Metal Cleaning Using Vinegar?

[Dr_GMJNParticipant @dr_gmjn]

Posted by Hopper on 30/01/2022 10:00:10:

The rusty old tools I have derusted with vinegar would have needed more than a little bit of wire buffing. And I never have neutralized with chemicals etc. Just washed in water then WD40, which all tools need anyways in a humid climate. Found it much quicker than using the wire wheel on my 8' grinder when doing a whole box full of tools from a garage sale etc. I did it many times when I was setting up my workshop from scratch almost exclusively from garage sales, on everything from Starrett scribing blocks to Stahlwille spanners.

For a one-off I might use the wire wheel. But I hate the way it sprays muck everywhere, including all over me. Vinegar is much more civilized for the big jobs.

If it works for you like you say, then it seems ideal. I tried the technique on the woodworking pins because I thought it would be much quicker and easier using a liquid to put them all in together, but it just didn’t work – the opposite in fact because the bright pins I’d already done went rusty. I’ve now tried several methods and they’ve all failed miserably. I guess everyone has their go-to methods and gets the hang of their foibles.

[Rich Griff 2Participant @richgriff2]

Not suitable for everything, but try lemon juice.

Ocset double strength no added sugar 1.5 litre was on bogof so I got some.

Tried on rusty box lid. Submerged in the neat juice.

After a while, even the old goldish coloured hammerite was coming if as well as the corrosion.

It took a few days for every last bit of paint and corrosion to disappear leaving a paint ready surface, after a rinse and quick drying.

Will post a few pictures later.

RAF cosford use lemon juice to clean the wreckage of a wartime me110 ? Found in the channel.

Back later…

[Rich Griff 2Participant @richgriff2]

Well that worked, second attempt…

Try lemon juice, double strength, neat…

Back later with pictures…

Steel box lid paint ready after a rinse and quick dry…

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

I was thinking it may be down to the type of vinegar used. Gourmet malt vinegar and fine pickled onion solution vs the roughest cheap generic white vinegar. (Matches my taste in wine!) We don't know what additives the gourmet food products might contain. The generic white vinegar is sold for use as a household cleaner so it is "pure".

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Farm supplies Molasses is £9.50 for 5L

[Rich Griff 2Participant @richgriff2]

RAF cosford use lemon juice on the me110? Wreckage liberated from the channel.

Ocset double strength lemon juice was on bogof, so I got some. Tried it neat on a rusty steel tool box lid, submerged.

Later that day noticed it's taken off some corrosion, and the old peeling goldish hammerite.

Left it overnight and it's working well. Abraded steel to speed things along a bit, no elbow grease, and a fresh " charge" of juice.

It removed all old paint and most of the corrosion. Repeat and leave for a day, only about 10percent to go.

Repeat process, all corrosion gone and steel paint ready after a rinse and guick dry off.

Painted with no frills Screwfix red primer.

That was about 5 years ago.

Will post pictures of before and kids condition today, this afternoon, Gosh, it's afternoon already !

Later today…

[Roger BestParticipant @rogerbest89007]

I have experience of using vinegar and I liked it, you have to maintain your expectations of how long it takes. Overnight soakings and changes of liquid may be required.

For examples of variable results see my video:

vice restoration video

Times: 01:10, 14:46, 26:43, 29:11

What didn't make the cut was that it took several days to etch out the vice jaws, which were clogged with debris and rust. The crap loosened and came off and they came up almost as good as new which was amazing and very worth while as quality jaws are very expensive – if you can get them.

A big part of this film demonstrates the maxim of not using chemicals if you don't know what you are doing. There might be a bit of that in the posts above.

I am probably going to try some other techniques for other items, I think its a matter of horses for courses and you need to experiment to find the right technique and product for the application and your patience.

[Rich Griff 2Participant @richgriff2]

Sorry admin, cross over between posts and getting, please remove duplicate post..

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

If anyone tries removing rust with Molasses in the UK, can they report back how well it works please?

The particular type of Molasses used to remove rust in the US and Australia may not be readily available in the UK. UK supermarket Molasses is a human-grade foodstuff sold in small quantities – not particularly cheap, but why not if it works. Many different types of molasses. I suspect rust removing Molasses is the lowest-sugar type used in Cattle Feed. Also available in the UK but sold in bulk as far as I can tell. Not sure I want to own 1300kg of sticky rust remover.

Why do you chaps want to mess with Vinegar, Citric Acid and Black Treacle when the UK is full of Motor Factors all selling several different commercial Rust Removers and Rust Protection products? And I've heard a rumour they can be bought on the internet too. Is it the romance of rolling your own special mixture? If you want something traditional try:

Eye of newt, and toe of frog,
Wool of bat, and tongue of dog,
Adder's fork, and blind-worm's sting,
Lizard's leg, and owlet's wing.

Or Snake Oil…

Dave

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Citric acid does the job, but leaves everything dull grey with a layer of black crud.

Neil

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

SOD – animal feed molasses available in 5L in farm shops (Wynnstay group for instance @ £10.50). So that’s 50L slow de-rust solution if you have a large object to process.
Cane molasses or beet molasses best??

pgk

Edited By pgk pgk on 30/01/2022 17:56:08

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 30/01/2022 15:45:32:

Why do you chaps want to mess with Vinegar, Citric Acid and Black Treacle when the UK is full of Motor Factors all selling several different commercial Rust Removers and Rust Protection products?

because they are just phosphoric acid in buffered solution at ten times the price or chelates (an organic process even more expensive eg Evaporust)

We tried molasses in the Men's shed a few years ago. It only worked if you got the dilution right as per some recipe found on the internet and went mouldy.

Wire brushing is good but some nooks and crannies are inaccessible.

As I keep saying just get some liquid phosphoric acid and only use it by brushing it on not dunking things. I got 500ml at an ME exhibition about 20 years ago and it only ran out a couple of years ago and I do far more derusting than most model engineers I know.

[vintage engineerParticipant @vintageengineer]

A saturated solution of salt and vinegar will remove zinc plating from nuts and bolts.

[Dr. MC BlackParticipant @dr-mcblack73214]

I have had excellent results using Shield Technology's RESTORE.

I put it in a heated Ultrasonic Bath to sped up the process

MC

[Engine Doctor ( Phil )Participant @enginedoctorphil]

Phosphoric acid is still easily available online and not expensive . As stared above it not only removes light rust but converts deep rust to a phosphate that won't rust anymore.

There are moves afoot by our nanny state to stop us buying things like phosphoric acid . Sulfuric is already banned . Buy any Chemicals you use now before they are banned under the explosives or poisons act .

[DalboyParticipant @dalboy]

I have on order some Oxalic acid which they say is good for rust I will try it.

I have not ordered it for rust removal but for working on some wood so as I will have it will experiment

[vintage engineerParticipant @vintageengineer]

Sulphuric acid is still readily available. Just buy Oneshot drain cleaner.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Philip Fearn on 17/02/2022 15:55:30:

Phosphoric acid is still easily available online and not expensive …

Yes, no and maybe! Quick look at ebay:

• Lab grade (pure) Phosphoric Acid isn't what I call cheap!
• Dozens of useless Homeopathic "Phosphoric Acid" products.
• Hydroponic pH Control/Feed products that do contain a high proportion of Phosphoric Acid and are reasonably priced, hurrah! But I don't know what else is in them, so might be dirty or less effective than expected. However should be orders of magnitude better as a rust treatment than Coca Cola!
• Fertilizers that probably don't contain free Phosphoric Acid.
• Dental Etching products, a mix of Phosphoric Acid and Gum or Enamel. Pricey!

Anyone tried Bat Guano? If it doesn't work on rust, transfer to the kitchen. It's a taste improver…

Dave

[mark costello 1Participant @markcostello1]

I've heard it breeds a virus.

[Dr. MC BlackParticipant @dr-mcblack73214]

Posted by Derek Lane on 17/02/2022 16:26:03:

I have on order some Oxalic acid which they say is good for rust I will try it.

Thinking back to the days when I taught Chemistry, I recall that Oxalic Acid is Poisonous.

I advise caution.

.

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Posted by Dr_GMJN on 30/01/2022 09:49:50:

I can’t see the disadvantage of using a brass wire wheel, brush or Dremel attachment (or a combination) to abrade the rust away. It’s much quicker, and doesn’t saturate your parts in acid. You seem to need to neutralise the acid with another chemical, abrade the remnants of the rust, buff the surface and coat with oil or WD40 to preserve the finish, so using acid just costs more and takes much longer to achieve exactly the same result.

The idea of putting a crusty part in a tub of something, and removing it a couple of days later when it's clean is way more appealing to me than using abrasives, wire wheels, power tools, elbow grease and time. I would prefer to use those on things that can't be done any other way.

I've had a Dremel for years and I don't think I've ever used it without thinking what a piece of junk it is, and that there must be a better option.

[DalboyParticipant @dalboy]

Posted by Dr. MC Black on 17/02/2022 23:08:18:

Posted by Derek Lane on 17/02/2022 16:26:03:

I have on order some Oxalic acid which they say is good for rust I will try it.

Thinking back to the days when I taught Chemistry, I recall that Oxalic Acid is Poisonous.

I advise caution.

.

When dealing with many finishes even when they are not poisonous I tend to wear protective gloves not just to prevent any reactions but also to keep my hands clean especially with wood stains. I know that I also need eye protection and possibly a mask of some description depending on what I am using.

[Engine Doctor ( Phil )Participant @enginedoctorphil]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 17/02/2022 17:07:22:

Posted by Philip Fearn on 17/02/2022 15:55:30:

Phosphoric acid is still easily available online and not expensive …

Yes, no and maybe! Quick look at ebay:

• Lab grade (pure) Phosphoric Acid isn't what I call cheap!
• Dozens of useless Homeopathic "Phosphoric Acid" products.
• Hydroponic pH Control/Feed products that do contain a high proportion of Phosphoric Acid and are reasonably priced, hurrah! But I don't know what else is in them, so might be dirty or less effective than expected. However should be orders of magnitude better as a rust treatment than Coca Cola!
• Fertilizers that probably don't contain free Phosphoric Acid.
• Dental Etching products, a mix of Phosphoric Acid and Gum or Enamel. Pricey!

Anyone tried Bat Guano? If it doesn't work on rust, transfer to the kitchen. It's a taste improver…

Dave

Why on earth would you need Lab grade pure phosphoric acid for ourk purposes ,ie removing rust or anodising. 5L of 30% phosphoric acid is available for £16-50 delivered and will dilute to 15 L and last most of us years .

Jenolite was / is a old name in rust removal and is  just dilute Phosphoric acid. 

I used a hot bath of the stuff some tears ago to treat rusty bits of a motorcycle I was restoring.  Things like the chain tensioner and some specialised but unobtainable nuts and bolts. After a few minutes they came out totally rust free and were rinsed , dried and painted with some silver paint ( nearest modern equivalent is Rustoleum) never rushed again in the years I owned it. 

Bat Gunano ?

Edited By Engine Doctor ( Phil ) on 19/02/2022 17:17:52

[Dr_GMJNParticipant @dr_gmjn]

Is car alloy wheel cleaner (the stuff in the hand sprayer bottles) based on phosphoric acid? It has a similar smell as rust remover.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Engine Doctor ( Phil ) on 19/02/2022 17:06:17:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 17/02/2022 17:07:22:

Posted by Philip Fearn on 17/02/2022 15:55:30:

Phosphoric acid is still easily available online and not expensive …

Yes, no and maybe! Quick look at ebay:

• Lab grade (pure) Phosphoric Acid isn't what I call cheap!
• Dozens of useless Homeopathic "Phosphoric Acid" products.
• Hydroponic pH Control/Feed products that do contain a high proportion of Phosphoric Acid and are reasonably priced, hurrah! But I don't know what else is in them, so might be dirty or less effective than expected. However should be orders of magnitude better as a rust treatment than Coca Cola!
• Fertilizers that probably don't contain free Phosphoric Acid.
• Dental Etching products, a mix of Phosphoric Acid and Gum or Enamel. Pricey!

Anyone tried Bat Guano? If it doesn't work on rust, transfer to the kitchen. It's a taste improver…

Dave

Why on earth would you need Lab grade pure phosphoric acid for ourk purposes ,ie removing rust or anodising. 5L of 30% phosphoric acid is available for £16-50 delivered and will dilute to 15 L and last most of us years .

Jenolite was / is a old name in rust removal and is just dilute Phosphoric acid.

…

Bat Gunano ?

Yeah, that's my point: you don't need Lab grade Phosphoric Acid to treat rust! Earlier in the thread I questioned the interest in removing rust with home-made concoctions when commercial products like Jenolite are available. I recommend using them!

Bat Guano is a joke aimed at homespun experimenters. It's effective somewhere between Vinegar and fruit juice as a rust remover, so why not give rodent poo a go if you believe in that kind of thing?

Phosphoric Acid is effective, but buying the right stuff for a DIY rust potion needs a little care. There's not enough of it in Coca Cola or Homeopathic products while Food, Lab and Dental Grade acid is expensive.

Dave

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