MEW 214

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

Neil
re your last paragraph..look forward to it

Sugru.. ( or whatever it’s called)..offer a monthly prize for “best” use
.

Edited By jason udall on 10/03/2014 20:45:41

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

1. I had two series with the vice in, one made from the solid and one made from castings. The casting one was deliberately run first as it was a very detailed construction series for beginners. The other bice made from the solid was much shorter and has an ingenious method for holding the vice while the mounting remained out of the way under the workbench. I hope Neil will run this alternative series soon.

The beginners series is just that. For beginners. I put a lot of effort into writing that safety in the workshop guide. I believe it was thorough and complete. I explained why I put photographs of the security items in the previous article. Having had the workshop burgled recently and a Clark toolbox full of tools stolen (I did not know the toolbox was stolen for until a month afterwards as the Shed was filled with unsorted boxes destined for the other shed and house) I know what it is like to be robbed and I put the security in to try to prevent it happening to other people.

I am trying to explain everything so beginners can use the ideas in their own workshops. The hasp lock was used in an unusual way whiuch is why I photographed it. I did not fit it first time round as I was ill. I refitted it and modified the method and also added a bolt for a padlock. Again this was fitted with coach bolts and repair washers. How many beginners know what a repair washers is. Could they fit a lock and a bolt securely? I had to start the series somewhere. You are getting about 45 years of knowledge condensed into one series. I am about to move on with machining starting with the lathe. However I have asked Neil if he wants me to continue with the series or drop it. I await his reply.

Note, if you have any comments please post here or email david@david-a-clark.com

The david.clark@mytimemedia.com no longer comes through to me.

[DullnoteParticipant @dullnote]

Hi David I am a just starting out in this hobby, I know the series you started need to start somewhere and I am fine with that, setting up a shed is not an issue to me due to my background but it will be for other, so I can see why you started there.

I am looking forward to setting up lathes ect and how these should be used, some articles in the mag are beyond me at present.

A good balance between each skill level is required, I would also suggest this forum could be used to assist the articles, where experienced members could give further comment as required , or other points of view. This could help keep the article compact

coalburner can you tell me your definition of competent ? I play classical guitar as a hobby, at grade 5 I am competent, grade 6 and 7 ok grade 8 not very good, or do I need to be able to play every bit of music written to be competent. Competent to me is all relative to you skill level, I could be a competent novice player, or intermediate , advanced or concert player.

on saying the above I must say I have signed up for six months and at present I am not sure if I will renew, I am not convinced I am getting value for money, I read these forum more and have picked up more tip ect here than in the mag

jim

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

I don't want to be other than helpful, but sometimes I think the more experienced amongst us have forgotten where we started from and perhaps lost the art of putting yourself in the place of the beginner.

Just standing back and asking yourself ' What do I need to know to do this?' can be very revealing and it was a method of working I used extensively in my industrial days in getting complex ideas over to the less informed who were expected to work with them.

It is not easy to balance the level of input either, but I think some fairly general assumptions of the existing skills in the target audience are in order or they would be unlikely to be reading the material in the first place.

Just a few thoughts

Brian

[Gray62Participant @gray62]

Posted by Jim Greenhill on 11/03/2014 00:30:06:

coalburner can you tell me your definition of competent ? I play classical guitar as a hobby, at grade 5 I am competent, grade 6 and 7 ok grade 8 not very good, or do I need to be able to play every bit of music written to be competent. Competent to me is all relative to you skill level, I could be a competent novice player, or intermediate , advanced or concert player.

Jim, Competence is relative, I used to teach rock guitar to Grade 6 and am competent (and qualified) to do so. I build traction engines and tooling and consider myself competent although my output may not be to the standard of others on here.

I was not defining competence, I was quoting from the magazine , a line that DC1 had written, so maybe the question should be posed to him? It was merely used to draw attention to the fact that this series could run for a long time (maybe forever depending on the definition of competent).

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

I fully agree with Brian's post above. The secret is balance.

Too many starter projects and you loose the more experienced and even after a while the beginner will be more advanced and want more challenging work.

perhaps in every issue a simple starter project aimed at just the beginner ? Then the other projects can carry on from that ?

Even a marking system of skill ? Much like the AA do with the spanners although I have always wondered when a garage gets one spanner what happens when the bolt spins ? Anyway i digress. Perhaps a little row of micrometers ?

The other thing is the great unwashed out there that don't use this site. Perhaps a simple poll in the mag but answers have to be registered on line as a first option, then post for anyone still using a 286.

Not having held the job and knowing what it entails I often wonder what amount of editing goes off. I know some does because Tony had his whippet head part edited from his article, a classic in it's own right, only to be put back in letters later.

OTOH there have been articles that just don't make sense, the Myford DRO top slide which never mentioned the scale or showed a picture of it. So basically un-buildable from the readers point. Others as also mentioned that are so machine specific like the recent CNC conversion that used very complex helical gearboxes just so the writer could use an obsolete controller. That one missed the mark on many counts.

Tony Jeffree did one on the ML7 [ no I'm not married to him ] that was simple, used off the shelf components and was for a popular machine. This one has been followed and built many times.

[JoParticipant @jo]

I started by buying a metalworkers bench vice, then had to make a suitable bench to mount it on and then brought some hand tools (files/hacksaw/hand drill). Then realised that if I wanted to turn metal/make holes I needed some machine tools, sold a motorcycle and brought a knackered old Myford : Total time 2 weeks, only 3 years later could afford to buy a pillar drill . 4 articles in and the poor starter hasn't made any swarf, no wonder Jim is looking for inspiration else where. Beginners need to feel that they can and are achieving something quickly as time goes on they will look for greater challenges.

Brian: I write most days a series of threads ( **LINK** , **LINK** ….) that are aimed at teaching newbies how to do things that at first may look difficult. I don't need to pad it with distractions/weasel words that might confuse them.

Jo

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Les Jones doesn't want to publish his Chester DB10G tumbler reverse because it is too specific. Ok, I have a Warco 220 lathe aka Mashstroy C210T which is also somewhat scarce. Does this mean that I should not publish anything I have done? And what about all those hundreds, maybe 1000s of articles on the Myford Series 7 lathes, all of which are no earthly use to me?

At the moment, I am trying to complete a write-up of a project for my lathe which leans heavily on one of Harold Hall's ideas for the Myford? Would I indeed have been able to produce this item without Harold's idea? Possibly, but knowing how my brain works, more likely that I would have struggled mightily and not overcome. Or possibly produced something rather poor.

The point about this is that Harold's idea for the Myford Series 7, led me to adapting his design for my lathe so there is an amount of cross-fertilization. So, my write-up, although writen for the Warco 220 lathe, and using Harold's original idea can be taken as an example of how to modify an item for use elsewhere. It also explains the changes I have had to make. So Les, publish your design. Who knows, it might even be suitable for my lathe with a bit of modification.

Now, people here are commenting that some of the articles are a) too simple; and b) being padded out as a money-making exercise.

It is only about two years ago that there was a request by a reader for simple and full instructions; for established writers to refrain from eg, "in the usual way" since by definition, a newcomer (oh how I dislike that word "newbie&quot will not know "the usual way". One of the articles I have submitted to Neil was written purely from that point, that of a new-comer and goes into great detail about the how and why of the project. Should I have done it? Because let us be honest, if, and it is a big if, it does get published, it will meet all the above comments about padding and being a money-making exercise. So, as I said, should I have done it? Or should I have allowed the newcomer to wallow in his ignorance because nobody can be bothered trying to explain things. At least I have tried. Which leads me onto…

….money-making. Rather big-headedly, I have no need of the money paid by the magazine. Furthermore, any money I receive leads me into contact with HMRC, Self-Assessment and a resultant tax demand of 20%. And from previous experience, this seems to have a cascading effect down the years. Therefore, any money I receive goes straight to my favourite charity. Now, fair enough, I might only be one of a small number of people doing this, but at least it explains that I am not doing it for the money.

I do not know the answer. I do remember what I was like 20+ years ago, indeed I remember having to ask what a milling machine was. And yes, I have said that before. It's the same with the thread about electronics elsewhere on this forum. I learned my electronics from two out-of-print books plus a small amount of help from training courses and technical college. But until I found those books, correction, until I was shown those books, I had no idea about transistor design. But the basic theory in those books was good enough for me to take it further and become, if not totally au fait with something, at least I am now able to do something with it.

There is a need for people to have access to basic theory and how to do things. Quite how basic is something else, but we do all need to remember what we were like when we were beginners. I'll finish with a half-remembered quote from Tom Walshaw (Tubal Cain), something along the lines of "we may know all about engineering, but the average butcher can most likely blind us with his knowledge about meat".

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

JS mentioned the US mag HSM, their incentive system is to extend the winners subscription by one month.

Ian S C

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

For the record, an author who has been accused of padding out a series to make money, actually instructed us to make the payments direct to a totally independent good cause.

I'm happy to hear views on articles, but please don't make assumptions about the motivation and character of contributors.

Neil

[JAParticipant @ja]

I have been an engineer all my working life and all that it has taught me is that I know less and less about engineering. All that a basic workshop training did for me was to provide me confidence.

I do not expect any model engineering magazine article to be of direct relevance to me although occasionally one is. I think their importance is that they show how others have approached a problem and overcome it. This, I believe, is the true value of such magazines and long may contributors write about tumbler gears on a Warco lathe even though I don't own one as long as I learn something.

JA

Edited By JA on 11/03/2014 12:32:46

[Les Jones 1Participant @lesjones1]

Hi Peter,
Sorry to be pedantic but I said that I did not think the tumbler design for the DB10G was suitable for publication because it was too specific. It might however be suitable for Neil's new readers tips section. I have had the lathe for several years but it has taken me until now to work out how to fit it into the limited space available. (And to find suitable gears which I bought last year at Harrogate from "Chesters" box of assorted gears at 4 for £10.00)
I thought the 1 to 99 pulses per rev tachometer design I submitted about 4 years ago would have been suitable as it could be used with almost any lathe or milling machine.

Les.

Edited By Les Jones 1 on 11/03/2014 12:47:05

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

I think ME & MEW has always done rather well with editors who actually know something about the content of the magazine which is not often a requirement for such a job. Perhaps this has led to too much expectation of their responsibilty for the detailed manipulation of the content.

On another tack I like the reference to music above. Someone can be concert level on the guitar and absolutely crap on piano. Would you then decry all their musical ability?

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

For me.

The beginners series DC..has seemed too much shed too little bench..
Its a question of balance..each article needs a balance. .” Now thats done lets chop some metal…”
Balance is part of the editors job. Balance within article and within edition of mag.

If I say that this series has shown the error of trying to publish , without another pair of eyes ( in most cases the editor), I speak from having that problem as a tech author. .tis a brave man who can get away with that..

.
Jason ( unpublished in this field)

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by jason udall on 11/03/2014 13:22:33:

Jason ( unpublished in this field)

.

Take heart Jason, neither was Wurzel Gummidge……………..

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by John Stevenson on 11/03/2014 13:39:01:

Posted by jason udall on 11/03/2014 13:22:33:

Jason ( unpublished in this field)

Take heart Jason, neither was Wurzel Gummidge……………..

Yes he was. He used the pen-name 'Stub Mangold'.

Neil

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

It seems to me that many people posting on here have lost sight of how little they knew (myself included) when starting out.

Surely the beginners series needs to be aimed precisely at starters and assume hardly any knowledge.

The subject of security is vital and needs full explanation, I certainly look at shed locking systems at friends and neighbours in horror, mostly they appear designed to prevent escape rather than stopping anyone getting in!

Ordinary screws on hinges and locking brackets etc are easily removed, that type of problem often gets overlooked.

 

Edited By V8Eng on 11/03/2014 14:13:14

[JoParticipant @jo]

Posted by V8Eng on 11/03/2014 14:06:16:

The subject of security is vital and needs full explanation, I certainly look at shed locking systems at friends and neighbours in horror, mostly they appear designed to prevent escape rather than stopping anyone getting in!

Ordinary screws on hinges and locking brackets etc are easily removed, that type of problem often gets overlooked.

So was the problem of the potential thiefs looking through the "light and airy " windows to see what they were about to break in to acquire… Why it is necessary to reinforce the bases of commercially available sheds (to take the weight of our machines). How to work out what minimum size shed would be needed to meet your modeling needs.. Why we insulate our sheds (for warmth and to prevent rust on our tools)……

Maybe if more of the page had been filled with useful advice for the budding workshop owner rather than photographs of different shaped commercially available wooden sheds : this is the sort of thing I term padding .

Jo

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Les,

Yes I was aware of what you said. The point I was trying to put across was that no matter how specific the item, it may well have ideas suitable for other machines. That was the point I was making about Harold Hall's design for the Myford Series 7 lathe – I have adapted it to suit my lathe, and that could apply to your design.

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Security: you are welcome to edit and print the advice I gave in a couple of long posts on another thread a few weeks back.

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

I did not suggest that David had overlooked fixing screws, it was tackled under matters arising.

Most people find out about those things the hard way so it was good to see it covered.

Light and airy windows, yes I seem to remember mention of smaller windows somewhere in the article for security, however any talk of reducing natural light levels seems raise a great diversity of opinions.

If I was to take issue with something in particular so far it would be the advice about electrical systems, no mention was made of the Building Regs part P requirements, something which is overriding and vital for the subject in hand, and get professional advice before even thinking about anything involving electrics.

 

Edited By V8Eng on 11/03/2014 20:31:09

[Martin CottrellParticipant @martincottrell21329]

Posted by V8Eng on 11/03/2014 14:06:16:

It seems to me that many people posting on here have lost sight of how little they knew (myself included) when starting out.

Surely the beginners series needs to be aimed precisely at starters and assume hardly any knowledge.

 

I agree with your second sentence but feel that those people criticising the articles for being too simplistic do make a valid point. I can only speak for myself here but my complaint was that the excessive padding of the articles with seemingly irrelevant waffle and excessive use of photographs to back up the text was probably alienating rather than educating the beginner. For instance, the author states his chosen lathe fitted easily into his car boot, fine, but does the beginner really require 2 photos of a car boot , empty & with lathe in to understand the statement ? Six photos of hasps, bolts & padlocks over 2 issues to show how to lock your shed securely, really? Exactly how many beginners will be so confused by reference to a double electric socket to the extent they need a photo to explain it? If you have to lead people by the hand to this extent you have to ask yourself is it wise to be encouraging them to be let loose on their own with sharp tools and rotating machinery?

The point I was trying to make in my post was that four months into the series the only practical work that has been done is to erect a shed and fit it with a secure lock. Fine if you've had to buy a shed, but what about those who wish to use their garage or even a room in the house for a workshop? They must be having counselling for Shed Envy by now because there is nothing of any substantial interest for them so far. Not an exactly exciting pace to embark on a new hobby, although it might explain to the younger newcomer why most Model Engineers seem so old if it took them the best part of 20 years to finally fire up the new lathe!

Regards, Martin. ( Old-ish and still learning!)

Edited By Martin Cottrell on 11/03/2014 21:45:37

[Gone AwayParticipant @goneaway]

Posted by Martin Cottrell on 11/03/2014 21:42:43:

They must be having counselling for Shed Envy by now because there is nothing of any substantial interest for them so far. Not an exactly exciting pace to embark on a new hobby …

 

If they've been subscribing for some time or if they take the digital edition, perhaps, while they're waiting, they could read/re-read the two lengthy and voluminous beginners' series that immediately preceded this latest effort:

– Engineering for Beginners: 20 parts MEW182-202

– Everyday Engineering for the Absolute Beginner: 16 parts MEW193-208

These two, seemingly interminable (the first is apparently still unfinished), series even overlapped for a good portion of their run. It's not clear to me why we need yet another series in apparently the same vein following directly on their heels.

I get a sense that beginners' series have reached the level of "political correctness" now.

Edited By OMG on 11/03/2014 23:58:03

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

In the days before MEW was a twinkle in Stan Bray's eye, the beginner to workshop practice was catered for by a proportion of the longer series in ME having a large dose of instruction as well as construction.

Perhaps MEW ought to feature an extended loco build series

Neil

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 12/03/2014 21:02:44:

Perhaps MEW ought to feature an extended loco build series

.

… and perhaps "The Final Nail" would be a suitable name for that loco.

to you, too !

MichaelG.

[Author]

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