ME page 217 & 218

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

Tom Armet claims ‘road legal’ Foden photo 2

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

May I suggest that claims about road legal vehicles invite comment? So here are my comments:

1. The number plate is not reflective black on white, and I doubt if it is the legal size.

2. There appear to be no sidelights, and no direction indicators (and so, no hazards)..

3. The headlights appear not to have a main/dip option.

Much of the vehicle is not shown in the photo, but I bet that a view from the rear would reveal other anomalies.

Showing the picture may not be a problem, but claiming that it is road legal(and therefore hinting that others could get away with using similar vehicles on the UK roads), could be.

I don't make the rules. I just try to interpret them fairly.

Regards, Tim

[Brian GParticipant @briang]

Could the number plate be a "show plate" and be replaced with a white plate when on the road? I assume that having been issued a registration number, the lorry must have passed an IVA. The article doesn't say if it can exceed 15mph, but if not, wouldn't the exceptions for indicators and main beam headlights apply?

Brian

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

Aren't there different DVLA requirements for vintage vehicles ? I may be wrong but any vehicle over 50 year old must have mileage less than 3 – 5 k per yearly outing, hence no road tax required, plus if it has had any 'modern' update to OEM builds then it's not classified as 'vintage'. I'm open to clarification…

​George

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

There are plenty of miniatures registered for the road, have you never seen them all leave a rally field on a "Pub Run". As Brian says the photo may well be of a show plate or the owner has been able to transfer an old registration to it. I know one of my clients has an old white on Black plate on his new landrover.

As far as I know none of the registered ones I have seen have or are required to have dipping head lights.

Plenty of long detailed threads on Traction Talk Forum if you want to read what is required by DVLA to get your miniature on the road.

Edited By JasonB on 30/07/2018 18:28:20

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

George, the models are seldom over 50 years old so get a modern Q plate

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Vehicles from prior to 1970 I think is the cut off date can be used on the highway displaying the old black and silver impressed registration plates, they are not required to display the current reflective plates.

Dave W

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Here you go a few miniatures mixed in with this lot climbing engine Hill, I've started it with some time ME Contributor Julia on he GMT. No front light sand the orange flashing one is a sensible option.

Watch it while you have a lay down Tim

And a whole bunch of them here

Edited By JasonB on 30/07/2018 19:08:44

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

Brian G: Why on earth have an extra plate just for shows? Why not just remove the legal plate if you needed to? Bbut you may be right, we just can't see what sort of attachment it might have. And I wonder if you can point me to the regs which relate to 15 mph vehicles?

mechman48: What makes you think this is a vintage vehicle? It is a recent copy (and at a different scale) of an old vehicle, but that does not bring it within regs which cover vehicles manufactured before 1930*. Not made the same as, not looking fairly similar to, but actually manufactured. As the makers of tool-room copies of vintage Bugattis found, to their embarrassment.

* The Vehicle Lighting Regs 1989.

This (including also the insurance rules, etc) is a complex area of law, and I wonder if an article explaining it all would be useful? It certainly would to me, living as I am in Wales and surrounded by quads with broken lights, no number plates, etc. Mainly used by the farming community.

Cheers, Tim

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Tim Stevens on 30/07/2018 19:55:08:

Brian G: Why on earth have an extra plate just for shows?

For the same reason people put specific names and numbers on their trains or try to match a paint chip. Many are modeled after specific engines and the builders like to make them as true to original as possible.

I think an IVA is not needed below a certain speed so that would be where to look.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Tim Stevens on 30/07/2018 19:55:08:

* The Vehicle Lighting Regs 1989

.

Tim,

May I refer you to 4. 3 (a) thereof: **LINK**

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1989/1796/regulation/4/made

The interpretation of a similar clause in the previous regulations permitted me to use my road-legal Bultaco Sherpa without lights … The debate with an enthusiastic young Police Constable was very satisfying!

MichaelG.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

On the number plate question I think the rule is the same for motorbikes in that a front is not required just a yellow/black rear so the ones shown on the front of these engines are not a legal requirement so can be anything the owner wants. Looking at some other pics of Julia's engine she has a full size car type plate on the rear.

[RichardNParticipant @richardn]

Regarding lights: I understand you can MOT a conventional motorbike without lights (i assume on the basis you are able to use arm signals) if you register the vehicle for day only use for limited mileage- ie a ‘normal’ bike can be used off road and on the actual road (without the danger of broken glass from mirrors and lights) but only during daylight hours which are defined as more than 30 minutes after sunrise and more than 30 mins before sunset so you can ride to and from off road locations.

I guess you can also do this for other vehicles- would you want to take a 2” steam lorry on the road at night?

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

The rule about 'no lights' applies to vehicles with no lights, and to vehicles where any lights are covered or painted over. The vehicle in (my) question is clearly carrying two lights on the front mudguards. In brief the law says 'nothing or a full set'.

I know of no option of registering a vehicle 'for day use' but of course a vehicle with no lights is not lawful to use when lights are required.

I draw attention to the fact that the Reg Number displayed is not a vintage type (two letters and up to four numbers) which would be appropriate if a vehicle was intended to be as originally used. Instead, it carries a two letters, two numbers, three letters plate, as used post 2000 only, and the numbers designate the year of registration, in this case 2012.

And I also note several claims and assumptions made in response to my comments, which do not match any of the regulations I have studied – which helps to confirm my view that this is a complex area of law and some authoritative clarification would be useful.

Whether this is for ME is a decision for the editor.

Cheers, Tim

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Could it be that the authorities apply common sense to these situations?

Reading the regulations 'dipping' isn't a requirement but a headlamp must not be "Used so as to cause undue dazzle or discomfort to other persons using the road." In other words if you have puny headlamps, you don't need to be able to dip them.

This may also help, it appears to be exactly the guide that Tim is seeking:

shirevillageinns.co.uk/register/rmte.htm

N.

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 30/07/2018 22:12:52

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 30/07/2018 22:21:17

[RichardNParticipant @richardn]

(4) Without prejudice to regulation 16, for the purposes of these Regulations a lamp shall not be treated as being a lamp if it is–

(a)

so painted over or masked that it is not capable of being immediately used or readily put to use; or

(b)

an electric lamp which is not provided with any system of wiring by means of which that lamp is, or can readily be, connected with a source of electricity.

[RichardNParticipant @richardn]

So one can have visible lights, so long as they are permanently disconnected?

I believe ‘daylight MOT’ is the (unofficial) term for having an MOT that may have an advisory to say that there are no lights able to be tested, but which cannot be a failure courtesy of the above legoslation

(Apologies I managed to split my post)

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Tim, did you see my comment that only a rear is required by law much like a motorbike. The front plate is just for decoration much like a locos works number

Regarding date of reg plate, if you give DVLA receipts for say the boiler they will give a plate for that year, if not you get a Q plate.

There is very little the DVLA need just a V55/4 and a V627/1 filling in. They will then give you a VIN number and once you show them that on the engine it Is then road registered and they will give you the plate number.

Edited By JasonB on 30/07/2018 22:21:17

[richardandtracyParticipant @richardandtracy]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 30/07/2018 22:11:08:

Could it be that the authorities apply common sense to these situations?…

What!?! And break the habit of centuries?

Can't see that ever happening.

Regards

Richard.

[Anonymous]

If you look at the Road Vehicle Lighting Regs exceptions list you will see that the majority of lights are not required for vehicles not capable of exceeding 25mph, 15 and 40 are also included for odd ones. A "daytime MOT" is a standard MOT test but with advisories that no lights are fitted/properly inoperable, this includes ALL lights including the front and rear position lamps which normally has no exceptions. I did have a reply from VOSA confirming this when I asked about it a few years ago.

**LINK**

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

A quick google produced this.

**LINK**

which is how to register your miniture traction engine and obtain a tax disc. Jason says this above. As far as I am aware there is no requirement for an "MOT" which I beleive is the case for full size too.

regards Martin

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The link posted by Neil and martin is taken from a post on traction Talk as I mentioned earlier with some other useful posts for those who want to "play" with their models on the road.

One of the advantages of a road steam subject is being able to go more or less where you want and not be confined to running around in circles like a loco and I'm all for encouraging it.

[Brian GParticipant @briang]

As far as I could understand schedule one of the lighting regulations, all that is required night-time use of a vehicle (other than an invalid carriage) with a maximum speed of between 4 and 15 mph are front and rear position lamps, a number plate lamp and rear reflectors. However according to provision 17, in order to drive on a dual carriageway to which the national speed limits apply, it (and any trailers) would need a flashing orange beacon day or night.

Brian

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Without any direct experience, I thought that models of machines like Traction Engines, where the design predates lighting, Indicators, brakes, MOTs etc were exempt.

Can you imagine a MOT centre trying to brake test a Fowler B1 (Full Scale or miniature )?, or Emissions testing?

For once a little common sense does seem to have crept in.

Howard

[Nigel BennettParticipant @nigelbennett69913]

I recall my late friend David Beale, who built a 9” scale Atkinson steam wagon in a cheerful yellow Hovis livery, describing how he went through the construction and use regs, referring to the end of each chapter, where it said, “This does not apply if…..” and so he was able to avoid all sorts of daft things like indicators and seat belt anchorages.

[Author]

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