Makers and Model Engineers

[stewart woodParticipant @stewartwood82335]

Clueless malign The iPad point is ,, I don't think some people realise how many machines you would have to put together to have the same capacity as you have with one IPad . Perhaps it doesn't matter anymore , lets just get on with the job in hand using what ever tools are at our disposal . Some times its ok for the clueless to take things to bits , they may become experts . On the other hand they could sit and watch some mind numbing nonsense on TV or the (IPAD ) Stewart .

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 23/09/2016 20:31:27:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 23/09/2016 19:22:35:

Does that prove anything? I wouldn't bet money on it.

Cheers,

Dave

Average wage now, perhaps £28,000 so the C0 costs about three day's work…

Neil,

I did the same with the portass dreadnought lathe, which is about what the same bracket was for a CL430. I didn't do any investigative work but used a "means adjusted measure". and the price was roughly the same, around £800-£900, for an average worker.

(I couldn't use the direct conversion to new money because it would be ridiculously cheap, like £200, i can't imagine them putting it together for that selling it for so little, i imagined there had to be something else to it, the extra component was the value compared to the working mans wage of the day)

I don't say that to discredit what you've found, but merely just as a coincidental comparison i made. It would make for interesting reading to see if people in our older 1930 generation were richer. They did experience a recovery after the 1920's recession in the 30's.(the house prices point, is practically indisputable, they were cheaper, end of, expensive but not beyond the reach of the hopeful)

I don't know what makes the U.K average so "high" to be honest, all entry level jobs i see for full time would offer you around £12-£14k per year. This probably highlights a massive wage divide, fewer people earning middle incomes?(possibly the "london effect" bumping it up compared to the rest of the nation).

Michael W

 

Edited By Michael Walters on 24/09/2016 13:54:52

[Bob YouldonParticipant @bobyouldon45599]

Good evening all,

It never ceases to amaze me the sums some people now pay out for machinery, they want it complete with all the bells and whistles, it must have DRO fitted, gear box etc. I started out with a unidentified lathe of about 2" centre height, and a bucket of enthusiasm; the break through came when I managed to knock down a dealer and buy for £25.00p an ex lease lend 5" Atlas lathe, nothing wrong with the machine provided you remembered to gather up all the backlash before commencing any cut and all done with HSS tooling sharpened on a off hand grinder. I think I was earning the enormous sum of £5.00p a week as an apprentice and I had to give my mother 2 quid of that for my keep! I did finally step up to a Super 7 and no, it didn't come with a motor, I think the basic lathe was £119.00p, I still have the invoices and everything, motor, stand etc was extra. Good days and that old Myford still serves me well.

Regards,

Bob

[peter morgan 3Participant @petermorgan3]

Posted by John Alexander Stewart on 23/09/2016 00:59:49:

Peter Morgan wrote, in the thread about MEX photos:

I find the whole "aging demographic" argument very interesting. I respectfully disagree. Younger model engineers call themselves makers. the maker movement is growing nicely and is actually exactly the same thing that many of you have been doing for many years! but Makers and model engineers are separated by the great divide! Its like watching a bad family drama where the 2 factions realise they are related but don't acknowledge each other!

I have created a new thread, because I think this topic is important.

Short story; 3 years ago I exhibited at a maker faire, and had, in reference to my CNC'd Unimat lathe, the following two types of comments:

1) A Unimat! I had one of those, but how is it moving by itself?

2) LinuxCNC, Gecko G540. But what the heck is that machine it's controlling?

You could determine the question by the age of the questioner. Grey hair, question 1, anything but grey, question 2.

So, directed to us grey haired people (or, those now with no hair!) how do we work with those who know the computers, but not the tools nor materials?

John.

Firstly, WOW! someone actually read it!

That paragraph started off small and then I went into full rant mode and it exploded into a 3000 word document before being pared back down to a paragraph!

Where was the makerfair? I long for a fair in the UK along the lines of those in the US. one day.

I am currently 35 and so I really do have a vested interest in this subject. I will hopefully be alive until long after 95% of the people at the show a couple of weeks ago will be enjoying the great workshops in the sky.

Matt, I really enjoyed your post. That maker fair sounds amazing! I bet in the evening there was live entertainment with lights and steam and smoke and something high voltage!

The point I was trying to make really wasn't about cost. However I do wish people would realise that the cost of a completely knackered Myford that will never turn an accurate part is about the same as a brand new SC3 but perhaps that's a discussion for a different thread!

My point was that we are all engineers, the steam locomotive builders, the clock makers, the cosplayers, the book binders, The sewers etc… But I don't believe "model engineering" in its current form is sustainable simply because the vast majority of the people who do it are going to be dead in 15 years!

I don't feel comfortable at Model Engineering shows.

I don't feel like I am part of that demographic at all. I attend the shows because I love to look at the fantastic models on show and to get some advice on my own projects (and of course buy tools and materials). But frankly they are full of old people. The shows have to finish early because the punters need to get home for their coco!

I don't know what the answer is and this is evolving into that 3000 word document again so I think I better leave it at that!

Peter

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

I've been going to model engineering shows for the last 30+ years and the average age has remained an estimated 60 ish so either Model engineers don't age or . . . as they say , you do the maths.

regards Martin

[peter morgan 3Participant @petermorgan3]

they were allot older than that 2 weeks ago. very few below 60. even fewer if you don't count me and the kid I took with me!

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Possibly an atypical show due to the small sample size.

Martin

[peter morgan 3Participant @petermorgan3]

I had thought of that.

But the same has happened at ally pally.

The robots are gone, as have the model rockets…

nothing wrong with that.

But where have they gone? We don't really have a makerfaire in the UK that I am aware of. (Apparently someone tried it at Elephant and castle a few years ago but it didn't work out)

I would also argue that the number of model engineering shows has reduced. And those that are still about are downsizing a little.

Peter

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

It's true that the shows are changing but my point was that over the last 30 odd years the age range of Model Engineers has not seemed to changed much. Older people get replaced by yonger one who are getting older.

Most people who get seriously involved have fewer other commitments which generally means they are older, their children have grown up they are retired or soon to be. They have more time and more disposable income. Gross over-simplification I know but it seems to be the case. If anything modern trends for cnc 3D printing etc is pulling the age range down. Everything evolves and human beings will always be creative.

Martin

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by peter morgan 3 on 04/10/2016 14:33:12:

Posted by John Alexander Stewart on 23/09/2016 00:59:49:

…

But I don't believe "model engineering" in its current form is sustainable simply because the vast majority of the people who do it are going to be dead in 15 years!

…

Well I hope to be around for a lot longer than 15 years! (This is much to my children's disgust: they are waiting impatiently for their inheritances.)

But you've been guilty of some mildly faulty logic. There are plenty of ageing youngsters who will eventually replace older Model Engineers. Girls become mothers to keep Model Engineering going indefinitely. Consequently there will always be someone newly grey wanting to join the Borg.

I can't foretell the future better than the next man, but one possibility is that metal working will have to revert to thoroughly 'old-fashioned' methods because energy will be rationed. A more optimistic alternative is that even the cheapest home metal-working equipment will all be CNC and 3D enabled. Either way today's Makers will want to have workshops in their dotage.

One thing that won't change is the pleasure people get from making things. I'm all for the high-tech stuff but there's something about home-made clockwork and steam engines that's totally drop-dead sexy. I feel ME is an art form, and like oil painting, mathematics and music, it will last for ever.

Cheers,

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 04/10/2016 15:27:40

[JAParticipant @ja]

I think model engineering will always be the preserve of the late middle age for reasons already discussed. However I believe there is now greater encouragement given to those who are interested. During my apprenticeship no one ever suggested the workshop practices we were taught would ever actually be used. As for going to model engineering shows, I went to one of the model engineering exhibitions at the Seymour Halls when I was in my very early twenties and had real long blond hair (instead of the thin silver dusting I have now). However serious I was, and I was, everyone took the micky out of me. It was a very intimidating experience and one I did not repeat for about twenty five years.

JA

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

We do need to remain aware that the attendees of model shows tells us accurately the demographic of model shows and is not a perfect match for the demographic of model engineers. For instance not every model engineer belongs to a club ( far from it in fact) but the majority of club members are model engineers. The same applies to shows. The mere fact that there are specialist suppliers for both machines and materials and specialist magazines capably of being sustained by the hobby suggests that the activity is far from dying out.

On a different note regarding taking the micky I for one have always been very grateful for the help I was shown in my early forays into the hobby and I have always gone out of my way to encourage youngsters so we are certainly not all like that.

Martin

[Old SchoolParticipant @oldschool]

In my experience the term model engineer is very specific its someone who builds and runs steam loco,s the rest of us model makers don't fit that classification according to my ex club members. I did try hard to fit did the Santa specials etc but when I put my flash steam hydros on the stand it was made very clear that they were not representative of the club and not wanted. So I probably fit the maker group better other than being retired. It's going to be quite an interesting experience for me when I give a presentation to SMEE on tethered cars.

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