he had had this most debilitating accident in his youth.

What we do know is that although ill in 1948/9, Artie was not interred or cremated back in the land of his birth, but when he died his family travelled to Bristol for the service.

I find that very odd.

 

According to the AMAR Society/Wikipedia he had returned from Jamaica very ill with Leukaemia and went into a convalescent home in Bristol, where he died. I would suppose that was where the body was so that was where they held the service.  He had been away from Gelligroes for almost 40 years by that stage so quite possible he no longer had close family living there nor other strong current connection. His parents could have quite possibly been dead by 1949?

Haven't seen any mention of whether Artie had a wife or kids, but that side of the family may well have been from somewhere other than Gelligroes and decided where to have the funeral. Or maybe he was a lone old man and the convalescent home made the funeral arrangements. I guess we will never know.

 

Edited By Hopper on 21/06/2023 05:42:49

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by julian atkins on 20/06/2023 21:46:47:

My first workshop was in my bedroom in my parents’ house. Then I bought a nice but small shed to go in their garden. So perhaps certain parallels with Artie, who definitely did have his wireless telegraphy set in a wooden shed behind the Mill cottages and barn.

I don’t think that I would want to be in the Mill with it’s dust and noise, and I would want to be in my own ‘space’ and not to be constrained by only doing stuff when the Mill was in operation. I also don’t think that the Mill was particularly active by 1909. This isn’t like other parts of the UK with huge fields of corn and barley etc. It was really turning into a wholesaler of stuff.

.

I’m sure you are personally aware of the layout, Julian … but I think some of the popular accounts might have become obfuscated by the fact that the [old] Mill is quite a small stand-alone building.

I have already posted a link to the location on Google Earth, but this news story from 2020 includes an excellent modern photo of the building: **LINK**

Sign that pre-dates World War II goes missing from watermill

My own assumption [please correct me if I am wrong] is that the Moore’s general business would have been conducted from adjacent premises, rather than this specific building.

MichaelG.

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Edit: __ see also https://www.francisfrith.com/pontllanfraith/photos

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Edit: __ and, to support my assumption:

https://britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/300001880-gelli-groes-mill-pontllanfraith

https://britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/300001904-gelli-groes-millhouse-and-attached-barn-pontllanfraith

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 21/06/2023 05:45:21

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Just found this [poor quality] video: **LINK**

https://www.facebook.com/WindingH/videos/gelligroes-mill/294412108361415/

… intriguing at about 03:18

… could that be the aforementioned Pelton Wheel in the background ?

MichaelG.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

An interesting aside: The first over-sea radio message ever sent was in Wales, by Guglielmo Marconi in 1897.

Working for the UK post office at that time, Marconi was invited to Wales by Cardiff Post Office engineer George Kemp to perform the first over-sea transmission tests. See story here LINK

iN 1913 Marconi opened the first longwave radio station at Caernarfon, Wales, visiting the area frequently during its construction, and the construction of another station on the Wales coast at Tywyn.  Details: LINK

Marconi's mentor was Caernarfon-born Sir William Preece, chief engineer of the UK Post Office and wireless telegraph pioneer.

Could this longstanding link between Marconi, Wales and radio have led to his meeting with Artie? Tenuous but not impossible. But it does show that the idea of Marconi visiting remote parts of Wales in 1911/12/13 is not as outlandish as it might seem at first blush. He could have visited Artie on his way to or from one of his installations.

 

Edited By Hopper on 21/06/2023 06:38:21

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

The problem I have is that say if Marconi had visited this part of South Wales in 1912 there is no contemporaneous record of such a visit that I have been able to find so far. It isn't even mentioned in Artie Moore's obituary in1949.

All I can find is that at the Gwent Archive the Monmouthshire 'Special Higher Education sub-committee' minutes of 12th June 1912 record :-

"Mr Arthur E. Moore. We have heard with pleasure that Mr Arthur E. Moore of Pontllanfraith, has been appointed to a post under the Marconi International Marine Communication Company Limited, and we have authorised the payment to him of the balance of his Bursary amounting to £3 17s 6d"

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Yes it would be interesting to know where the local visit angle came into the story. Perhaps from a surviving family member in later years who passed it on to either the AMAR Society or the Blackwood Historical Society? Those two societies or their spokespersons seem to be the quoted source of all the 21st century media stories that pop up on the net. And every second or third one seems to mention Marconi visiting Artie at the mill.

There is mention of a niece of Artie's, one Margaret Hopkins, opening a Titanic centenary display at the Winding House Museum in 2012 HERE . Wonder of she is still around and contactable through the museum or white pages etc? She may have spoken to her uncle Artie about such things, or heard family stories about them. So obviously there has been some contact between Artie's surviving family and the museum/historical society types. Pretty good chance that is where information not in the early press reports could have come from. It also mentions the Blackwood and District Amateur Radio Society being involved.

Another interesting snippet I found (laid up on the couch today with a bung foot and nothing to do) is this LINK amazing first-hand account of the night by the radio operator of the nearby RMS Olympic. It captures fully the confusion of the situation and the essential but painstakingly slow role relaying radio messages played. Real Boys Own Adventure stuff. He does mention interestingly that reception was poor that night due to "atmospherics" which would perhaps not be conducive to radio waves traveling exceptionally long distances. Well worth a read just for the "ripping yarn" aspect.

 

 

Edited By Hopper on 21/06/2023 09:49:05

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Hopper on 20/06/2023 11:07:15:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 20/06/2023 10:28:45:

Regarding the model engine, and thereby the prize …

We may need some international co-operation here : **LINK**

https://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/serial?id=modelengelec

MichaelG.

I wonder if anyone on the forum has a copy of the original ME article on Artie's model engine they can post? It was published in 1909, Volume 21, Issue 451, Page 585 under the byline of Arthur E Moore.

If sufficient detail is included it would be an interesting project to make a replica of the engine of the chap who is reputed to have received the Titanic's SOS and gone on to pioneer sonar.

It

If is of reasonably modest length, I'd be happy to re-publish it in MEW, with some of the observations made in this thread – there's clearly more than a smidgin of interest!

Neil

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