marking / layout blue

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 08/03/2014 04:44:26:

Hopper,

It may be worth a look at this Wikipedia page …

and then at Fred Aldous

MichaelG.

.

Edit: for reference; here is the Dykem page

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 08/03/2014 04:46:53

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 08/03/2014 05:02:12

Very interesting. Never realized Prussian Blue was teh first synthetic color. Thanks for the links.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Rik Shaw on 06/03/2014 17:33:51:

On the subject of lining out, its all very well for some who claim that lining out and centre popping are not for them – they do it with the "DRO", but how many of us have a DRO fitted to our bench/pillar drills? (I bet there's bound to be one).

Rik

DRO? I'm still facing and boring material in my 1937 Drummond lathe, then achieving final shape of twiddly bits by hacksaw and files. I just got me an old Starrett scriber block/height gauge and a sheet of glass from a discarded computer scanner to upgrade my layout bench from jenny leg calipers and a ruler. It worked in 1937 and still does so. After all, I am making steam and Stirling engines, not rocket engines. Although, due to my not so sharp eyesight these days, I have made a concession to modernity and bought an "automatic" centre punch. Should have had one years ago! Lovely little gadget.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I just found this discussion about [branded] Dykem

… Like many things, it is not what it was.

MichaelG.

.

P.S.   For anyone interested in Pigments, this site  is excellent

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 08/03/2014 08:52:24

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Interesting indeed, Michael. Dear oh dear, another good brand turned to rubbish to save a few quid. It is getting harder and harder these days to buy ANYTHING that is a quality product designed to last more than a short time in order to create demand for more.

[Peter BuxtonParticipant @peterbuxton35723]

Hi guys,

I am not sure this is still relevant as most seems to have been answered.

But I seem to know more so I will add :

You can make some layout fluid yourself, and you can also make micrometer blue yourself. Damn it, I should start a YouTube channel…..start making wonga for the info 😀

Anyway, the layout fluid….

Fortunately chemistry was my strong point, so I bought 25g of "((CH3)2NC6H4:N(CH3)2Cl" which, to the uninitiated is Crystal Violet Stain. You literally need 1g per litre of this stuff, it is incredibly potent.

(If you need some, I have loads, hit me up and I'll send you some for the price of postage 😊 I'm never going to use it all.)

Next you will need a low flash solvent, perhaps an ether. I just use brake cleaning fluid, it works a treat, quick dry and you can remove with more brake cleaner. It's the same as dykem!

As for the micrometer blue, just buy it! It cost 4 quid ANYWHERE!

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

Often wondered where the term "Blue arsed fly" came from !!

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

Okay, I will bite and show my ignorance. What is micrometer blue and what is it used for?

Thanks,

Andrew.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

I bought a bottle of the brush on layout blue recently and it is excellent, the discussion in the thread seemed to refer to the spray on version which is unavailable in the EU due to something in its formula. Let’s hope Brexit brings a return to common sense, but I doubt it will.

Mike

[Anonymous]

Posted by Andrew Tinsley on 30/08/2018 14:21:17:

What is micrometer blue and what is it used for?

Micrometer blue is an oil based paste. It is used when fitting and/or scraping mating parts. It is applied to one part and the mating part put in contact and moved. The blue is removed from the high spots which can then be reduced.

Marking out blue is much thinner and evaporates to leave a dry blue surface; the idea being that marking out lines show up better on the blue background.

Does anyone actually bother using marking out blue these days? I've got a bottle somewhere but can't remember the last time I used it. With a mill and DRO it's simply not needed. For complex large parts I might draw the basic ouline with a rule and marker pen as a sanity check, but that's rare. I mark out on sheet metal that's going to be drilled/filed by hand, but I don't bother with blue beforehand.

Andrew

[Brian HParticipant @brianh50089]

Posted by Andrew Tinsley on 30/08/2018 14:21:17:

Okay, I will bite and show my ignorance. What is micrometer blue and what is it used for?

Thanks,

Andrew.

Andrew, Micrometer Blue is a non-setting paste used for marking the high spots on flat or curved surfaces so that they can be filed and/or scraped to make a more precise surface.

I have no idea where the 'micrometer' comes into it!

Brian

[simondavies3Participant @simondavies3]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 30/08/2018 14:48:29:

Does anyone actually bother using marking out blue these days? I've got a bottle somewhere but can't remember the last time I used it. With a mill and DRO it's simply not needed. For complex large parts I might draw the basic ouline with a rule and marker pen as a sanity check, but that's rare. I mark out on sheet metal that's going to be drilled/filed by hand, but I don't bother with blue beforehand.

Andrew

I asked about the spray on version on another thread – I used to use it (until I smashed the can nozzle) to spray onto items already in the chuck to help see where cuts were being made – for instance, down a hole to determine where and when the tool had hit a certain visible point. Similarly on the mill, a quick spray over a surface to see that a cleaning skim covered the entire area. Have to say I don't really miss it and with the cans running in at around €25 each, no intention of getting another one.

A marker pen is a good substitute but the spray had a higher chance of getting into hidden corners.

As for general marking out, I am with you – a sketch for a sanity check followed by careful use of the DROs.
Simon

[Brian GParticipant @briang]

Posted by Mike Poole on 30/08/2018 14:24:27:

I bought a bottle of the brush on layout blue recently and it is excellent, the discussion in the thread seemed to refer to the spray on version which is unavailable in the EU due to something in its formula. Let’s hope Brexit brings a return to common sense, but I doubt it will.

Mike

**LINK**

According to the allergen statement this product does not contain (amongst other things) shellfish.

Brian

[Philip RoweParticipant @philiprowe13116]

Posted by BDH on 30/08/2018 14:51:04:

Posted by Andrew Tinsley on 30/08/2018 14:21:17

I have no idea where the 'micrometer' comes into it!

Brian

I think it stems from a tin of engineer's blue that used to be available (might still be) called "Micrometer Brand" and the name stuck. I might even have a tin of it somewhere in the depths of my workshop.

Phil

[Peter BuxtonParticipant @peterbuxton35723]

Posted by Simon0362 on 30/08/2018 14:58:16:

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 30/08/2018 14:48:29:

Does anyone actually bother using marking out blue these days? I've got a bottle somewhere but can't remember the last time I used it. With a mill and DRO it's simply not needed. For complex large parts I might draw the basic ouline with a rule and marker pen as a sanity check, but that's rare. I mark out on sheet metal that's going to be drilled/filed by hand, but I don't bother with blue beforehand.

Andrew

I asked about the spray on version on another thread – I used to use it (until I smashed the can nozzle) to spray onto items already in the chuck to help see where cuts were being made – for instance, down a hole to determine where and when the tool had hit a certain visible point. Similarly on the mill, a quick spray over a surface to see that a cleaning skim covered the entire area. Have to say I don't really miss it and with the cans running in at around €25 each, no intention of getting another one.

A marker pen is a good substitute but the spray had a higher chance of getting into hidden corners.

As for general marking out, I am with you – a sketch for a sanity check followed by careful use of the DROs.
Simon

Really? Asking if anyone uses marking fluid? Try every true engimeers/machinists workshop anywhere. If you have a lathe it's quick and useful and for scraping. And any marking out, specifically high precision parts. It has a place in any machinist shop……end of, drop mike,

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

If you have a rather complex marking-out task, it can help to buy a pack of six OHP pens. OverHead Projection, that is – for writing on clear film. They are better for some jobs than ordinary markers as the colour is stronger, and the marking 'point' is thinner. And of course, a pack of six gives you, well, six different colours so you can mark the stages in a job, etc, avoiding confusion. And being pen-size rather than Marker size you can carry them in an overall top pocket.

Cheers, Tim

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Philip Rowe on 30/08/2018 16:09:40:

Posted by BDH on 30/08/2018 14:51:04:

Posted by Andrew Tinsley on 30/08/2018 14:21:17

I have no idea where the 'micrometer' comes into it!

Brian

I think it stems from a tin of engineer's blue that used to be available (might still be) called "Micrometer Brand" and the name stuck. I might even have a tin of it somewhere in the depths of my workshop.

Phil

'Stuart's Micrometer Engineers Marking'

I have an elderly tin and it's still available.

Neil

[Trevor Crossman 1Participant @trevorcrossman1]

Yes, Peter, I use marking fluid the blue Dykem version, it isn't expensive Walters&Walters sell it at something like £15/litre. . I use an aeromodellers ''flattie'' doping brush to apply a nice even layer over each piece of bright steel as soon as it's sawn off of the oily stock length. I have never bought the spray cans which are relatively expensive nor the small bottles, it makes economic sense to by a larger size and perhaps share with someone else.

For folks like me with less than perfect vision, and lacking machines with DRO, I find that it helps immensely especially in poor light conditions.

It does have another very useful attribute for those of us that cannot run a fully heated workshop, in that it keeps rust at bay when working on long term projects where covering the project in oil might not be desirable.

Trevor

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

Thanks gentlemen.

So micrometer blue is just "scraping" blue. I have plenty of the stuff, having done a fair bit of scraping. I just didn't know it was referred to as micrometer blue. I thought it had something to do with micrometers which in a way I suppose it has.

Andrew.

[JonParticipant @jon]

Used to have some White, Grey and Blue marking blue.

[Sam StonesParticipant @samstones42903]

My two penn’orth goes like this …

Up north t’other side of Manchester we called the greasy blue stuff ‘bedding blue’. (Nothing to do with nuptial discord.)

On page 2 of this thread (about five years back) I related a story that went like this …

When an apprentice was learning to read a Vernier [scale], bedding blue was often [discreetly] smeared inside a doll’s eye magnifier for the unsuspecting learner.

Getting them to change eyes for a better look brought on more laughter. If you haven't seen a doll's eye magnifier (jeweller's loupe), they look like this.

‘Marking out blue’ is commonly used as a very quick reference by Chris of **LINK** especially when he is setting shoulder lengths on the lathe. However, as can often be seen, marking out blue will flake and rub off quite readily.

For extremely fine, close up work, toolmakers in my apprenticeship era would apply copper sulphate to steel. It allowed a much sharper scribed line and, although less clear than marking out blue, the copper coating didn’t rub off easily.

Sam

[NJHParticipant @njh]

In the olden days ( back when Adam was a lad! ) I went to a new (then) secondary "Technical School". We had engineering lessons in a properly equipped mechanical workshop ( 6 lathes, two shapers, milling machine, drills, oxy/acetylene etc. For marking out there was a tank of copper sulphate solution to coat the work piece first. It was effective ( as long as the metal was cleaned first) and a very fine line was possible with a sharp scriber. Within reason, it survived the construction process!

Having said that – now I use the "proper" marking out fluid or, as has been suggested, a broad tipped permanent marker pen – both work well for me though the marker is better for small bits.

Norman

[vernon stuttardParticipant @vernonstuttard64763]

Marker pen will leech through undercoat paints even when removed with thinners

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by vernon stuttard on 01/09/2018 08:59:52:

Marker pen will leech through undercoat paints even when removed with thinners

Yes, I've had that problem repeatedly. Amazing how persistent that stuff is. Just seems to keep coming up through the undercoat. Anyone found a cure for this?

I also find that marker pen gets rubbed off by swarf and fingers during machining or drilling or whatever. Sometimes I just use a handy spray can of blue hammertone paint as marking out blue. Without undercoat or surface prep it seems to stick well for marking out purposes but is easily enough removed when its time for finish painting. Cheap as chips compared with "proper" marking blue spray too.

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Hello Hopper,

A quick flash coating of emulsion paint will 'stop' the leaching through of things like rust and water staining which is another manifestation of the same effect.

Brian

[RobinParticipant @robin]

Layout fluid is button polish with a dash of gentian violet to make it colourful. If your bottle dries out, add metylated spirit. Gentian violet is on eBay at £20 for 10 grams, seems a bit pricy. Has a lot of Health and Safety warnings attached but people use a 1% solution to kill infections in baby's mouth. Can't both be right, can they?

[Author]

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