Manufacturer recommendations

[Paul LParticipant @paull58212]

Can anyone recommend a company that could help me get some small components made that I cannot make myself, preferably in the East Midlands.

Every where I’ve contacted have said the parts are too small for them / there lathes. Im sure there must be a company who can help me.

If anyone here can manufacture this I would be happy to pay them. I need 4 off.

 

 

[Peter Cook 6Participant @petercook6]

As a question, what material do they need to be made from?

One possibility might be to get them 3D printed in metal. There are a number of companies that offer rapid prototyping using 3D printing techniques with metal.

[Paul L]

On 4 June 2024 at 13:53 Paul L Said:

[…] Every where I’ve contacted have said the parts are too small for them / there lathes. […]

 

 

Regret I am not in a position to help, Paul; but I am interested by that ‘excuse’

There is a widespread recommendation, hereabouts, that people should buy the biggest lathe they can accommodate, because: “You can make small stuff on a big lathe, etc. “

Mmm

MichaelG.

[Michael CheckleyParticipant @michaelcheckley34085]

I`m not sure the size of the part is the issue, maybe the tolerance…

I have a small CNC lathe that could make a part similar to that but I would not be confident I could hit the numbers without fettling after or be able to measure to the ball centre that accurately to confirm. Also the ‘sharp’ edge at the base of the ball would require special tooling so allowance for a rad (0.2mm) would be required.

I use machine shops that could make them but I suspect the cost will be prohibitive, PM if you think I can help.

Regards

Mike

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

For such a small number of parts it isn’t worth most companies even opening the envelope.

It looks like a finger for an indicator so it might be an option to get one as a spare part and modify or make an adaptor.

Else look for a clock repairer.

The ‘get the biggest lathe you can’ is only recommended for model engineers and the ‘I want to make my motorbike more dangerous’ brigade. For model railways and clockmaking small (but solid) lathes are suggested.

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

is it me or are there two or three dims missing?

[Paul LParticipant @paull58212]

Hi Peter,

 

The material is silver steel.

[Paul LParticipant @paull58212]

Hi Micheal,

The only critical dim is the 38mm to ball centre, a blend rad at the base of the ball is not a problem.

I will pm you as I have to get them manufactured somewhere.

[Paul LParticipant @paull58212]

Hi Bernard,

There are some dims missing.  I just wanted to give an impression of what was needed.

I have a 3d model (stp) and a Dwg of the completed part.

 

[Bazyle]

On Bazyle Said:

[…]

The ‘get the biggest lathe you can’ is only recommended for model engineers and the ‘I want to make my motorbike more dangerous’ brigade. For model railways and clockmaking small (but solid) lathes are suggested.

Yes, I know, Bazyle … but it’s surprising how often that recommendation appears.

MichaelG.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I’d be tempted to buy a replacement touch probe stylus and screw that into an abaptor that has your 4mm dia and the angled flat, most have an M2 thread and a 25mm long one would work with the adptor to give the 38mm length. Plenty on the net from about £10

[Paul L]

On Paul L Said:

I have a 3d model (stp) and a Dwg of the completed part.

A quick search for 3D metal printing turned up several firms whose systems will give you an instant quote and delivery date if you upload the STP file of the parts you want.

I haven’t used any of them, so can’t recommend. But it might be worth throwing the file at one or two of them and seeing what they come up with.

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

silver steel is ok for it dimensional accuracy but a bit of a pig at these dimensions

[David George 1Participant @davidgeorge1]

Hi I  used to make similar parts as these when at work. I made the stem from steel with a dimple on the end and then soft soldered a ball bearing on. The stem was warmed with a jewlers fine torch up and with some bakers fluid and solder was applied to the dimpled end to give a small amount of solder. Pick up the ball bearing with tweezers and warm up and dip in soldering fluid then heat the stem again, place ball on top and it will sit there. Warm up again and press down on the ball and alow to cool. It just needs a slight clean up with a needle file and wash off any flux restdue. These were to replace lever dial indicators some with 1.5mm diameter balls  up to 6mm diameter which would wear measuring ceramic cores etc. The ball hardness was not effected by soldering and fairly easy to replace once made.

David

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

I’d be tempted to buy a replacement touch probe stylus and screw that into an abaptor that has your 4mm dia and the angled flat, most have an M2 thread and a 25mm long one would work with the adptor to give the 38mm length. Plenty on the net from about £10

Jason, i’d also thought about cmm stylus but it need to look something like the drawing, Ive looked for stylii with steel balls instead of the synthetic ruby but without much success.

[Peter Cook 6]

On Peter Cook 6 Said:

On Paul L Said:

I have a 3d model (stp) and a Dwg of the completed part.

A quick search for 3D metal printing turned up several firms whose systems will give you an instant quote and delivery date if you upload the STP file of the parts you want.

I haven’t used any of them, so can’t recommend. But it might be worth throwing the file at one or two of them and seeing what they come up with.

I had a quick look last night and i was suprised by the types of material on offer. I was concerned about the strenth of a 3d print when you first suggested it but i will investigate this further.

 

[Paul LParticipant @paull58212]

Thanks to everyone for your comments and suggestions.

The component is a stylus for a guage but i think the design is a bit over complicated around the sphere. Essentially there needs to be a contact point 38mm from the face and 1.5mm from centre. it really doesnt need to be a sphere, i would think an elipse would be easier to machine if the only critical dim was the r1.5.

If it were made so the 38mm was around top limit the datum face could be machined to change the dimension. I could measure this on a shadowgraph.

Maybe if i adust the drawing to reflect this it may be easier find someone to make them for me.

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

“The ‘get the biggest lathe you can’ is only recommended for model engineers and the ‘I want to make my motorbike more dangerous’ brigade.”

Yes, but what about the “I can’t get spares for my motorbike any more” brigade? Those with the ability don’t need to ask the question.

Regards Ian.

[Paul L]

On Paul L Said:

Thanks to everyone for your comments and suggestions.

The component is a stylus for a guage but i think the design is a bit over complicated around the sphere. Essentially there needs to be a contact point 38mm from the face and 1.5mm from centre. it really doesnt need to be a sphere, i would think an elipse would be easier to machine if the only critical dim was the r1.5.

If it were made so the 38mm was around top limit the datum face could be machined to change the dimension. I could measure this on a shadowgraph.

Maybe if i adust the drawing to reflect this it may be easier find someone to make them for me.

You could have a word with someone like Verdict, and ask what size contact points they have
V2249 Stylus (109/22490)

Bill

 

[Paul L]

On Paul L Said:

…
Maybe if i adust the drawing to reflect this it may be easier find someone to make them for me.

Agreed.  For a request like this the drawing should be complete because the devil is in the details!  It’s important not to set close tolerances unless they really are important, because meeting them is seriously difficult, requiring extra time and measuring equipment.

The originals were certainly made using interchangeable part manufacturing methods, typically where a tool-room with high-skilled workers and advanced equipment spent a lot of time and money producing a bunch of high accuracy jigs, fixtures and gauges that were then deployed on the factory floor and used with ordinary machine tools and unskilled labour to bang out gazillions of near identical parts, more the better.

This contrasts with home-workshop methods, where a skilled machinist struggles to produce anything like identical parts. I generally work up to ±0.02mm, but I couldn’t do Paul’s ball end at anything like that accuracy.   (Might be possible to cheat by substituting a ball-bearing.)

Both approaches tend to be expensive for making small numbers!  A CNC maker service is a good option, but don’t expect cheap.  Setting up a CNC machine is dirt cheap compared with jigs and fixtures, but still pricey for anyone who thinks £20 is big money!   The economics matter: if 100 parts cost £100 pounds, they are a pound each (if you can sell them!), but 4 parts would be £25 each, oh dear.

A CNC service will need a proper 3D-CAD plan, the lot I linked to above say: We accept 3D CAD files in STEP, IGS or Parasolid format for CNC machining. We cannot use STL CAD files. If you don’t have a 3D CAD file yet, we recommend designing in OnShape as it is free and sometimes easy to use. The other option is to find a freelance design engineer to help produce the CAD file for you. We can recommend someone if you require help. The wording suggests they are happy to deal with beginners, which can’t be said of all companies!   I suspect their jaundiced view is caused by getting enquiries from chaps who need a lot of support and, expecting much, much cheaper, are off like whippets when they get the quote!

If a ball-bearing were allowed, the main show-stopper I see apart from time is the object’s small size.   I’m in the ‘buy the biggest machine you can‘ camp, which makes holding something that small in my lathe and milling machine tricky.  Not impossible,  but much easier on the sort of gear used by clock-makers.  Chances are I’d have a high error rate too, making it difficult to quote a price.  It’s the sort of job I only do for myself, and for close relatives only!

Turning a decent 2D-drawing into 3D-CAD suitable for CNC wouldn’t be difficult if that helps.   I’d do it in SolidEdge, but the forum has plenty of Onscape aficionados too.

Dave

[peak4]

On peak4 Said:

On Paul L Said:

Thanks to everyone for your comments and suggestions.

The component is a stylus for a guage but i think the design is a bit over complicated around the sphere. Essentially there needs to be a contact point 38mm from the face and 1.5mm from centre. it really doesnt need to be a sphere, i would think an elipse would be easier to machine if the only critical dim was the r1.5.

If it were made so the 38mm was around top limit the datum face could be machined to change the dimension. I could measure this on a shadowgraph.

Maybe if i adust the drawing to reflect this it may be easier find someone to make them for me.

You could have a word with someone like Verdict, and ask what size contact points they have
V2249 Stylus (109/22490)

Bill

 

I emailed Verdict with the request yesterday but no response so far.

[Paul L]

On Paul L Said:

On peak4 Said:

On Paul L Said:

………………

You could have a word with someone like Verdict, and ask what size contact points they have
V2249 Stylus (109/22490)

Bill

 

I emailed Verdict with the request yesterday but no response so far.

I couldn’t get their catalogue to open when I replied, but pages 5-6 suggest  you might be out of luck, as most are imperial sizes + .075 & 2mm
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0550/0924/7481/files/Verdict_Catalogue_Web_2022.pdf?v=1658921778

There are other manufacturers of course, such as Mitutoyo, though they seem to jump from 1 to 2mm

Bill

[jaCK HobsonParticipant @jackhobson50760]

Is there anyting here that might be pushed into service: https://mqs-shop.co.uk/collections/lever-type-indicator-inserts

 

Postage is a killer – you may as well but a micrometer as well to justify

[DC31kParticipant @dc31k]

<< There are other manufacturers of course, such as Mitutoyo, though they seem to jump from 1 to 2mm >>

He wants 3mm diameter.

£8.00 headline price (plus VAT plus delivery plus minimum order plus ULEZ plus TV license fee etc.) here:

https://www.allendale-metrology.co.uk/mitutoyo-20-9mm-metric-dti-3mm-diameter-ballpoint-carbide-long-stylus-103014

It would be easy enough to make a parallel 4mm diameter notched extension for this with a female thread the other end. Make a 6mm OD 4mm ID ring and superglue it on using a jig (gauge blocks set to 39.5mm from the extreme end) to set the 38mm length. The notch could be filed also using a jig.

There are other 3mm diameter Mitutoyo stylii available, some longer than required so shortening one of them might also be an option. The challenge is finding part numbers and dimensions. This might be a good starting place:

https://mqs.co.uk/mitutoyo-21cza045-3mm-contact-point-for-513-401e-indicator.html

N.B. check above link because it says 3mm diameter, but also says 1mm diameter.

See also:

https://www.higherprecision.com/products/indicators/mitutoyo-dial-test-indicator-contact-point-3mm-136236

Edit: have a look here:

https://www.hroberts-di.com/

Search for ‘stylus’, filter by Mitutoyo and then sort in ascending price order. Plenty of 3mm diameter ones. You could also try the same approach for the other manufacturers.

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Well spotted, I didn’t re-check the diagram, and for some reason read 1.5mm as diameter rather than radius.

In mitigation, I was on my first cup of coffee, and playing with a new camera

https://www.tester.co.uk/mitutoyo-stylus-for-series-513-universal-dial-test-indicators-o1-o2-or-o3mm

Bill

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