Making your own case hardening compound.

[The Merry MillerParticipant @themerrymiller]

I know that “Kasenit” isn’t around anymore (I think) but even if it was it would be still be pricey.

I propose making my own style of Kasenit from pulverised lumpwood charcoal and another magic ingredient.

I believe it may have been covered before on this forum but sod’s law being what it is I can’t track it down.

Can anybody remember what the additional substance or substances is or are?

 

Len P.

 

 

 

 

[The Merry MillerParticipant @themerrymiller]

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Apparently anything high in carbon will do – charcoal, sugar. I hear scorched leather chippings work well for the ‘pack in a tin with the work’ approach as the protein contains lots of nitrogen which gives a nitriding effect as well – that’s a gunsmith’s appropach I think.

 

I keep meaning to experiment.

 

Neil

 

 

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Chalk. CaCo3 Probably mostly as a binder but in heating it gives off CO2 which can keep oxygen away from the surface. If it has been partly ‘burnt’ the CaO produced might help bind the mix if fresh.

And I think it is bone charcoal so that there are no stray acids from the wood burning. Now I think of it the calcium connection there might be what gave them the idea of adding chalk.

You could probably try adding anything that might be lying around in a 19th century workshop. Honey decomposes via sugar to carbon.

Edited By Bazyle on 23/01/2012 21:23:18

[JohnFParticipant @johnf59703]

Hi Len, See this thread http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=32838

 

Bi-carbonate of soda is one “accellerator” there are others but I will have to look up–memory a little hazy! If you want me to do this please email me. Somewhere I have a formula. It will work without the addatives but takes longer to achieve the same case thickness. I use bone charcoal for large items and Kasenit for small items .

 

Just one thought are you wanting to use in similar manner to Kasenit or are you going to ue a muffle furnace? Different additives are used in Kasenit some being cyanide compounds and you will have difficulty obtaining them and I would not recommend for home use-pretty obviouse why.

 

John

 

[David LittlewoodParticipant @davidlittlewood51847]

Len,

 

Also this thread.

 

It seem the company which made Kasenit went out of business. There was a lot of concern expressed about it containing “cyanide” but as far as I can make out it was actually sodium ferrocyanide (sodium hexacyanoferrate II) which is fairly harmless; the equivalent potassium salt is sometimes used in photography, though not as often as the ferricyanide (hexacyanoferrate III). Either of these hexacyanoferrates will however release highly toxic HCN if you heat them with aqueous solutions of acid. Ensure good ventilation and don’t put it with any acid! Might also have contained some charcoal, I’m not sure.

 

If you look in one of the Guy Lautard books (The Machinist’s Bedside Reader) – can’t remember which of the 3 it was – there is a very good discussion of the process, including how to get the very decorative finish often seen on high-grade firearms.

 

David

[Steve GarnettParticipant @stevegarnett62550]

Posted by David Littlewood on 23/01/2012 23:13:20:

 

There was a lot of concern expressed about it containing “cyanide” but as far as I can make out it was actually sodium ferrocyanide (sodium hexacyanoferrate II) which is fairly harmless; the equivalent potassium salt is sometimes used in photography, though not as often as the ferricyanide (hexacyanoferrate III).

That was my understanding as well. If you can find a bulk food manufacturer you might find a way to obtain some – it’s additive E535 in the current EU-approved Food Standards Agency list.

[_Paul_Participant @_paul_]

Blackgates do their own brand of case hardening powder i’ve been using it for a while now with good results, it seems identical to “Kasenit” in it’s application and results.

 

Regards

 

Paul

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Posted by _Paul_ on 24/01/2012 01:36:48:

Blackgates do their own brand of case hardening powder i’ve been using it for a while now with good results, it seems identical to “Kasenit” in it’s application and results.

 

Regards

 

Paul

Hi Paul,

Do they have an online catalogue, I couldn’t find one on their site, or do we have to buy a printed one?

 

Regards

 

Terry

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Paper catalogue only Terry but I have just sent e-mails of what I want and got it no problem or phone them

 

They do a 400g tin for 11.75 +VAT

 

Or Chronos do it in IKG tubs if you want to order online and it will last several lifetimes

 

And EKP do 50g and 100g pots

 

J

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

Couple of notes for general interest :

 

Dry powder case hardening is rarely used in industry these days . The most common method now is gas carburising . More rare but still found occassionally is the molten bath process .

 

‘ Duplex ‘ did several articles on case hardening where they pack hardened steel parts in both case hardening compound and leather scraps . The ones done in leather scraps had a beautiful whrling mottle finnish and no scaling at all . They also described use of bone dust .

 

Nitriding is a different thing altogether done by a specialised process and which only works on specially formulated nitriding steels .

 

MW

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Been looking in my old books again. Found a couple of recipies. (1) bits of leather and hoof cut in 1″ squares, adding 3 layers of salt. Proportions; 4 Lb of salt to 20Lb of leather and 15Lb of hoof, adding about 1 gallon of urine after the box is packed. The box is well sealed, and placed in the furnace for about 12hrs, it is then taken out and quickly put in water length wise to prevent warping.

(2)Directions to make Sheehan’s patent process for steelifying iron.

1. Common salt, 45Lb.

2. Sal soda disolved in about 14 gal water.

3. 3 bushels of no.3 hardwood charcoal, sifted through a no.4 sieve, put the carcoal in a water tight box.

4. 5Lb black oxide of manganese, and 5Lb common black rosin, pulverize to a fine powder and mix with the charcoal.

5. Take the liquid made by dissolving nos. 1 and 2 and thoroughly wet the charcoal, and mix well.

Use a wrought iron box. That would make enough to keep most of the model engineers in UK, or most any were in case hardening material for years. Ian S C

[The Merry MillerParticipant @themerrymiller]

 

That sounds just the job Ian

 

Len. P.

 

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

I have read the details with some interest, I have at times used leather shards as a case hardening compound.

Small pieces of leather from an old shoe is fine and put the item (small) into a piece of tube and cook in a flame or fire for an hour or so. The result is very good hardness on the surface and it is blemish free.

It is good enough for wear resistant parts and they do not become brittle.

 

Clive

[colin hawesParticipant @colinhawes85982]

I have had great success using charcoal from a bonfire and slivers of leather from an old belt to case harden a roller bearing race for an ancient vehicle. The part was packed in a tobacco tin and sealed with yellow clay from my garden. It is important to seal the tin. I can’t remember how long the tin was kept at red heat but I got a deep enough case to grind the part in my lathe after hardening.

[_Paul_Participant @_paul_]

Posted by Terryd on 24/01/2012 07:16:53:

Posted by _Paul_ on 24/01/2012 01:36:48:

Blackgates do their own brand of case hardening powder i’ve been using it for a while now with good results, it seems identical to “Kasenit” in it’s application and results.

 

Regards

 

Paul

Hi Paul,

Do they have an online catalogue, I couldn’t find one on their site, or do we have to buy a printed one?

 

Regards

 

Terry

 

Hi Terry,

 

Jason has answered your query the catalogue was £2.00 with my last order, you could give them a call the lady I spoke to was very helpful.

 

I am also told some advertised case hardning powders aren’t the same as Kasenit inasmuch as they dont adhere to the metal and produce the familiar “sticky” coating also results seem to be less consistent/reliable.

There was another post about the success (or lack of) of certain suppliers powders a little while ago.

 

Regards

 

Paul

 

 

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

I agree nitriding is a different process, but I can’t see any reason for why high-protein substances (bone, leather) or adding urine if not to add nitrogen to the mix?

 

It seems that the ‘tufftride’ type processes use ammonia and don’t appear to need special steel alloys to work… see Wikipedia “ferric nitrocarburizing”

 

Neil

Edited By Stub Mandrel on 24/01/2012 19:24:06

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

..urea…etc.
This like any protein will produce ammonia on heating..less nitriding more a reducing atmoshere..might also keep carbon as carbon not as carbon monoide and carbon dioxide thus you should get carbon as vapour and no iron oxide (even brightening metal further)…
Btw japaneses swords are case hardened by adding rice straw between layers..then beating out and folding again…carbon folded into metal in very thin layers…7 folds means 128 layers…working at 1/2″ would yield layers 4 thou or 100 mirons

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

Carbon in the form of charcoal is not that good a hardening agent ‘as is’ . There are practical difficulties in that the grains touch the work in some places and not others and the less obvious difficulty that the direct carbon/iron reaction is rather slow .

 

In industrial versions of case hardening other materials are introduced to combine with the charcoal and generate either a much more reactive carbon rich gas or carbon rich melt either of which would be in good contact with the work .

 

As mentioned in Jason’s note above there is also a need to have an inert or reducing atmosphere around the work to avoid oxidation . This may require further additional materials in the mixture .

 

When the case needed is deep and the workpiece large additional problems have to be dealt with .

 

Case hardening is not a simple one way process . With long heating periods the newly formed case layers can de-carburise the previous layers leaving spongy zones with uncertain properties . Also long heating periods can have adverse effects on grain size and shape .

 

The quench process and quench rate also become very critical with larger sections .

 

To control the composition and grain form of the hardened layer better and to make the process less sensitive to quenching rates further materials are added to the casehardening mix . These are known sometimes as ‘moderators’

 

Our ancestors with their noxious brews must have worked out how to do all of the above by a long period of trial and error but ended up with something that probably worked quite well .

 

MW

[John CParticipant @johnc47954]

Also info at:

 

http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=4603.0

 

John

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

I’v been looking on google, and Kasenit no 1, still seems to be around, its still available in NZ, and USA.

Found a supplier of a substitute in UK Knighton Tool Supplies (est 1979)

(1) Case Hardening Compound Beta No, 1. 1Kg UK Pound 39.05

(2) Case Hardening Compound Beta No. 1. 5Kg UK Pound 139.90

Ian S C

[doubletopParticipant @doubletop]

“Posted by Ian S C on 25/01/2012 12:35:30:

I’v been looking on google, and Kasenit no 1, still seems to be around, its still available in NZ, and USA.”

 

Ian

 

Any clues please where you saw this advertised in NZ?

Edited By Doubletop on 12/02/2012 09:59:14

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

I saw it in George Henerys In Christchurch, they may have just had stock they hav’nt sold, next time I’m in town(maybe the end of the week), I’ll check it out. I,v still got more than half a tin, so I won’t bother about getting any more, but the old tin is getting a bit rusty, might need to get a new container before the bottom falls out. Ian S C

[doubletopParticipant @doubletop]

Thanks Ian

 

I looked up George Henry and see they are a Trade Zone outlet. Searched their website for Kasenit without luck. However, Petone Trade Zone has it listed, I searched Total Trade yesterday without luck. As most others must do I find the whole Total Trade/ Trade Zone thing confusing.

 

(for those not in NZ we have number of outlets that appear to be franchises of the Trade Zone and/or Total Trade brands. There are two websites with similarities in style and they carry mostly common products with some variation. Strange)

 

It will be a phone call tomorrow.

 

Pete

Edited By Doubletop on 13/02/2012 09:19:37

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

In the UK there have been 3 occasions where a pair of brothers split a firm and ran independently. For a while one pair in Birmingham who had been regulars at the Wembley show ran the same the same advert in ME on alternate issues with only the address changed in the small print.

[Author]

Posts