MEW 186, Best ever issue

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi There

I did not miss this.

I don’t think you can turn a ten turn pot much more than 1 turn at a time.

I assumed this was an easy method of setting ten different speeds by turning the pot one turn rather than turning a normal pot 1 tenth of a turn.

regards David

 

 

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

David,

 

The ten turn control dials usually have a small window that clicks up by one increment each full rotation of the knob. The basic pot still only has the same overall speed change effect but it is divided into effectively 100 divisions if you are so minded to read the dial you can set it to, say 43%. In that way the speed control is not so coarse as a single turn.

 

All my inverters have been fitted with such devices (See MEW article on the M300 Inverter setup).

 

K

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi Kwil

That was more or less the way I read it.

My last use of a 10 turn pot was in a power supply I built about 35 years ago.

regards David

 

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

Well, I eagerly walked the half mile to my post box, then back to house. Quite disappointed with MEW186, just me really, I will eventually read all the content and will learn things, but not yet. I am starting to take offence being labeled a flat earther etc. I was using computers before some of you were born. I just am not interested now, and enjoy manual working, also very rarely make more than two of anything. Would you call an artist backward because he preferred paint to a digital camera ?

[Steve GarnettParticipant @stevegarnett62550]

Posted by Gordon W on 19/01/2012 10:31:06:

Would you call an artist backward because he preferred paint to a digital camera ?

 

I misread this at first. I thought you’d suggested that an artist would want to paint a picture of a digital camera – and that would be quite an interesting artistic statement in its own right!

 

As for the seemingly principled objections to CNC articles, I’ve never been quite sure whether this is purely on principle on the complainers’ part , or whether these people are objecting to the idea that some of the money they’ve spent on the magazine was for something they really don’t want to read (or even think about).

 

If the Editor makes a statement that in principle, some of the articles in the magazine may appear to be the ‘Works of the CNC Devil’ – well, then they’ve been warned, haven’t they? If they want to cancel their subscriptions on that basis, then so be it; it would be entirely their choice. It would be their absolute right to do so, and we’d have to respect that. Don’t see why he shouldn’t publish them though – in moderation. And as far as I can see, that’s exactly what he’d like to do. I don’t think that this is really an issue any more; we’re just listening to the complaints.

 

And, as forum users, we have to expect that too. If the magazine makes it dead easy for people to express their principled objections on a forum, then that’s what is going to happen.

 

All the rest of us have to do is to learn successfully to resist the urge to respond to them!

 

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi There

Some readers complain that no CNC content should be included as it is a waste of their money to get something they do not want to read.

regards David

 

 

[The Merry MillerParticipant @themerrymiller]

I think on that basis David that perhaps they should take out a subscription to “Luddites Monthly” where they would no be much happier about the content.

 

Why does this old chestnut keep on rearing it’s head?

 

Len. P.

 

 

[Gray62Participant @gray62]

There are often articles in MEW that I ‘don’t’ want to read, I still end up reading them out of idle curiosity .

Like they say, you can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time etc.

I think it’s probably time to lock this thread and put yet another CNC debate to bed.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Reply to Gordon W.

 

Don’t worry I haven’t singled you out

I coined the term “Flat Earth Society” not to apply to the manual workers here, if so then I’m a 90% Flat Earther, but to refer to the various folk with totally closed minds that because they are not interested they feel it shouldn’t be in ‘their’ magazine.

Incidentally I have yet to read one article they have contributed.

There is much in the mag that I’m not interested in but that doesn’t stop me glossing over the articles. You never know interests change and also what suits one discipline can often be transposed to another.

Recently I had need to understand better the process of metal etching so did a search and the best article I found was in a past copy of MEW. An article at the time I had glossed over but now gave me a far better insight of what it was able to achieve.

I do use CNC, probably 10%of my work hence the previous remark on 90% Flat Earther.

that 10% is limited to boring production runs or jobs that would be too complex / time consuming.

However that 10% probably transposes to 20 to 25% of work done so add the 90% manual and it’s easy to be working at more than 100%

John S.

[Martin WParticipant @martinw]

Hi

 

The latest offering of MEW had little in in that was relevant to me so wasn’t, in my opinion, a particular interesting issue. I don’t have a Tom Senior mill nor do I have a Perfecto Shaper so those articles have absolutely no direct relevance to me or my very small workshop. That said I WILL read them as it is always interesting to see how others have approached and solved various problems and there could well be, as in other articles, a hidden golden nugget of information that will help me now or later.

 

The set of articles covers a wide range of topics and that is what I find interesting. When it comes to CNC I believe that the content needs to reflect how deep this technology has penetrated the Model Engineering community and therein lies the problem. Too much then there is the outcry from the traditional hands on group and too little and the magazine is seen as not keeping up with the times. For me CNC is not nor is it likely to become a feature in my workshop as I just don’t have the space and can’t, yet, justify the cost. That said I would still be happy to see articles on CNC appear in MEW provided it is not at the total expense of the more traditional approach.

 

If you look at the electronics magazines on offer you now find that most projects have a micro controller at their heart, programmable chips, rather than being built from discrete components with fixed functionality as they used to be. This offers flexibility in design and rapid changes to the function of the circuit by use of software much as CNC does when the design of a part is complicated, needs changing quickly or it is necessary to perform several identical operations. I know that this is a crude analogy but there are similarities.

 

So yes some CNC as the market develops won’t harm anybody and if it is really not to some body’s taste then that article can always be skipped. In my opinion it’s all about balance and reacting, to a degree, on the popular response which is NOT necessarily the loudest or most vociferous rantings.

 

Who would want to be an editor beats me, I know I would lose my cool and say the wrong thing.

 

Just my five penny worth

 

Regards to all

 

Martin

Edited By Martin W on 19/01/2012 12:38:48

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by David Clark 1 on 19/01/2012 11:31:52:

Hi There

Some readers complain that no CNC content should be included as it is a waste of their money to get something they do not want to read.

regards David

 

 

 

 

 

 

Simples.

 

The mag is called Model Engineers Workshop.

Do CNC machines exist and are used in a model engineers workshop ?

 

If so then they have a place in the mag.

 

It’s not really a debate about CNC but a debate whether a minority calls the shots on what appears in the mag. It’s not as if David is overwhelmed with articles that are non CNC related unless we want more tool posts, bed stops etc.

 

John S.

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Just like Gordon W, I have done some programming in the past, although to be fair, nowhere near as deep as some people. But, I have shown that with even limited training coupled with self-teach I can do it. And now, having retired and having no need to program, I no longer have the interest.

 

What I do have in abundance is the desire to learn new things, to experiment, to see if I can do it: that’s I as in me, not a machine controlled by a computer program. Ok, the results won’t be up to the standard of CNC, but at least I have done it. And that’s where I stand.

 

Obviously CNC is here to stay, and there are people who like it and who want to do it in their home workshop. Fair enough. But this does mean that although I perhaps am not interested, MEW/ME will have to cater for these people, but please do not exclude manual only projects.

 

This debate, and the parallel one about electronic speed control v. belt changing will undoubtedly continue for decades yet. Actually I’ll make a prediction: both of these debates will continue until the price of electricity becomes so exhorbitant that we are reduced to using pedal powered machines and other manually powered tools!

Regards,

 

Peter G. Shaw

 

 

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by Peter G. Shaw on 19/01/2012 13:16:58:

 

This debate, and the parallel one about electronic speed control v. belt changing will undoubtedly continue for decades yet. Actually I’ll make a prediction: both of these debates will continue until the price of electricity becomes so exhorbitant that we are reduced to using pedal powered machines and other manually powered tools!

Regards,

 

Peter G. Shaw

 

 

 

 

Then the flat earth society will be moaning that the mag is not the place to discuss solar power

We will never win.

John S.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

MORE CNC PLEASE DAVID.

[Martin WParticipant @martinw]

Hi

 

This is slightly off topic but recently I made a set of drilling jigs for a close friend of mine. All I had to go on were the attachments and what they fitted onto. It was then a case of working out where they fitted and their positions relative to one another on a unit with complex curved surfaces which had to be held in close alignment.

 

I used a drawing package on my computer to draw out the parts, well before I went anywhere near metal, and trial fitted the bits here to establish whether or not I had got it right. There were changes that were needed and with the computer it was easy to move bits about, delete lines, change dimensions etc. No rubbing out of lines smudging of pencil lead etc.

 

Yes I could have done it with an old drawing board, square, and pencils but decided it was easier, tidier, more time effective to use my computer drawing package to finalise the design. Did ‘I’ get pleasure from using the computer to draw the finished item. Yes of course I did and what it gave me was that extra flexibility to change things easily. Yes I got great satisfaction from designing the jigs and then taking them through to manufacture and seeing them in use.

 

This isn’t really that different from using or not using CNC, currently I am a ‘Flat worlder and enjoying it, but the pleasure came from being able to design what was required and then having the ability to generate it whether it was the drawings or the finished product.

 

Not having a go at anyone but its just my way of doing things.

 

Regards

 

 

Martin

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

until the price of electricity becomes so exhorbitant that we are
reduced to using pedal powered machines and other manually powered
tools!

 

I’ve still got all the bits for my pedal powered Drummond, so I’m fine.

[John McNamaraParticipant @johnmcnamara74883]

Hi All
Gee I wonder if I should travel down this well trodden path
again. as the thread develops just like the pilgrim in pilgrims progress the
path inexorably leads to the slough of despond.

I spent the best part of the Christmas break working on the
final design for a CNC mill made from epoxy based castings. this week the order
for materials goes out. I mention this only as background to my comments.

An underlying current within the ongoing debate about the currently
named CNC Devil focuses on the relative merits of real engineers who use hand
driven tools versus those lazy good for nothings that just push a button. I am
a very tired of that argument!

 

If only it were true; just push a button and out pops a
part. The truth is that CNC only forms a small part of the process of making an
article. A lot of time, effort and experience is needed just to design the part;
then there is the sourcing of the materials and the necessary tools that are
needed to produce it. As with manual production you are always battling the
accuracy Demon and the finish Goblin. The same applies to CNC, and with CNC
getting your tool path to match the tool and the tool offsets for that slightly
out of spec cutter with the part is not easy, and maybe your machine has a few
quirks of its own. just as your manual machines do. To me any argument that
suggests that there is a diminution of skill using CNC is uninformed. Engineering
a well designed and well finished part by any method is not easy.

For the future generation of Model engineers The path is
pretty clear to me, and I am sorry if I offend the self confessed Luddites, but
unless we attract new blood to the hobby we love we will not be Luddites we
will be Dodo birds and we all know what happened to them. The current
generation are computer literate (and that includes many baby boomers) remember
the IBM PC was invented in 1980 thirty two years ago. The majority of us have
basic computer literacy.

The only real justification I can se for resistance to CNC
is cost, yes a number of MEW subscribers are retired and on fixed income, CNC
is not inexpensive. However it is getting cheaper. and maybe you already have a
machine you can adapt. There are so many user forms… The Mach 3 Forum, The
CNC zone, The practical Machinist forum to mention a few and best of all The ME
MEW here. With such a wide experience available a modest setup can be designed
and built. Lets hope ME leads the way. And building a machine will test every
trick to have learned using your existing tools to make all the necessary
parts. The electrics can be a bit fiddly but with the support that is available
that can be simplified.

The sad demise of Myford is clear testament to slavish
adoration of past glories. They should be leading the pack now given the design
synergy the company had, what a loss; the combined skills and experience dissipated.

Hand made tooling and modelling that has been the backbone
of the magazine for so many years is not going to disappear. However a few
topics have been covered dare I say it too well. We all know what those topics
are. A tweak here and there and the same old widget appears reborn.

I can only guess how difficult it is for a magazine editor to
get the balance right there are so many different factions to please. Without
getting into what should or should not appear in the magazine and with the benefit
of not being in the hot seat, may I suggest the quality of an article in terms
of depth of subject coverage and novelty should be placed higher on the list of
criteria. Sometimes I feel that the choosing bias was rather too much towards
content balance at the expense of quality; not an ideal strategy longer term.

Cheers
John McNamara

Edited By David Clark 1 on 19/01/2012 15:31:33

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi John

Recently articles have been chosen on the basis ‘that is what is available, I will use that’.

I have some articles left but would like some more.

More come in during the winter than the summer.

regards David

 

 

 

[BERTOParticipant @berto]

Posted by David Clark 1 on 19/01/2012 11:31:52:

Hi There

Some readers complain that no CNC content should be included as it is a waste of their money to get something they do not want to read.

regards David

 

 

When these readers get sick if reading another Myford article or have no need to build yet another toolpost maybe then they will turn thier attention to this type of mill or that type of lathe because they don’t own that same machine or they are not interested in reading about it or the modifications/improvements that the writer had made to it . Where will they spend thier money then ?

 

The addition of CNC articles to MEW i think would broaden the horizons of the magazine a little but don’t get me wrong in thinking that it means removing any of the articles for manual control machines or projects to suit them .

I was more or less inferring that an extra page or two could possibly be added to fit some CNC items in even if quarterly .

 

Also i remember MEW bringing out a workshop only special last year or the year before?

I wonder if there could be an oppertunity for something similar for the CNC advocates , not sure how well it would sell but…..

 

Another thing although being from another magazine and an entirely different feild of hobbies (electronics ) is a section in this magazine called servicemans log .

It is about the trails and troubles faced by an electronics service person and is interesting and sometimes comical to read .

I remember a few issues ago something similar in MEW , I think it was to do with an apprentice and thier early work history , it was enjoyable to read so maybe there could be some more of it if any of the readers have an interesting story to tell and how they solved some problem in the engineering , machining fields etc .

 

Just some thoughts …

 

IAN

 

 

 

 

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

John,

 

I’d forgotten about solar power. But (serious question) is it capable of supplying enough power to run moderate sized equipment? In my case I would require 550W for the lathe, and another 60W for the light. So if we said a maximum of 1Kw thus allowing a small margin for the CNC equipment.

 

And even if it was capable, wouldn’t we have to either convert it from DC to AC or change all our motors to DC? Not a problem, I think for my milling machine which I believe comes with a DC motor as standard.

 

Hmmm. This could get interesting.

 

Regards,

 

Peter G. Shaw

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

tlessI have two hobbies, one is electronics and the other is model engineering; I have no trouble with CNC and one of these days I may well go ahead and try and convert my mill to CNC, especially if my wrist/thumb problems keep getting worse.

 

BUT

 

1 I think the main reason many existing readers don’t want to see CNC articles is they have been bored s***less by some very long, software-specific series that were of little use to anyone with different software and no interest whatsoever to anyone with no CNC equipment. And in this day and age how many of us need to know how to go through a series of menus?

 

2 The same goes for g-code; I write a lot of assembly language, but I as the sort of person who will read through several hundred pages of the BBC ROM dis-assembly I can appreciate that 99% of people will glaze over when faced with a piece of code that is irrelevant to anything they want to do. By all means explain g-code, but have a meaningful learners series, not a line by line explanation of abig complex program.

 

3 What do we like to read about? Even if its something we never want to make we like to hear about tips and wrinkles, tall tales, new materials and how folk solve problems. We like reviews and comparisons, and we like to go ‘wow – how did they do that?’ Same with CNC – so bits of code that show ‘this is how I managed to mill a fusee using a 2″ diameter end mill, but not line by line about how I milled out eth profiles of every single part.

 

 

The real challenge is achieving variety and avoiding repetition – I’d love to write about how I fixed DROs to my X2 mill – but how many “how I fixed DROs to my…” have we seen? The problem with CNC is that the real challenges are how to solve machining difficult parts, but the articles coming though area mostly about ‘this is my gear’.

 

 

What we need is the L:BSC or ETW of CNC -someone whose writing is engaging enough to hold the attention of those with little interest of expertise and perhaps catch their enthusiasm.

 

 

Until they come along, yes lets have CNC articles, but lets avoid code sagas and too many decriptions of ‘how to fit a stepper motor/ball screw/inverter/DRO’.

 

 

Neil

[confused.engParticipant @confused-eng]

What about wind power ?

 

Seems to be a lot of it about regarding CNC.

 

Me, I design & build CNC systems for machines for a living but bought a manual lathe and mill for the workshop.

As my granny used to say, a bit of what you fancy and everything in moderation. Personnally I think there is too many Myford articles as I don’t have a Myford lathe but I’m not complaining.

Idea how to keep our machine fed, write articles for the magazine on topics that you find interesting and submit them for publication.

 

Philip

 

PS. how about articles on fabrication, forming, welding, silver soldering etc as my welding looks like a birds sh*t on the metal. I know, practice makes perfect but swmbo limits my playtime.

[mgnbukParticipant @mgnbuk]

I’d forgotten about solar power. But (serious question) is it capable of supplying enough power to run moderate sized equipment?

Standard installation by “A Shade Greener” on my roof is a nominal 3Kw – most I have seen on the energy meter attached to the output from the grid tie inverter is 3.1 Kw in summer. This time of year it peaks at around 1.7Kw on a clear day. A bit of high altitude cloud drops that to 500/600 W – heavy overcast it’s down to around 200 W. Total generated power per day varies between about 3Kw/hrs on a truly dismal day in winter to over 30kW/hrs in the height of summer. This is on a south facing roof in West Yorkshire.

Only trouble is I mainly get to play in the workshop in an evening ……

Regards,

Nigel B.

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

Posted by Stub Mandrel on 19/01/2012 21:08:04:

 

What Neil said here is worth reading so please scroll up a couple of posts to see it. No point me ‘quoting’ it all here again.

 

 

 

Neil

 

I absolutely agree with every word of your comments. You’ve hit the nail on the head in every paragraph.

 

Ian P

[The Merry MillerParticipant @themerrymiller]

I’m very much in favour of instead of writing the boring part of the CNC article into the magazine pages viz. the code, creating a link to this website where the code can be read in full to the delight of the code enthusiasts if that’s at all possible.

 

This would leave lots of space in the magazine for more equally exciting stuff !!

 

Len. P.

 

 

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